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Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In a finite time, yes. But through multiple births and multiple variable initial conditions, there will be that ONE time when even the most recalcitrant soul is kindled.

Sure, so a bunch of meaningless lives almost, and then finally an outcome. Doesn't seem rational to me.

Life to me is infinitely meaningful because the results are infinite and forever. This the true nature of morality from what I understand, since it's God's light, good and evil take on forever forms with respect to it.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good deeds result in real growth and evil deeds results in real regression and suffering. Every action happens by our effort and has actual consequences.
Marathons are meaningful even to the slowest participant.

In the grand scheme, it doesn't matter, result is the same, it was just about finishing faster. Seems lame to me.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
In a finite time, yes. But through multiple births and multiple variable initial conditions, there will be that ONE time when even the most recalcitrant soul is kindled.
That is not borne out by the evidence..
Why would somebody who doesn't repent in this life, suddenly change their mind in another?
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

(2) God loves us more then we love our children.

The Quran shows that family were cut off by companions of Mohammad (s) and even fought some of their own family, when it came to truth. That is not that they didn't have affection and care for their parents, or siblings, but they detached themselves at the moment of battle between them and when their opponents showed hostility and fought the Prophet (s).

Of course, they direly wanted them to be guided, but at the end, it's not in their control.

The issue is God does want to save us before we die, and tries to intervene through intercession of his chosen from humans and Angels, and try to guide us, but at the end there is consequences for having died evil.


(3) Why can't we just change on judgment day?

This is a question. Why can't we change after? The reality is, good will and motivation is not possible in this scenario. It becomes purely a selfish act and the prayer is purely selfish with no love of God in it if you ask for God to forgive you at this point.

God set it up that death is like a pressure that motivates good deeds. That is we wish to help ourselves and others in terms of peace and guidance and relationship to God and his chosen lights on the mystic journey.

The choice is that there is forever consequences in preferring that which is lower (darkness) over that which is higher (light) and to journey downwards and running away from God's light, there is consequences.

Of course, if there was no consequences and we had forever time, it makes this trial of life with all it's complexities and simplicities meaningless.

For life to be a lesson with no consequence or reward, would make the nature of good and evil a joke play by God, it bears no reality.

On the other hand, that we have to face consequences of our actions and the faith gains light from good actions and good actions repel and purify evil actions to bring one closer to faith if have no faith, is the trial.

This also shows for similar reasons, hell is forever, as nothing can calm down God when you can't do anything of merit anymore at this point.

(4) Three things caused them to go to hell per Quran and if one was done, they would have avoided it.

(1) didn't connect to God through his established way of connecting'
(2) didn't emphasized on feeding the poor humans in need of food (Yemen ahem Yemen, etc)
(3) would vain talk with the vain talkers

If any of these are avoided or positively done (negated), if one connects to God, the other two will be avoid. If one seeks to take side of oppressed and feed the hungry, they will want also the world solution for this, and would see that lies in accepting God's guidance and kings appointed by him for justice. If one avoids vain talk, they will realize the seriousness of the two above.

Any of these, caring to feed poor, or connecting God through proper avenues, or avoiding wasting time in vain speech over and over again in one life time, they would've attained salvation.

But when all three of these are avoided...

(5) Justice is a reality


Everything no matter how little or big is assessed. None escapes God's judgment, guilt is a warning sign of a justice taking full form one day with respect to evil deeds.

No -but it is not actually supported in the bible. It seems to be, but all verses must be taken together.

1 Cor 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I think it's not a matter of underestimating or overestimating. It's the belief that it's righteous to retribute evil and be wrathful towards it that you have a problem with and I embrace. Also as God is infinite and absolute, just has he is the most compassion and merciful in proper place of mercy and forgiveness, then he is also to me, the most severest in punishment and vengeance in the proper place of punishment and retribution.

They are both righteous acts opposed to each other only because they apply to different situations. In reality, Anger and hate is from God as well and virtuous in it's proper place.


You speak of mercy and forgiveness yet Hell makes that statement a joke. What action could justify an eternal punishment without the possibility of redemption even after the fact? This is not justice, mercy, nor compassion.

What purpose does Condemning. Punishing, and Vengeance serve? What purpose does Wrath and Anger serve God? These petty things never bring the Best results.

You say God gets angry and has wrath. What is the reason? Through the eons hasn't God seen it all? Now, all of a sudden God gets angry.

In reality, mankind is a controlling lot. When mankind can not control, mankind gets angry. Since religion is a creation of mankind, mankind has their god get angry in an attempt to coerce your actions and choices out of fear. This is Evil. It is not a Higher Level.

God never has wrath nor does God get angry. Why not? God already knows the outcomes. If God merely returns our actions back to us, in time, we will all understand our choices from all sides. In the end, Intelligence will make the best choices. See? There has never ever been a need for anger or wrath.

There is Genius behind God's system. It's about fixing and educating the children rather than condemning, rejecting and hating. Don't you see? These petty things mankind holds so dear will never bring the Best results. They only bring hate and hurt.

This is not the goodness you seek. It is Mankind who clearly does not really Understand. If you follow and accept blindly, you can be no more than they.

The beauty of God's system is that we are all learning without restrictions at all of our free choice. In fact, the system runs on free choice. Now, you can choose to follow mankind and value all those petty things mankind holds so dear, however there will come a time you will Discover these petty things for what they are. When this happens, the view you hold now will clear and you will see what actually exists around you.

Since there is no time limit of learning, God doesn't have to get angry. Why not? It's only a matter of time when all His children will Understand what the Best choices really are.

Forgiving? What is there really to forgive? You can only forgive yourself for it was you making the choices all along. Each person chooses what they want to return. Each person chooses what to learn. It's all so very simple yet so very Intelligent.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
@Link

I think that any punishment God deals is done with the idea of teaching us. We are his children and He is our loving father, trying to raise us to be good moral responsible adults.

The idea of an eternal hell just flies in the face of that.

And no matter how heinous the sin, I don't think anyone has ever lived a life that "deserves" eternal damnation.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That's interesting..
What makes you think there is an eternal paradise, but not an eternal hell?
Will satan have a frontal lobotomy or something? o_O
Actually I'm an agnostic on the subject of life after death. Your question was not whether heaven existed. Your question was whether some deserved heaven, and my answer was yes.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That is not borne out by the evidence..
Why would somebody who doesn't repent in this life, suddenly change their mind in another?
Different circumstances of birth. Different cobditions. Presence of free will?
Why won't they?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In the grand scheme, it doesn't matter, result is the same, it was just about finishing faster. Seems lame to me.
Apparently you will be excited if fellow beings fail and get eternal suffering and boring if all beings get to achieve their true inner potential through their efforts...
Fortunately God has different notions on what is interesting... rather what constitutes a good state of affairs.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I find it ironic that when it comes to the beliefs of others you are suddenly interested in evidence when there is no evidence for an eternal hell.

In my opinion.
True. Here we are asking if the idea is rational. I am claiming a more rational and ethically superior idea exists in a major religion already. I would like arguments showing that the claim is wrong.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Different circumstances of birth. Different cobditions. Presence of free will?
Why won't they?
.so what happens to their souls, over a period of time?
They presumably are unaware of what happened in a previous life, and are not accountable for it?
What happens to eternity?
..a soul just goes round-and-round forever?
Knowing nothing about previous lives?
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

(2) God loves us more then we love our children.

The Quran shows that family were cut off by companions of Mohammad (s) and even fought some of their own family, when it came to truth. That is not that they didn't have affection and care for their parents, or siblings, but they detached themselves at the moment of battle between them and when their opponents showed hostility and fought the Prophet (s).

Of course, they direly wanted them to be guided, but at the end, it's not in their control.

The issue is God does want to save us before we die, and tries to intervene through intercession of his chosen from humans and Angels, and try to guide us, but at the end there is consequences for having died evil.


(3) Why can't we just change on judgment day?

This is a question. Why can't we change after? The reality is, good will and motivation is not possible in this scenario. It becomes purely a selfish act and the prayer is purely selfish with no love of God in it if you ask for God to forgive you at this point.

God set it up that death is like a pressure that motivates good deeds. That is we wish to help ourselves and others in terms of peace and guidance and relationship to God and his chosen lights on the mystic journey.

The choice is that there is forever consequences in preferring that which is lower (darkness) over that which is higher (light) and to journey downwards and running away from God's light, there is consequences.

Of course, if there was no consequences and we had forever time, it makes this trial of life with all it's complexities and simplicities meaningless.

For life to be a lesson with no consequence or reward, would make the nature of good and evil a joke play by God, it bears no reality.

On the other hand, that we have to face consequences of our actions and the faith gains light from good actions and good actions repel and purify evil actions to bring one closer to faith if have no faith, is the trial.

This also shows for similar reasons, hell is forever, as nothing can calm down God when you can't do anything of merit anymore at this point.

(4) Three things caused them to go to hell per Quran and if one was done, they would have avoided it.

(1) didn't connect to God through his established way of connecting'
(2) didn't emphasized on feeding the poor humans in need of food (Yemen ahem Yemen, etc)
(3) would vain talk with the vain talkers

If any of these are avoided or positively done (negated), if one connects to God, the other two will be avoid. If one seeks to take side of oppressed and feed the hungry, they will want also the world solution for this, and would see that lies in accepting God's guidance and kings appointed by him for justice. If one avoids vain talk, they will realize the seriousness of the two above.

Any of these, caring to feed poor, or connecting God through proper avenues, or avoiding wasting time in vain speech over and over again in one life time, they would've attained salvation.

But when all three of these are avoided...

(5) Justice is a reality


Everything no matter how little or big is assessed. None escapes God's judgement, guilt is a warning sign of a justice taking full form one day with respect to evil deeds.

We know, of course, there is no empirical evidence for the supernatural world, which includes both heaven and hell. Except for symbolic communication abilities, humans are no different than other species, they die and turn to dust.

There are stories in the Old Testament about prophets confronting angels, and, in the case of God’s Duality in Ezekiel’s Visions, it appears as Ezekiel is in heaven. However, Ezekiel's was temporarily in a heavenly abode making observations. According to OT verses, Ezekiel returned to earth.

In Ezekiel’s description of living creatures (cherubim), with mention of “a wheel intersecting a wheel,” there is a reference to “God’s duality” The living creatures are angels of God. It is difficult to explain the symbolic meaning other than “duality of God.” Nevertheless, Ezekiel made no such association. Regarding a reason for OT authors not acknowledging God’s duality, perhaps, it was too unconventional. Whatever the reasons, apparently, humans have a difficult time conceiving God as a duality.

“As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.” (Ezekiel 1:15-16).

“I looked, and I saw beside the cherubim four wheels sparkled like chrysolite. As for their appearance, the four of them looked alike; each was like a wheel intersecting a wheel. As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the cherubim faced; the wheels did not turn about as the cherubim went.” (Ezekiel 10:9-11).

“When the cherubim moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the cherubim spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not leave their side.” (Ezekiel 10:16)

“Then, the glory of the Lord departed from over the threshold of the temple and stopped above the cherubim. While I watched, the cherubim spread their wings and rose from the ground, and as they went, the wheels went with them. They stopped at the entrance to the east gate of the Lord’s house, and the glory of the God of Israel was above them.” (Ezekiel 10:18-19).

Interpretation: For a literal interpretation, it can’t get any better! I propose the “wheel intersecting a wheel” is a symbol of God’s duality. Each wheel being equal, and both wheels intersecting, it represents the spirit of the two Gods within each cherub (angel). Their bodies, full of eyes, represents complete awareness of angels for the spirit of the two Gods. However, there are no verses suggesting the intersecting wheels are symbols for God’s duality. Again, it is difficult to believe God hiding his duality from his chosen people. Again, freewill plays an important part in interpretation. One has an opportunity to accept or reject ideas related to God’s duality, or, regardless of truthfulness, to concoct pleasing stories, or stories to satisfy oneself.
 
Last edited:

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

(2) God loves us more then we love our children.

The Quran shows that family were cut off by companions of Mohammad (s) and even fought some of their own family, when it came to truth. That is not that they didn't have affection and care for their parents, or siblings, but they detached themselves at the moment of battle between them and when their opponents showed hostility and fought the Prophet (s).

Of course, they direly wanted them to be guided, but at the end, it's not in their control.

The issue is God does want to save us before we die, and tries to intervene through intercession of his chosen from humans and Angels, and try to guide us, but at the end there is consequences for having died evil.


(3) Why can't we just change on judgment day?

This is a question. Why can't we change after? The reality is, good will and motivation is not possible in this scenario. It becomes purely a selfish act and the prayer is purely selfish with no love of God in it if you ask for God to forgive you at this point.

God set it up that death is like a pressure that motivates good deeds. That is we wish to help ourselves and others in terms of peace and guidance and relationship to God and his chosen lights on the mystic journey.

The choice is that there is forever consequences in preferring that which is lower (darkness) over that which is higher (light) and to journey downwards and running away from God's light, there is consequences.

Of course, if there was no consequences and we had forever time, it makes this trial of life with all it's complexities and simplicities meaningless.

For life to be a lesson with no consequence or reward, would make the nature of good and evil a joke play by God, it bears no reality.

On the other hand, that we have to face consequences of our actions and the faith gains light from good actions and good actions repel and purify evil actions to bring one closer to faith if have no faith, is the trial.

This also shows for similar reasons, hell is forever, as nothing can calm down God when you can't do anything of merit anymore at this point.

(4) Three things caused them to go to hell per Quran and if one was done, they would have avoided it.

(1) didn't connect to God through his established way of connecting'
(2) didn't emphasized on feeding the poor humans in need of food (Yemen ahem Yemen, etc)
(3) would vain talk with the vain talkers

If any of these are avoided or positively done (negated), if one connects to God, the other two will be avoid. If one seeks to take side of oppressed and feed the hungry, they will want also the world solution for this, and would see that lies in accepting God's guidance and kings appointed by him for justice. If one avoids vain talk, they will realize the seriousness of the two above.

Any of these, caring to feed poor, or connecting God through proper avenues, or avoiding wasting time in vain speech over and over again in one life time, they would've attained salvation.

But when all three of these are avoided...

(5) Justice is a reality


Everything no matter how little or big is assessed. None escapes God's judgment, guilt is a warning sign of a justice taking full form one day with respect to evil deeds.
Neither eternal heaven nor hell are rational or reasonable concepts once you go beyond the primitive wishful thinking of those struggling with a difficult life, a fear of death, or people getting away with injustice.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
A loving God towards people who die evil is not possible
God can forgive any and all sins.

but a loving God who loves those who die good and forgives their evil deeds
If you admit that god forgives those who do evil deeds, why do you think he sends people to hell who have never done evil deeds?

A God who loves good and evil, seems unbalanced to me.
God deliberately causes the death and suffering of millions, and refuses to stop the death and suffering of innocent children, even when he is asked to by good people, and he never apologises or asks forgiveness for it . Therefore god is more evil than the murderer who kills one person and does not ask forgiveness.
 
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