Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?

[KWED]

They are to me very rational concepts as this entire creation is that of opposites.

Hot - cold.
Light - Darkness.
Heaven - Hell.
Love - hate.

So a good analogy to understand heaven and hell is that of light and Darkness.

Darkness is the absence of light, darkness is not an independent force.

Heaven is a state of being, hell is the lack of those heavenly attributes. Hell is not an independent force.

So God is all the Attributes, Satan is the total lack of those attributes. That is how this reality is created.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Regards Tony

So heaven and hell are simply conditions that people experience depending on circumstance, and they can change that experience as they see fit, like switching a light on and off.

 

[KWED]

Heaven and Hell are not places. They are states, or conditions of the soul’s existence, in the life after death. Their descriptions in the Qur’an are visual representations of an inner fact, i.e., their character.

Hell, in the words of the Qur’an, is ‘God’s kindled fire which rises above the hearts’ (Al-Humazah 104:6-7). In other words, this ‘fire’ originates in a person’s inner consciousness. This clearly alludes to the spiritual nature of the ‘fire’ in a person’s belated realization of wrongdoing. It is a painful realization of one’s failure as a person that arises within one’s own consciousness, not imposed by an external agency.

There is no such thing as eternal damnation in Islam. The word ‘eternity’ used in certain verses in the Qur’an relating to Hell, is explained by the Qur’an itself to mean only a period of time (An-Naba 78:23).

The Qur’an suggests an undiminished survival of the individual personality and consciousness in the life after death. In the Qur’anic view of the life to come, death and resurrection are continuous stages in the career of each human soul.

1. Why have heaven and hell at all?
2. So god has only existed for "a period of time" and not for eternity. So, what existed before god, and how did he start to exist?

 

[Link]

Apparently you will be excited if fellow beings fail and get eternal suffering and boring if all beings get to achieve their true inner potential through their efforts...
Fortunately God has different notions on what is interesting... rather what constitutes a good state of affairs.

The point is it makes this life almost meaningless, it's just one of many, and results will be the same. I don't believe God would do that.

I believe setting up the scenario that this is the life we got and forever results, makes, like infinitely meaningful.

I believe a wise God would set up that way to see who is best in works.

 

[Link]

Also, the question does retributive justice and vengeance have a proper place in virtue? I believe it does, and God excels at it more then anyone else. It's not a petty thing, but a righteous feature of God.

 

[Link]

Also I wanted to say God is such that he is EVERYTHING.

SAMAD in Quran:

Some people translate it as Eternal, Absolute, but from my research this is what it means.

It means God is FILLED/FULL. That means he lacks nothing. Everything is found in him.

Now this has implications. We know goodness stems from him, but what about evil. Evil such as maliciousness also takes form in him when he requites evil. We know love has a proper place, but so does hate.

The fact everything is found in God including what we think is evil, but he applies it in a righteous way, is scary.

The first verse in Surah Ikhlass says he is ONE meaning pure simple essence with no divisions.

But you can think this is an essence that doesn't have everything, and so quickly God reminds "God is FILLED/FULL (Samad)"

In this context, it means all life is found in him, but also nothing exists but get's it's reality and form from him. He is all things but nothing in particular.

Evil is given to us only to use against evil. Likewise, God doesn't want to be "evil" to anyone, but it's righteous to retribute evil with evil.

There is also pardon and forgiveness, that has a proper place as well. Everything has a proper place is what I'm saying.

None of our traits including hate has no place. Everything has a place in God, and so God is the absolute good, but also with respect to vengeance appears as monstrous justice that if applied to good people would be evil, but he applies it to evil people and hence it's not evil but the proper place of "evil" as in vengeance and retribution.

It takes on a righteous form when applied to those who die evil.

 

[sayak83]

The point is it makes this life almost meaningless, it's just one of many, and results will be the same. I don't believe God would do that.

I believe setting up the scenario that this is the life we got and forever results, makes, like infinitely meaningful.

I believe a wise God would set up that way to see who is best in works.

The meaning of the lives is the gradual discovery of divinity within which is the most meaningful goal that can ever be. And since divinity is infinite dimensional, each path to divinity and the experience and realizations thereof will be unique for each being. Hence nothing will be the same for any two journeys. The realization of divinity at the end will also be infinitely rich and infinitely meaningful because of the personal journey each has undertaken to get to that culminating stage.
Thus nothing can be more meaningful than this.

 

[Link]

The meaning of the lives is the gradual discovery of divinity within which is the most meaningful goal that can ever be. And since divinity is infinite dimensional, each path to divinity and the experience and realizations thereof will be unique for each being. Hence nothing will be the same for any two journeys. The realization of divinity at the end will also be infinitely rich and infinitely meaningful because of the personal journey each has undertaken to get to that culminating stage.
Thus nothing can be more meaningful than this.

It's a series of lives which we couldn't remember our past actions, I don't even know how accountability is even possible in this scenario. Sure realizing divinity is all good and well, but there is no justice and no accountability for evil deeds, if we are guaranteed salvation.

The fact even believers evil deeds make them at risk to lose their faith and forever go to hell if they do lose their faith, shows, there is accountability of deeds in my system.

Even the smallest evil deeds can ignite bigger sins and hence, there is accountability in this test and it's best not to risk.

In your scenario, there is no possible loss and evil deeds just slow the process and make you live more lives before getting to the goal.

This also makes good and evil deeds almost meaningless, since end goal is same with everyone.

 

[Link]

I believe in justice. Some people may say that is an ugly belief, but evil people retributed and good people rewarded to me is a belief we all were accountable for what we did and simply is belief in justice.

 

[sayak83]

I believe in justice. Some people may say that is an ugly belief, but evil people retributed and good people rewarded to me is a belief we all were accountable for what we did and simply is belief in justice.

You mistake vengeance with justice. The task of justice is to reform the evildoer and heal the effects of past wrongs. It's goal is not and never punishment or reward.
Vengeance on the other hand is about intentionally causing pain and hurt as deserts for wrong actions. It's simply using force as a deterence at best, and pointless cruelty at worst.
It's unfortunate that you have confused the two.

 

[Link]

You mistake vengeance with justice. The task of justice is to reform the evildoer and heal the effects of past wrongs. It's goal is not and never punishment or reward.
Vengeance on the other hand is about intentionally causing pain and hurt as deserts for wrong actions. It's simply using force as a deterence at best, and pointless cruelty at worst.
It's unfortunate that you have confused the two.

It is cruel type of justice, but the proper retribution to evil is an evil like it. Not to guarantee bliss.

 

[sayak83]

It's a series of lives which we couldn't remember our past actions, I don't even know how accountability is even possible in this scenario. Sure realizing divinity is all good and well, but there is no justice and no accountability for evil deeds, if we are guaranteed salvation.

The fact even believers evil deeds make them at risk to lose their faith and forever go to hell if they do lose their faith, shows, there is accountability of deeds in my system.

Even the smallest evil deeds can ignite bigger sins and hence, there is accountability in this test and it's best not to risk.

In your scenario, there is no possible loss and evil deeds just slow the process and make you live more lives before getting to the goal.

This also makes good and evil deeds almost meaningless, since end goal is same with everyone.

The accountability come from the fact that the misguided actions create reactions that create suffering for the evil doer in this life or later ones.
Spending extra time in a state of suffering is a real and tangible loss. The suffering experiences are real.
Good deeds are defined as those that aid the spiritual path and evil deeds are those that hinder it. See? Clear and meaningful.

No being is created by God who cannot or will not eventually realize his inner divinity. Because that means God has deliberately created a broken entity that is doomed from the moment it exists to eternal suffering. That is against both his goodness and perfection.

 

[sayak83]

It is cruel type of justice, but the proper retribution to evil is an evil like it. Not to guarantee bliss.

Since nobody remains evil at the end. The question of an evil being getting rewarded or something does not arise.

 

[Link]

Since nobody remains evil at the end. The question of an evil being getting rewarded or something does not arise.

So Sadam becomes a saint at the end...

 

[Link]

The accountability come from the fact that the misguided actions create reactions that create suffering for the evil doer in this life or later ones.
Spending extra time in a state of suffering is a real and tangible loss. The suffering experiences are real.
Good deeds are defined as those that aid the spiritual path and evil deeds are those that hinder it. See? Clear and meaningful.

No being is created by God who cannot or will not eventually realize his inner divinity. Because that means God has deliberately created a broken entity that is doomed from the moment it exists to eternal suffering. That is against both his goodness and perfection.

The point is good and evil deeds have trivial consequences and end result is the same.

 

[sayak83]

So Sadam becomes a saint at the end...

Yes. As well as those who had been Hitler or Stalin.
We had been such people once too. All had been.

 

[Link]

Yes. As well as those who had been Hitler or Stalin.
We had been such people once too. All had been.

I can't worship a God who does that. To each their own religion I guess.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No being is created by God who cannot or will not eventually realize his inner divinity. Because that means God has deliberately created a broken entity that is doomed from the moment it exists to eternal suffering. That is against both his goodness and perfection.

..eventually is one of those words that leave us wondering when..
..when exactly, will a psychopath be "cured" ?

Psychopathy has often been considered untreatable.
...
People afflicted with psychopathy are generally unmotivated to seek treatment for their condition, and can be uncooperative in therapy.
-wiki-

G-d knows best why He has created human beings who are capable of choosing the wrong path in life. Some people show remorse, whilst others do not.
That is just the way it is. It is possible that we can destroy ourselves through spite and envy. It is real.
On the other hand, it is possible to exceed in righteousness and be highly respected. G-d loves a trier.

 

[EtuMalku]

"Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?"
It's rational only when its intention is to deceive adherents into a punishment/reward system.

 

[Link]

"Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?"
It's rational only when its intention is to deceive adherents into a punishment/reward system.

Oh no it's so bad to not want to be evil and not want to turn away from God's guidance if it's indeed the guidance! We should all be free to be evil and debauched humans! How evil for controlling us by reminding us we will be held accountable for our choices!

 

[EtuMalku]

Oh no it's so bad to not want to be evil and not want to turn away from God's guidance if it's indeed the guidance! We should all be free to be evil and debauched humans! How evil for controlling us by reminding us we will be held accountable for our choices!

Good and Evil are subjective. One man's Good is another Man's Evil. We 'are' all free to be Evil, fortunately, most of us choose not to be. There is no cosmic authority passing judgment on our actions, we do that ourselves as Plato revealed.