Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?

[Link]

Your god seems to come up very lacking. If God can create universes, should not God come up with a better way than frying His children??

I see your god as a creation of mankind in which your god values so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear.

Mankind wants to rule and control others. Mankind uses threats, intimidation along with trying to use pain in an attempt to alter the actions of others.

Could not an Intelligent God teach His children? Further, Could not a God teach His children without teaching them to use threats, fear, intimidation along with the use of pain to alter their actions?

Mankind wants payback, punishment, and revenge all in the name of justice. Isn't it better to solve the real problems rather than to hate and teach hate?? Would not an Intelligent God have a much better way?

Mankind destroys that which is not easily fixed. Would not an Intelligent God fix no matter how long it would take rather than frying the kids?

How little you understand God. For God to be at a Higher Level, God can not value those petty things mankind holds so dear. Why not? Just look at mankind's results. Clearly those petty things incorporated in society and religion, teaching so many the wrong way, will never lead to the Best Results. It is not intelligent.

God hides nothing. It is out in the world, not in any book written by mankind. If one stopped following and ventured into undiscovered country, one might Discover it has been staring everyone in the face all this time. There was never ever a need for holy books, religions, prophets, middle men, and followers.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

If God created Hell knowing that anyone would Go there, that would make God a Monster!! God is no Monster. Hell does not exist.

Intelligence exists far beyond the Beliefs of mankind. No one should allow the threats or fear of Hell alter their choices in life. Why not? It's not an Intelligent thing to do. We are all meant to THINK rather than be dependent helpless followers needing crutches. God does not want that for His children. Hopefully, no parent does.

That's what I see. It's very very clear!!

WE all have the power to choose what we value. We can choose to see the bad in everyone or we can choose to see the goodness. I choose to see the goodness. By nurturing the goodness, one can point others to the Higher Level which will lead to those Best choices everyone is really seeking.

God places knowledge all around us. Neither God nor I make demands of any kind. I merely POINT!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Turning away from God's light and streams of blessed treasures, to me, is an act of hate that can't be forgiven. I understand where you are coming from. And God doesn't know a person is entering hell before creating them, I agree that would make him a monster.

 

[Link]

The word ‘eternity’ used in certain verses in the Qur’an relating to Hell, is explained by the Qur’an itself to mean only a period of time (An-Naba 78:23).

There are many verses aside from the word "forever" that imply hell is forever, like "nor are they going to come out of it" and "nor will they enter gates of heaven until the camel enters/passes the needle (expression it won't ever happen)" and many such verses plus the condemnation of believing hell is for limited time (numbered days) is in Quran as well.

Also the verse 78:23 is a reminder of forever being a long time, not that, it ends. It means ages and ages, they will be there, it doesn't imply it's for a limited time.

 

[Link]

As for the "fairness" of the "test", you guys might of missed point 4:

(4) Three things caused them to go to hell per Quran and if one was done, they would have avoided it.

(1) didn't connect to God through his established way of connecting'
(2) didn't emphasized on feeding the poor humans in need of food (Yemen ahem Yemen, etc)
(3) would vain talk with the vain talkers

If any of these are avoided or positively done (negated), if one connects to God, the other two will be avoid. If one seeks to take side of oppressed and feed the hungry, they will want also the world solution for this, and would see that lies in accepting God's guidance and kings appointed by him for justice. If one avoids vain talk, they will realize the seriousness of the two above.

Any of these, caring to feed poor, or connecting God through proper avenues, or avoiding wasting time in vain speech over and over again in one life time, they would've attained salvation.

But when all three of these are avoided...

 

[Link]

God loving good and evil, was in context of people! Come on guys don't take my words out of context!

 

[Link]

The essence of it, there is a blessed tree, a way from God, branches of light connecting to the root which has God as the source, and this blessed pure tree is connected to all things calling them back to God.

Any creature who prefers the cursed tree and sustenance of Iblis and his forces and goes for the lower pleasures over that of God's beautiful names and perfect words, chooses the darkness over the light, there is dire consequences and they are forever if one dies in that state.

Of course, we can imagine evil and good to be what they are in our minds, but the reality, is the dirty tree has to be avoided and shunned and the pure tree from God inclined to and ascensions is through the proper doors and means.

Going to the households through other then their doors and trying to gain of their light from other then the doors, is a sabotage and is not righteous.

It's righteous for God to have those who chose the evil route instead of God's path of treasured waters and lights, to be punished forever.

 

[Samael_Khan]

It does, and we are supposed to reach out to God and the Imam who is the holy spirit that can help everyone defeat their sins. He can help, but there is still free-will involved. But seeking God's help in terms of being helped by a spirit from him and word of light which is the Imam of our time and the Ahlulbayt, is not only recommended, there is no way out of darkness of our sins into the light without their company.

I've made a thread about Ahlulbayt (a) being in the journey: Ahlulbayt spiritual station and their accompanying believers on the journey.

Aha. Are you from the Shia branch of Islam?

Also, do you and I have the same definition of spirit? You seem to be referring to spirits as people.

 

[Link]

Aha. Are you from the Shia branch of Islam?

Also, do you and I have the same definition of spirit? You seem to be referring to spirits as people.

I think we have same definition, I'm saying the spirit of Imam (a) is light that guides people out of the darkness and hence the leader/guide is spiritually with believers.

I understand holy spirit to be the power of God through people like Moses and Jesus, and Mohammad and Ali, it's by means he draws people back to himself and they are the pole of time. It's a station from Adam to the Mahdi occupied by God's images and those who are his word of light brought to life.

You should study the concept of Pole(Qutb) in Sufism. Perhaps you will understand better. Pole as in magnetically pulls in followers towards them and away from darkness.

 

[Bird123]

Turning away from God's light and streams of blessed treasures, to me, is an act of hate that can't be forgiven. I understand where you are coming from. And God doesn't know a person is entering hell before creating them, I agree that would make him a monster.

You greatly underestimate God. God is outside time. God is about what IS. Since you base so much on the physical laws of this universe, I can understand why you are blind to anything beyond linear time. In reality, that is a limited view.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Your choices and actions tell God and the world what you know and what you need to learn.

When others hate, returning Unconditional Love is the only real solution. It's the only way to God's light. In time, all God's children will see that the price for hate is always too high. Many will take many lessons to Discover this.

As we look on others and their actions and choices. one must be careful not to value those petty things mankind holds so dear like Judging, Condemning, Degrading, Creating a we are good they are bad, and such. These petty things can create Hate which leads away from what God is really all about.

One can never create a Heavenly state for themselves or anyone if one values all those petty things. It's better to Love Unconditionally.

Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Isn't it better for the other to help solve the real problems, guiding to that Higher Level than Judging, Condemning, Threatening, Coercing, Controlling, and Demanding?

God knows these things. Why are so very many Blind to that? Clearly, there are many lessons to learn.

If one can focus on the Goodness, then spread Unconditional Love, nurturing the Goodness, the World can change right before one's eyes.

I will know you have true Understanding when you can look at this world and see a Masterpiece instead of a mess.

The knowledge runs deep beyond the mere surface. God doesn't create a mess just like God doesn't fry His children. The Math is there. It all does add up far better than all the holy books in the world.

All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. God hides nothing. The questions remains: How much can one see? How many want to see or would rather hold onto some beliefs?

Many have chosen to be comfortable with Beliefs for reasons each must Discover for themselves. In the end, Reality will be so much better than all the Beliefs in the world!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Happy Holidays!!

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think we have same definition, I'm saying the spirit of Imam (a) is light that guides people out of the darkness and hence the leader/guide is spiritually with believers.

I understand holy spirit to be the power of God through people like Moses and Jesus, and Mohammad and Ali, it's by means he draws people back to himself and they are the pole of time. It's a station from Adam to the Mahdi occupied by God's images and those who are his word of light brought to life.

You should study the concept of Pole(Qutb) in Sufism. Perhaps you will understand better. Pole as in magnetically pulls in followers towards them and away from darkness.

OOOOO.... This is getting interesting.

Just looked the Qutb up on Wikipedia.

Would you say that the spirit of God indwells the Qutb? So in Jesus case God indwelled him and he drew people to him towards the light? In essence they are the light of the world?

 

[sayak83]

(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

(2) God loves us more then we love our children.

The Quran shows that family were cut off by companions of Mohammad (s) and even fought some of their own family, when it came to truth. That is not that they didn't have affection and care for their parents, or siblings, but they detached themselves at the moment of battle between them and when their opponents showed hostility and fought the Prophet (s).

Of course, they direly wanted them to be guided, but at the end, it's not in their control.

The issue is God does want to save us before we die, and tries to intervene through intercession of his chosen from humans and Angels, and try to guide us, but at the end there is consequences for having died evil.


(3) Why can't we just change on judgment day?

This is a question. Why can't we change after? The reality is, good will and motivation is not possible in this scenario. It becomes purely a selfish act and the prayer is purely selfish with no love of God in it if you ask for God to forgive you at this point.

God set it up that death is like a pressure that motivates good deeds. That is we wish to help ourselves and others in terms of peace and guidance and relationship to God and his chosen lights on the mystic journey.

The choice is that there is forever consequences in preferring that which is lower (darkness) over that which is higher (light) and to journey downwards and running away from God's light, there is consequences.

Of course, if there was no consequences and we had forever time, it makes this trial of life with all it's complexities and simplicities meaningless.

For life to be a lesson with no consequence or reward, would make the nature of good and evil a joke play by God, it bears no reality.

On the other hand, that we have to face consequences of our actions and the faith gains light from good actions and good actions repel and purify evil actions to bring one closer to faith if have no faith, is the trial.

This also shows for similar reasons, hell is forever, as nothing can calm down God when you can't do anything of merit anymore at this point.

(4) Three things caused them to go to hell per Quran and if one was done, they would have avoided it.

(1) didn't connect to God through his established way of connecting'
(2) didn't emphasized on feeding the poor humans in need of food (Yemen ahem Yemen, etc)
(3) would vain talk with the vain talkers

If any of these are avoided or positively done (negated), if one connects to God, the other two will be avoid. If one seeks to take side of oppressed and feed the hungry, they will want also the world solution for this, and would see that lies in accepting God's guidance and kings appointed by him for justice. If one avoids vain talk, they will realize the seriousness of the two above.

Any of these, caring to feed poor, or connecting God through proper avenues, or avoiding wasting time in vain speech over and over again in one life time, they would've attained salvation.

But when all three of these are avoided...

(5) Justice is a reality

Everything no matter how little or big is assessed. None escapes God's judgment, guilt is a warning sign of a justice taking full form one day with respect to evil deeds.

That is why in Hinduism one cannot get eternity in heaven due to good deeds. The time is finite and one may lose heavenly existence if he/she does bad deeds there.

In Hinduism judgements are not something God does. The nature is set up in such a way that bad actions have bad effects resulting in suffering for the doer of such actions, this suffering leads to reform over time (maybe over several births).

All beings are capable of change, some may take longer than others. But everyone eventually realizes their innate potential and identity as part of Brahman, and hence transcends all these realms of heavens/earths/hells.

So eternal hell, eternal heaven, judgement, punishments etc. make no sense and I would argue this paints a more rational and logical picture of God than what you described.

 

[muhammad_isa]

All beings are capable of change, some may take longer than others. But everyone eventually realizes their innate potential and identity as part of Brahman, and hence transcends all these realms of heavens/earths/hells.

So eternal hell, eternal heaven, judgement, punishments etc. make no sense and I would argue this paints a more rational and logical picture of God than what you described.

Theoretically, everybody is capable of change .. but whether they will or not, is another question.

An example would be somebody who is sent to jail, but refuses to repent and reform. Such souls do exist.

 

[Link]

OOOOO.... This is getting interesting.

Just looked the Qutb up on Wikipedia.

Would you say that the spirit of God indwells the Qutb? So in Jesus case God indwelled him and he drew people to him towards the light? In essence they are the light of the world?

Yes, you got it.

 

[Link]

That is why in Hinduism one cannot get eternity in heaven due to good deeds. The time is finite and one may lose heavenly existence if he/she does bad deeds there.

In Hinduism judgements are not something God does. The nature is set up in such a way that bad actions have bad effects resulting in suffering for the doer of such actions, this suffering leads to reform over time (maybe over several births).

All beings are capable of change, some may take longer than others. But everyone eventually realizes their innate potential and identity as part of Brahman, and hence transcends all these realms of heavens/earths/hells.

So eternal hell, eternal heaven, judgement, punishments etc. make no sense and I would argue this paints a more rational and logical picture of God than what you described.

If God guarantees reform, then God could've guaranteed it from the start. He could've made sure each soul get's it's guidance, but we see this is not the case. To me, it would make life meaningless if there was a guarantee of reform. The trial of good and evil only makes sense, in that death is a pressure to die good and not die evil. If we fail the test, it seems to me there must be consequences or it was a deception all along.

 

[Link]

You greatly underestimate God. God is outside time. God is about what IS. Since you base so much on the physical laws of this universe, I can understand why you are blind to anything beyond linear time. In reality, that is a limited view.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Your choices and actions tell God and the world what you know and what you need to learn.

When others hate, returning Unconditional Love is the only real solution. It's the only way to God's light. In time, all God's children will see that the price for hate is always too high. Many will take many lessons to Discover this.

As we look on others and their actions and choices. one must be careful not to value those petty things mankind holds so dear like Judging, Condemning, Degrading, Creating a we are good they are bad, and such. These petty things can create Hate which leads away from what God is really all about.

One can never create a Heavenly state for themselves or anyone if one values all those petty things. It's better to Love Unconditionally.

Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Isn't it better for the other to help solve the real problems, guiding to that Higher Level than Judging, Condemning, Threatening, Coercing, Controlling, and Demanding?

God knows these things. Why are so very many Blind to that? Clearly, there are many lessons to learn.

If one can focus on the Goodness, then spread Unconditional Love, nurturing the Goodness, the World can change right before one's eyes.

I will know you have true Understanding when you can look at this world and see a Masterpiece instead of a mess.

The knowledge runs deep beyond the mere surface. God doesn't create a mess just like God doesn't fry His children. The Math is there. It all does add up far better than all the holy books in the world.

All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. God hides nothing. The questions remains: How much can one see? How many want to see or would rather hold onto some beliefs?

Many have chosen to be comfortable with Beliefs for reasons each must Discover for themselves. In the end, Reality will be so much better than all the Beliefs in the world!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Happy Holidays!!

I think it's not a matter of underestimating or overestimating. It's the belief that it's righteous to retribute evil and be wrathful towards it that you have a problem with and I embrace. Also as God is infinite and absolute, just has he is the most compassion and merciful in proper place of mercy and forgiveness, then he is also to me, the most severest in punishment and vengeance in the proper place of punishment and retribution.

They are both righteous acts opposed to each other only because they apply to different situations. In reality, Anger and hate is from God as well and virtuous in it's proper place.

 

[Link]

OOOOO.... This is getting interesting.

Just looked the Qutb up on Wikipedia.

Would you say that the spirit of God indwells the Qutb? So in Jesus case God indwelled him and he drew people to him towards the light? In essence they are the light of the world?

If you pay attention in Quran about the sky reality and the sustenance of God that remains and is forever as opposed to the love of lower life of this world and how Satanic sustenance comes from denial a great deal of Quran will open up.

It also talked about the lanterns in the sky as something to hit the devils with and weapons against them, the lanterns in the sky is the Ahlulbayt (a) of the time.

With Mohammad (s) birth, heaven was augmented in power and even Angels were given much more greater power, and devils can't steal hearing from the heavens anymore.

A lot of Jinn came to Islam per Quran due to what Quran explained of that, and they recognized the power of Ahlulbayt (a) is too much, there is no way they can be defeated nor can they escape, they represent God and there is no escaping God.

Iblis and his companion are always in the belief that they can put a stop to destruction of cities when the chosen leaders come, but, a lot of the Jinn recognized Satan is a fool, there is no defeating the power of God on earth, and they are not Atheist like Iblis who believes Ahlulbayt (A) power is self gained.

Never has a city been saved by Iblis and his forces, and there is no changing that end time, though sorcerers and their devils may delude themselves about it saying this time we will overpower him and his forces.

 

[sayak83]

If God guarantees reform, then God could've guaranteed it from the start. He could've made sure each soul get's it's guidance, but we see this is not the case. To me, it would make life meaningless if there was a guarantee of reform. The trial of good and evil only makes sense, in that death is a pressure to die good and not die evil. If we fail the test, it seems to me there must be consequences or it was a deception all along.

Why would it be meaningless?
Growth and eventual maturation to enlightenment is guaranted, but it happens through ones own effort. And if you do not make the effort, you remain enmeshed longer in the net of suffering as a consequence.

 

[Link]

Why would it be meaningless?
Growth and eventual maturation to enlightenment is guaranted, but it happens through ones own effort. And if you do not make the effort, you remain enmeshed longer in the net of suffering as a consequence.

Because it makes little of our efforts in good deeds and makes little of our evil deeds, it's as if they have no reality. It's like life is part of a greater marathon which we have little control over.

 

[sayak83]

Theoretically, everybody is capable of change .. but whether they will or not, is another question.

An example would be somebody who is sent to jail, but refuses to repent and reform. Such souls do exist.

In a finite time, yes. But through multiple births and multiple variable initial conditions, there will be that ONE time when even the most recalcitrant soul is kindled.

 

[Link]

Also, from the viewpoint God is eternal and is morality is linked to our actions, that is his light is linked to our actions, it's as if our actions take on forever form. And evil deeds with God's light take on forever form as well. This is because the true nature of morality is eternal and forever.

This is if you perceive following the lights of Prophets (a) is nothing but what was given to the spirit at it's origin when the light of time was mixed with that of eternity.

 

[sayak83]

Because it makes little of our efforts in good deeds and makes little of our evil deeds, it's as if they have no reality. It's like life is part of a greater marathon which we have little control over.

Good deeds result in real growth and evil deeds results in real regression and suffering. Every action happens by our effort and has actual consequences.
Marathons are meaningful even to the slowest participant.