Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?

[Link]

Good and Evil are subjective. One man's Good is another Man's Evil. We 'are' all free to be Evil, fortunately, most of us choose not to be. There is no cosmic authority passing judgment on our actions, we do that ourselves as Plato revealed.

I believed the blessed pure word of God and God's sustenance from the blessed tree, cannot be compared to the dirty tree and the heads of devils from it, if we choose the latter, this is truly evil. It's as evil as it gets.

To have preferred running away from God's light towards the darkness and enjoying the illusions thereof from Iblis, over the truth and higher light and sustenance that results from perseverance and constant connection to God (Salah), has consequences.

Good and evil are subjective to confused individuals and people who equate in their love of God others or love others more then God, or who seek no proof for their path and religion. Those who seek mental clarity from God and insights from him, to them, they know good and evil with clear light.

Those who rely on a clear proof from God, they feel no thirst towards the delusional world Satan calls to.

Satan offers quick spirituality and powers and offers demonic energy at our hands, while God wants us to download slowly through patience and constantly turning and reflect because the insights and knowledge is bigger and greater and the power we receive will in turn be much greater and if we connect to the higher pure streams from God and rely on his sustenance that is everlasting, we won't need anything else, God suffices his servants.

 

[EtuMalku]

I believed the blessed pure word of God and God's sustenance from the blessed tree, cannot be compared to the dirty tree and the heads of devils from it, if we choose the latter, this is truly evil. It's as evil as it gets.

To have preferred running away from God's light towards the darkness and enjoying the illusions thereof from Iblis, over the truth and higher light and sustenance that results from perseverance and constant connection to God (Salah), has consequences.

Good and evil are subjective to confused individuals and people who equate in their love of God others or love others more then God, or who seek no proof for their path and religion. Those who seek mental clarity from God and insights from him, to them, they know good and evil with clear light.

Those who rely on a clear proof from God, they feel no thirst towards the delusional world Satan calls to.

Satan offers quick spirituality and powers and offers demonic energy at our hands, while God wants us to download slowly through patience and constantly turning and reflect because the insights and knowledge is bigger and greater and the power we receive will in turn be much greater and if we connect to the higher pure streams from God and rely on his sustenance that is everlasting, we won't need anything else, God suffices his servants.

I don't accept anything you just said. But, you are entitled to your beliefs.

 

[Link]

I don't accept anything you just said. But, you are entitled to your beliefs.

For you is your religion and for me is my religion(end of Surah Kaffiroon).

 

[EtuMalku]

For you is your religion and for me is my religion(end of Surah Kaffiroon).

Are you saying that Islam doesn't condemn other beliefs? What about these verses?

Muslims are told to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.

Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last major chapters that Muhammad narrated - hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"There is no compulsion in religion...".

Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." This is one of the verses that abrogates 2:256, since prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat (see below). Some say that the textual context limits the application of this verse to non-Muslims in Arabia at the time of narration. While there is some merit to this, it does not change the fact that the Quran is sanctioning violence as a means of coercing religion.

Quran (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"In conjunction with the preceding passage, this confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living with the Muslim tribe who may not be true believers, but must pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?

Quran (2:193) - "And fight them until fitna is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase here is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?" But didn't the earlier verse (2:256) state that there is "no compulsion in religion"? This contradiction is resolved by abrogation - where the later verse supersedes the earlier one.

 

[Link]

Are you saying that Islam doesn't condemn other beliefs? What about these verses?

Muslims are told to fight unbelievers until they are either dead, converted to Islam, or in a permanent state of subjugation under Muslim domination. Allowing people of other faiths to live and worship independently of Islamic rule is not an option.

Quran (8:38-39) - “Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven... And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.” Translation from the Noble Quran

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last major chapters that Muhammad narrated - hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"There is no compulsion in religion...".

Quran (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." This is one of the verses that abrogates 2:256, since prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat (see below). Some say that the textual context limits the application of this verse to non-Muslims in Arabia at the time of narration. While there is some merit to this, it does not change the fact that the Quran is sanctioning violence as a means of coercing religion.

Quran (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"In conjunction with the preceding passage, this confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam. Quran (9:56-57) - "And they swear by Allah that they are most surely of you, and they are not of you, but they are a people who are afraid (of you). If they could find a refuge or cave or a place to enter into, they would certainly have turned thereto, running away in all haste." This refers to people living with the Muslim tribe who may not be true believers, but must pretend to be in order to survive. They have no safe refuge to escape the Muslims. If Islam were a religion of peace, then why the fear?

Quran (2:193) - "And fight them until fitna is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase here is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."

Qur'an (3:83) - "Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly or by compulsion?" But didn't the earlier verse (2:256) state that there is "no compulsion in religion"? This contradiction is resolved by abrogation - where the later verse supersedes the earlier one.

We've had threads about these verses and this topic. This is way off-topic.

 

[Link]

I will make a thread about this topic if you wish. We can a start a new thread, but it's way off-topic here.

 

[EtuMalku]

We've had threads about these verses and this topic. This is way off-topic.

Not off-topic, I simply pointed out my evidence for not accepting your reply.

 

[EtuMalku]

I will make a thread about this topic if you wish. We can a start a new thread, but it's way off-topic here.

No need, I have little interest in discussing Islam with anyone.

 

[Link]

Not off-topic, I simply pointed out my evidence for not accepting your reply.

The topic is about hell and it's forever nature, arguments for and against, and you want to talk about verses about fighting and compulsion in religion. Sorry it's off-topic.

We can make a thread about it if you wish, but I won't discuss it further here.

 

[EtuMalku]

The topic is about hell and it's forever nature, arguments for and against, and you want to talk about verses about fighting and compulsion in religion. Sorry it's off-topic.

We can make a thread about it if you wish, but I won't discuss it further here.

I commented on your topic. You countered with your religious beliefs. I then explained I do not accept those beliefs. Then you forced your beliefs on me, to which I replied.

Just to reiterate, the idea of Hell for eternity only works if you accept that idea, or if it is true, which I see no evidence for it to be true. However, it is quite a rational condemning concept if a religion wishes to place fear and guilt onto its adherents in order to maintain control of them, which is how I see the idea of Hell being used.

 

[Link]

Islam doesn't hide God is trying to control us and we ought to submit to him. I think accountability is a good thing, and fearing evil consequences and hoping reward is what makes life infinitely meaningful. There is forever consequences if you die evil and forever reward if you die good. That's justice and I believe in justice. God tell us and reminds us the way it is, and reminds us of life and all the signs in it, to remind us that we are accountable.

There are levels of paradise too, so he wants us to race in good deeds and this is just a short life, we just go to live it in obedience to God.

God forgives if we repent to him and change our ways, otherwise, if we are stubborn and arrogant towards his signs and proofs of guidance, then we deserve a similar hateful reply from God. Of course, God being powerful, we can't damage him with our hate, but he will be able to damage us and torture us, seems like he get's the last move and so was always the true king of the world regardless of who claims to be authority outwardly.

 

[EtuMalku]

Islam doesn't hide God is trying to control us and we ought to submit to him. I think accountability is a good thing, and fearing evil consequences and hoping reward is what makes life infinitely meaningful. There is forever consequences if you die evil and forever reward if you die good. That's justice and I believe in justice. God tell us and reminds us the way it is, and reminds us of life and all the signs in it, to remind us that we are accountable.

God forgives if we repent to him and change our ways, otherwise, if we are stubborn and arrogant towards his signs and proofs of guidance, then we deserve a similar hateful reply from God. Of course, God being powerful, we can't damage him with our hate, but he will be able to damage us and torture us, seems like he get's the last move and so was always the true king of the world regardless of who claims to be authority outwardly.

There is no god to submit to. I think believing there is some form of reward and punishment is a deception of certain religions.

 

[Link]

There is no god to submit to. I think believing there is some form of reward and punishment is a deception of certain religions.

The source of power and sustenance and light is God, he is the light of all light, and we are defined in his vision (the fact we are defined in his vision proves his existence to me beyond doubt). To me that is clear.

I agree if there is no God, there is no hell or heaven. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

 

[EtuMalku]

The source of power and sustenance and light is God, he is the light of all light, and we are defined in his vision (the fact we are defined in his vision proves his existence to me beyond doubt). To me that is clear.

I agree if there is no God, there is no hell or heaven. I'm not sure where you are going with this.

You posted this "Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?" in 'Religious Debates'. . . so, I am debating it.
If you just wanted Muslims to discuss this then maybe it would be better in an Islam DIR?

 

[Link]

You posted this "Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?" in 'Religious Debates'. . . so, I am debating it.
If you just wanted Muslims to discuss this then maybe it would be better in an Islam DIR?

Other members (non-Muslims) discussed it. I don't have a problem discussing it with you.

I just don't want to go way off-topic. The topic if there is a God or not, would be off-topic.

Yes, hell and heaven would be irrational if there is no God, but the topic is not about whether God exists or not although you would be right, it would be irrational and control mechanism by falsehood if God doesn't exist.

It's about if God exists (and I am sure God does, but that's off-topic), is hell a rational concept to hold?

Everyone is having a good discussion - on point - I just trying to keep the topic on this subject.

 

[EtuMalku]

Other members (non-Muslims) discussed it. I don't have a problem discussing it with you.

I just don't want to go way off-topic. The topic if there is a God or not, would be off-topic.

Yes, hell and heaven would be irrational if there is no God, but the topic is not about whether God exists or not although you would be right, it would be irrational and control mechanism by falsehood if God doesn't exist.

It's about if God exists (and I am sure God does, but that's off-topic), is hell a rational concept to hold?

Everyone is having a good discussion - on point - I just trying to keep the topic on this subject.

I see. You should have premised that in the beginning.

 

[Link]

I see. You should have premised that in the beginning.

Maybe, to me it should be understood, a topic is to be particular about the subject although every topic has branches going to a root or further expanding it and in a way everything can be chained back to it directly or indirectly.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So heaven and hell are simply conditions that people experience depending on circumstance, and they can change that experience as they see fit, like switching a light on and off.

It is a freewill choice.

Choose to follow the Light, which are the virtues given by God, or turn away from that light and move towards the darkness.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

..eventually is one of those words that leave us wondering when..
..when exactly, will a psychopath be "cured" ?

Psychopathy has often been considered untreatable.
...
People afflicted with psychopathy are generally unmotivated to seek treatment for their condition, and can be uncooperative in therapy.
-wiki-

G-d knows best why He has created human beings who are capable of choosing the wrong path in life. Some people show remorse, whilst others do not.
That is just the way it is. It is possible that we can destroy ourselves through spite and envy. It is real.
On the other hand, it is possible to exceed in righteousness and be highly respected. G-d loves a trier.

Since psycopathy is a disease, it is tied with physical and genetic factors that will not extend to the next life.
In Hinduism, the explanation is simple of why people are certain ways. Past lives as well as present circumstances jointly create mental habits that trap people into certain ways of thinking and behaving. Human character is classified into three types. Those that are driven by fear, ignorance, insecurity, laziness of habits (Tamas). Those that are driven by self interested strivings, desires and passions (Rajas). And those that are driven by wisdom, compassion, spirituality and genrosity (Sattva). Each being's character is a mixture, but may be dominated by one or the other based on the stage of journey through lives they are in. Past actions leave their trace but current actions can add and midify that. So it goes.

 

[danieldemol]

Since psycopathy is a disease, it is tied with physical and genetic factors that will not extend to the next life.

I agree wholeheartedly with this much. It is a shame that Abrahamic religion seems to have no understanding of physical affliction and in cases such as the religion of the OP sees the correct mode of treatment for physical defects to be eternal burning and torment.

In my opinion.