Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?

[muhammad_isa]

I agree wholeheartedly with this much. It is a shame that Abrahamic religion seems to have no understanding of physical affliction and in cases such as the religion of the OP sees the correct mode of treatment for physical defects to be eternal burning and torment..

Psychopathy is not a physical ailment..
It is willful bad behaviour.
We can all behave badly at times, but some people just choose to be vile.
We can all blame our bad behaviour onto our childhood or what have you. Nobody's childhood is perfect.

The correct treatment for serial rapists and killers is death or incarceration.
"in my opinion"

..whether a person thinks that a person deserves a punishment or not makes no difference at all. If a person suffers due to their own doing, then that is how it is. We have been warned.
If we decide to take absolutely no notice, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves.

It is easy to say "G-d could make things differently", but those same people claim that G-d doesn't exist, so it's all just pointless rhetoric.

 

[danieldemol]

Psychopathy is not a physical ailment..
It is willful bad behaviour.

Blind religious assertion;
"Behavioral genetic studies have identified potential genetic and non-genetic contributors to psychopathy, including influences on brain function.'
Source: Psychopathy - Wikipedia

It is easy to say "G-d could make things differently", but those same people claim that G-d doesn't exist, so it's all just pointless rhetoric.

It is not pointless, if God is responsible for the material realm then God is responsible for our genetic factors and environments.

You are just too afraid to logically confront the implications of God's alleged doings because you have an irrational fear of hell-fire as a product of indoctrination.

Fear is well known to cloud logical judgement.

In my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Blind religious assertion;
"Behavioral genetic studies have identified potential genetic and non-genetic contributors to psychopathy, including influences on brain function.'
Source: Psychopathy - Wikipedia

So what?
I'm sure there are cases where people are not held responsible for their actions.
i.e. they are judged mentally insane
That, however, would be a minority of cases. Most psychopaths are willful and do not show remorse.

It is not pointless, if God is responsible for the material realm then God is responsible for our genetic factors and environments..

G-d is responsible for absolutely everything, and He takes full responsibility.
That does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions.
..or are you claiming insanity, yourself??

 

[danieldemol]

So what?

So Psychopathy is caused by material defects and therefore God would be scapegoating humans for God's own faults by burning them eternally over a few material defects God allegedly created.

I'm sure there are cases where people are not held responsible for their actions.
i.e. they are judged mentally insane
That, however, would be a minority of cases. Most psychopaths are willful and do not show remorse.

Due to the limitations of present technology to treat them they do not show remorse, and therefore must be safely isolated from society for the protection of society, however God does not have such limitations as being restricted to the present technology to reform them. In fact Muslims often interpret the Quran to claim that God will be able to physically renew us after death, therefore God could easily remove the genetic and environmental defects responsible for psychopathy after death.

G-d is responsible for absolutely everything, and He takes full responsibility.

Not if God is burning people for God's faults.

That does not mean that we are not responsible for our actions.
..or are you claiming insanity, yourself??

I have schizophrenia which medication has reformed me from. My present actions are acceptable, but my prior actions weren't.
Your God which you claim created me seems to have no understanding of me or other humans, which makes its claim as creator dubious.

In my opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..God could easily remove the genetic and environmental defects responsible for psychopathy after death..

Yes, of course. G-d could have created us all as angels, and not capable of disobedience.
..but He didn't. We have to assume responsibility for our actions.

Not if God is burning people for God's faults..

..but G-d would not do that. He is the Fairest of all Judges.
G-d is not a person as such, so how exactly G-d judges is more subtle than a human judge.

I have schizophrenia which medication has reformed me from..

That is not the same as a psychopath. A person with schizophrenia is mentally ill and is involuntary.

 

[lukethethird]

Is the idea of hell forever a rational idea?
Dude, it's not rational.

 

[sayak83]

I can't worship a God who does that. To each their own religion I guess.

Your or mine personal taste has no bearing on what is more or less rational/ethical/right. So the question here is.... now that two different concepts of God, heaven/hell has been described ( yours and mine), how would we decide which is more rational?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So the question here is.... now that two different concepts of God, heaven/hell has been described ( yours and mine), how would we decide which is more rational?

I seems to me, that the same argument is being used to deflect the existence of G-d.

eg. the universe can have no beginning, and have an infinite number of causes

Isn't that what you are in effect saying?
..that a soul is born as a new creation into the universe again and again, ad infinitum?

Now, I might actually agree with that kind of eternity, if this physical universe was taken out of the equation. I personally think it is more rational to assume that this universe is finite.
I see that planet earth is finite, and that all material things expire.

 

[Link]

Your or mine personal taste has no bearing on what is more or less rational/ethical/right. So the question here is.... now that two different concepts of God, heaven/hell has been described ( yours and mine), how would we decide which is more rational?

I think justice and accountability is more rational to the extent that there is forever consequences to our actions. You can believe what you want as well.

Both cases have been presented.

 

[sayak83]

I seems to me, that the same argument is being used to deflect the existence of G-d.

eg. the universe can have no beginning, and have an infinite number of causes

Isn't that what you are in effect saying?
..that a soul is born as a new creation into the universe again and again, ad infinitum?

Now, I might actually agree with that kind of eternity, if this physical universe was taken out of the equation. I personally think it is more rational to assume that this universe is finite.
I see that planet earth is finite, and that all material things expire.

It's not an infinite sequence. Many, but not infinite. The journey had a beginning and will have an end for a given soul.
Brahman is eternal, and an infinity of material realms will emerge from and dissolve into It. An infinity of souls will also emanate out of and dissolve back into it. But each soul will spend a long but finite time of individuated existence.

 

[sayak83]

I think justice and accountability is more rational to the extent that there is forever consequences to our actions. You can believe what you want as well.

Both cases have been presented.

Actions are limited in space time. Consequences are hence also limited in space time. It's irratiinal to believe that finite time bound actions have forever consequences.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

You seem to have a few issues confused.

Yes, for justice to be justice, it needs to be proportional... but when we're talking about infinite punishments and rewards, this goes beyond justice.

As finite beings with finite impacts, human beings could never deserve infinite reward or punishment on our own merit, so when we're talking about infinitites, we're talking about something else.

Giving someone a reward they didn't deserve is called generosity. Giving someone a punishment they didn't deserve is called cruelty. Treating people differently not because of their merits is called capriciousness.

A god who doles out infinite rewards is generous.

A god who doles out infinite punishments is cruel.

A god who doles out both is capricious.

Any of these possibilities reflect on the character of the god in question.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Actions are limited in space time. Consequences are hence also limited in space time. It's irratiinal to believe that finite time bound actions have forever consequences.

No it isn't.
Many people have lives of misery.
What about those people who have had to put up with the constant strife of war for many years, such as those in Afghanistan?
They now have to deal with a collapsed economy, and no doubt, there will be more trouble on its way.
I feel sure that people who experience a miserable life are often not responsible for it.
A Just G-d will not leave the righteous unrewarded for their sacrifices in this life.

There needs to be a separation of righteous and wicked souls.
It would not be paradise, if they had to live side-by-side.

If you suggest that G-d can reform them by subsequent lives or otherwise, it implies some kind of manipulation of their free-will.
That doesn't appear to be reality.
If G-d intended to interfere with our free-will, He could have done that from the start.

You assume that all souls can achieve righteousness. I would agree that they all have the capacity, and yet many choose otherwise.
I don't care how many subsequent lives people may have, a soul is still able to make a bad choice. It doesn't go away.

 

[sayak83]

No it isn't.
Many people have lives of misery.
What about those people who have had to put up with the constant strife of war for many years, such as those in Afghanistan?
They now have to deal with a collapsed economy, and no doubt, there will be more trouble on its way.
I feel sure that people who experience a miserable life are often not responsible for it.
A Just G-d will not leave the righteous unrewarded for their sacrifices in this life.

There needs to be a separation of righteous and wicked souls.
It would not be paradise, if they had to live side-by-side.

If you suggest that G-d can reform them by subsequent lives or otherwise, it implies some kind of manipulation of their free-will.
That doesn't appear to be reality.
If G-d intended to interfere with our free-will, He could have done that from the start.

You assume that all souls can achieve righteousness. I would agree that they all have the capacity, and yet many choose otherwise.
I don't care how many subsequent lives people may have, a soul is still able to make a bad choice. It doesn't go away.

A soul that had experienced God will no longer make a bad choice after that. Once seen, God cannot be unseen. It's akin to igniting a match stick. It may take several tries. But ignition and subsequent lighting up is an irreversible phenomena

 

[Link]

Actions are limited in space time. Consequences are hence also limited in space time. It's irratiinal to believe that finite time bound actions have forever consequences.

The nature of morality to me takes on forever nature because God's eternal light is mixed with that of time. Therefore reward or punishment will not only take forever form, they will take different paces of infinity depending on goodness or evil of our state when we died and pace we were in either submission and ascension or rebellion and running away.

That is God's words "for each of you is doubling but you didn't know". That is to say punishment is multiplied forever and ever non-stop but different pace depending on the gate of hell and pace of rebellion to God.

 

[Link]

You seem to have a few issues confused.

Yes, for justice to be justice, it needs to be proportional... but when we're talking about infinite punishments and rewards, this goes beyond justice.

As finite beings with finite impacts, human beings could never deserve infinite reward or punishment on our own merit, so when we're talking about infinitites, we're talking about something else.

Giving someone a reward they didn't deserve is called generosity. Giving someone a punishment they didn't deserve is called cruelty. Treating people differently not because of their merits is called capriciousness.

A god who doles out infinite rewards is generous.

A god who doles out infinite punishments is cruel.

A god who doles out both is capricious.

Any of these possibilities reflect on the character of the god in question.

From what I understand just as it's righteous to be infinite in grace and mercy for his friends, it's righteous to be most severest as possible with evil and punishment. He set it up that the pace of evil we are in if we die evil will be the multiplier pace of punishment.

This also because our deeds take on forever form because they are linked to the eternal light.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A soul that had experienced God will no longer make a bad choice after that. Once seen, God cannot be unseen..

I don't believe that.
It is possible that we can become wicked, whatever faith we might claim to be following.
The problem lies in our intentions. If we do something bad and later regret it, that is one thing.
If we intentionally do something bad and do not regret it, then that is another.

Everything we do has an effect upon our souls. If one digs a hole big enough, it is possible we might not get out

 

[freelight]

~*~*~

I'll first answer the question from one perspective, as NO....if your referring to a state of 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT) as also believed by some christian believers in their concept of eternal hellfire, which may or may not be similar to an Islamic view of 'hell' (still unlearned on all aspects of Islam theology). - the idea of 'ECT' as an eternal ongoing punishment forever and ever is irrational and absolutely INSANE! - this is why many reject the 'god' of this kind of 'theology', since no one in their right mind would pay homage to such a fiend. - thats my view which is open to modification if better insight, innerstanding or revelation is forthcoming.....I always keep changing my mind OPEN of course, as I would not be a seeking of truth if I did not

I've written a small note on the idea of eternal punishment for temporal sins as unjust in another thread here ; - we have to define our terms however and context, for conclusions can vary per our 'criteria' used, plus the ethical and philosophical issues involved.

I'll address each section of your OP below to consider -

(1) Temporary acts don't merit forever recompense.

When it comes to paradise, no one has a problem with it because it's an act of forever gratitude from God. It seems the problem with hell, is because it's a forever wrath and vengeance from him.

The issue seems to be then not about temporary vs forever, but an issue if forever wrath is the proper response. If forever gratitude and reward for goodness is the proper response, seems rational, forever vengeance and punishment is proper response for evil.

Again we need to define what 'hell forever' means as it may differ per religious tradition and theology.....but the universal law of karma resolves all this, plus there is ALWAYS the time factor and 'space' that 'God' allows souls to REPENT and reform their ways (change consciousness, choose life, alter course, change directions, etc.). If you consider Gods LOVE is INFINITE....then there is much more allowance and mercy given in every situation than a finite mind could ever fathom,...we can only guess or assume the extent of Gods love, much less deem him a merciless monster who revels in souls eternally suffering in a state (hellfire or otherwise) that there is no ESCAPE for all eternity! - thats just insane. - now if we are speaking of an 'eternal death' or 'termination' of a person as being fully 'destroyed', 'dis-integrated as in the concept of 'soul-death' (annhiliation), thats another sub-set discusison.

(2) God loves us more then we love our children.

The Quran shows that family were cut off by companions of Mohammad (s) and even fought some of their own family, when it came to truth. That is not that they didn't have affection and care for their parents, or siblings, but they detached themselves at the moment of battle between them and when their opponents showed hostility and fought the Prophet (s).

Of course, they direly wanted them to be guided, but at the end, it's not in their control.

The issue is God does want to save us before we die, and tries to intervene through intercession of his chosen from humans and Angels, and try to guide us, but at the end there is consequences for having died evil.

Gods love being infinite will be much greater than any mortal love, yes.....but who are we to give qualifications, terms or conditions on that LOVE?

I maintain that every soul created by 'God' is granted every provision (in space/time/eternity) to choose life or death, and by free will choice has such powers within divine providence. All judgments or adjustments by souls and by God's government affecting personal eschatology will be wholly just as well as MERCIFUL. - you could say the devil is in the details here, and we could spend pages on those. Love still is the Savior, its how we respond and embrace that love and let it guide, inspire and empower us....that matters

(3) Why can't we just change on judgment day?

This is a question. Why can't we change after? The reality is, good will and motivation is not possible in this scenario. It becomes purely a selfish act and the prayer is purely selfish with no love of God in it if you ask for God to forgive you at this point.

God set it up that death is like a pressure that motivates good deeds. That is we wish to help ourselves and others in terms of peace and guidance and relationship to God and his chosen lights on the mystic journey.

The choice is that there is forever consequences in preferring that which is lower (darkness) over that which is higher (light) and to journey downwards and running away from God's light, there is consequences.

Of course, if there was no consequences and we had forever time, it makes this trial of life with all it's complexities and simplicities meaningless.

For life to be a lesson with no consequence or reward, would make the nature of good and evil a joke play by God, it bears no reality.

On the other hand, that we have to face consequences of our actions and the faith gains light from good actions and good actions repel and purify evil actions to bring one closer to faith if have no faith, is the trial.

This also shows for similar reasons, hell is forever, as nothing can calm down God when you can't do anything of merit anymore at this point.

The law of karma is inherent to life itself, the very nature of energy and its cause/effect relationships stands on its own, whether you believe in a personal 'God', 'gods' or NOT - goodness is its own reward, evil, its own punishment...and so on, by degree and measure.

You cannot prove that a soul is just given ONE lifetime to learn, change or evolve, which is kind of illogical in the context of eternity. That 'God' gives you only one lifetime to be 'saved' or damned' for all eternity is grossly inept IMO. - therefore with principle of karmic law given over multiple possible life situations...lessons for learning and evolution ensue. - Life still has meaning and all actions certainly factor their effects into the tapestry. I take a more theosophical world-view here.........multiple life experiences (embodiments) are provided for in the soul's evolution.....such is sound and logical.

(5) Justice is a reality

Everything no matter how little or big is assessed. None escapes God's judgment, guilt is a warning sign of a justice taking full form one day with respect to evil deeds.

Justice administered by God or 'Nature' is indeed a universal reality (arbiter), as the very law of karma woven into life itself (cause/effect/response) acts by itself to render compensation in every situation, while infinite love and wisdom govern and mediate all things that unfold in the greater context of LIFE (this governs all conditions and destinies).

I just dont think we can circumscribe what is infinite and vastly greater than our comprehension, as you cant put 'God' in a 'box' ever. I have no fear that 'God' will do what is against his nature or will, so wholly TRUST 'God' with all things as the Absolute REALITY that IS. - in this as I choose love and life, his eternal will...I am already 'saved' by that trust and unwavering faith in him, and will come to know all the blessings that his nature and providence bestows.


~*~*~

 

[Valjean]

Good points.
Why couldn't an omnipotent God just turn these damned miscreants good, with a wave of His hand or some neural reprogramming spell? Seems like it would be child's play for the Lord of Creation -- and think of the energy saved in no longer keeping Hell stoked.

Personally, I have misgivings about the very concept of punishment. Reform or reprogramming can understand. Restitution I can understand. These are utilitarian, but what is the purpose of punishment? What is it intended to accomplish; what's its utility? It seems to me its primary purpose is to assuage the ire of the offended.
Is YHWH a god of vengeance?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Good points.
Why couldn't an omnipotent God just turn these damned miscreants good, with a wave of His hand or some neural reprogramming spell? Seems like it would be child's play for the Lord of Creation -- and think of the energy saved in no longer keeping Hell stoked.

Personally, I have misgivings about the very concept of punishment. Reform or reprogramming can understand. Restitution I can understand. These are utilitarian, but what is the purpose of punishment? What is it intended to accomplish; what's its utility? It seems to me its primary purpose is to assuage the ire of the offended.
Is YHWH a god of vengeance?

The idea of punishment is to create a world that is just. Punishment is also meant as a deterrence.