Is the Intelligent Designer Christian or Muslim?

[dust1n]

So all these prophecies were allegedly fulfilled during or shortly after Mohammed's lifetime. In contrast, prophecies in the Bible had fulfillment hundreds of years after their being spoken. IMO, only Jehovah can say truthfully; " Remember the former things of long ago, That I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is no one like me. From the beginning I foretell the outcome, And from long ago the things that have not yet been done. I say, ‘My decision will stand, And I will do whatever I please.’" (Isaiah 46:9,10)

Countless other prophecies are claimed to have been fulfilled. Some of the predictions may seem vague and easily fulfilled by a wide variety of events, causing debate and analysis, but, regardless, many Muslims believe that the Qur'an prophesies at least some future events, though perhaps not all those listed in this article. Nevertheless, the following include some of the other potentially fulfilled claims made by the Qur'an.

The development of using fingerprints for identification of criminals: "At length, when they reach The (Fire), their hearing, Their sight, and their skins Will bear witness against them, As to (all) their deeds." (41:20) [8][12]

The problem of environmental pollution as caused by human inventions: "Mischief has appeared On land and sea because Of (the meed) that the hands Of men have earned, That (God) may give them A taste of some of their Deeds: in order that they May turn back (from Evil)" (30:41); "Then watch thou For the Day That the sky will Bring forth a kind Of smoke (or mist) plainly visible, Enveloping the people: This will be a Penalty Grievous" (44:10-11).[8][12][17]

New modes of transportation created by humans: "And (He has created) horses, Mules, and donkeys, for you To ride and use for show; And He has created (other) things Of which ye have no knowledge" (16:8).[8][12]

The gradually-acquired equality for women and women's rights: "When the female (infant), Buried alive, is questioned - For what crime she was killed" (81:8-9).[8][12]

Quran and miracles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dust1n]

So, I still haven't learned if the ID is Allah or Jehovah, and I'm wondering by what scientific means ID proponents have reached their conclusions.

It's been claimed a couple times that Allah and Jehovah or the same. But, it's actually quite important whether the ID is Christian or Muslim:

• God’s only begotten Son is Jesus. Allah has no begotten son.
• God made salvation available by sacrificing His Son and promises salvation by grace to those who believe. Allah sacrificed nothing, and only saves if sufficient works are done.
• God has a payment for sins—Jesus Christ. Allah has no payment for sins.
• God’s Christ paid for the sins of mankind. Allah paid for nothing, and all men pay for their own sins.
• God’s salvation is through Christ’s work. Allah’s salvation is through people’s works.
• God’s saving work is, “Come to Christ.” The major part of Moslem salvation is to believe Mohammed was the sum and seal of the prophets.
• God’s book is very different from Allah’s book. They contradict each other, so they cannot both be true. For example, the Bible says Christ was resurrected from the dead. The Moslems reject that as a lie.
• God says his Son is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Allah says Christ is “only a messenger” (Chap. 5, “The Food” sect. 10, par. 75).
• God treats men and women equally. Allah does not.
• God says marriages today (Christian) are to be monogamous. Allah allows more than one wife.
• There is no marriage in God’s Paradise. Faithful men get many virgins in Allah’s.
• God says it is not necessary to have special days. Allah does: for example, Ramadan, the Moslem holy month during which Moslems fast during the day.

http://www.truthortradition.com/art...ween-allah-and-the-god-of-the-christian-bible

 

[outhouse]

But, it's actually quite important whether the ID is Christian or Muslim:

It is almost as if ONLY man defined these concepts, as there is no general agreement on mans definition of these concepts.

It sure does look like literary creations in mythology to me, and you have supplied great evidence for no divine connection what so ever.

 

[dust1n]

It is almost as if ONLY man defined these concepts, as there is no general agreement on mans definition of these concepts.

Yeah, but creationists aren't just myth-tellers, they're scientists. They have found that the empirical evidence undoubtedly slow the existence of a creator. So, I'm wondering if that same empirical evidence informs us if the ID is Jehovah or Allah. Some reason though, the creationist scientists never come to my threads.

It sure does look like literary creations in mythology to me, and you have supplied great evidence for no divine connection what so ever.

Thanks. Always fun to find new ways to address it.

 

[God lover]

Science is the study of everything physical.

If God exists, I believe God is outside of the physical creation. His power can enter/move in this physical universe. Our physical senses cannot reach out of the physical Universe to see God's realms.

How would we know who exactly God is? We can deduce ideas from what we see in God's creation: flowers, trees, birds / eyes , ears, noses / black widows, nemonia, earthquakes... In another way, we might be able to sense who God is in direct relationship to God. This would especially be the case if we have a spiritual (God realm) characteristic such as a spirit. If we have a spirit that our conscience self is aware of (though our physical world cannot sense), then God may enlighten us if we choose to spend time in prayer.

 

[outhouse]

Science is the study of everything physical.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[God lover]

Welcome to the forum.

Nice to be here

 

[dust1n]

Science is the study of everything physical.

If God exists, I believe God is outside of the physical creation. His power can enter/move in this physical universe. Our physical senses cannot reach out of the physical Universe to see God's realms.

How would we know who exactly God is? We can deduce ideas from what we see in God's creation: flowers, trees, birds / eyes , ears, noses / black widows, nemonia, earthquakes... In another way, we might be able to sense who God is in direct relationship to God. This would especially be the case if we have a spiritual (God realm) characteristic such as a spirit. If we have a spirit that our conscience self is aware of (though our physical world cannot sense), then God may enlighten us if we choose to spend time in prayer.

So, what, Jehovah or Allah? Can we deduce from flowers, trees, bird/eyes, ears, noses, black widows, pneumonia, earthquakes the answer to this question or not?

We obviously can't rely on the "spirit realm" since there are both people who exist on the spiritual realm, many who talk to Jehovah, and many who talk to Allah, and both cannot exist, so it can be say to conclude that majority of the people in the world are talking to no one when they are talking to a deity. Otherwise, multiple deities would have to exist.

 

[God lover]

So, what, Jehovah or Allah? Can we deduce from flowers, trees, bird/eyes, ears, noses, black widows, pneumonia, earthquakes the answer to this question or not?

We obviously can't rely on the "spirit realm" since there are both people who exist on the spiritual realm, many who talk to Jehovah, and many who talk to Allah, and both cannot exist, so it can be say to conclude that majority of the people in the world are talking to no one when they are talking to a deity. Otherwise, multiple deities would have to exist.

Your point is very logical.

It would seem that different people have different ideas about who God is specifically. If there are contradictory ideas, then it stands to reason that some, if not all, are wrong.

My view is that every religion is filled with people who are wrong about God on many levels. I think everyone on earth also knows some real things about God by being human and walking this earth. I feel that God has made him/her/itself known by the creation we live in. To s certain point this can inform us of a lot.

Another way I feel God had made himself known is by the moral journey we find ourselves in. We have an awareness of morality. We can use this moral compas to further postulate about God. (Especially if we believe in a loving God.) This may serve us well when we consider the spectrum of religious views out there. Even if we believe in a harsh God, this can help us in our search for truth. It is therefore crucial that we get this first answer correct. Is God loving, spiteful, silly or .... well, this is a place to choose paths carefully.

If God is real. If God creates the universe and has full knowledge of it. And IF God desires to know us personally, then it stands to reason that we can know him in a meaningful and real way.

I know I made some big "if" statements. I jumped to a place of faith that I adhere to. Not everyone will accept those if statements. Give me a little grace here.

IF God wants to know us and can manifest in this Universe, then we can value our own human experiences of him in prayer. It is my personal viewpoint that this is available to all who want it. This manifestation of God can take place in the spirit or even in real and miraculous ways within the physical Universe. If we witness miracles then I would say it is proof to the witnesses that see it and second hand evidence to those who hear it.

We must weigh the sum of our life experiences to date against the history of religious views if we feel compelled to choose one specifically. Or we can enjoy today's experience of Godin our life with hope that we will get to know God better in time.

To get back to your point about choosing the "correct" religion. We must use what we know of God personally as a litmus test about what others claim about God.

Is he Zeus? Is he the God of Mohamed? What kind of man was Mohamed? What did Mohammed say about Allah? Is God the God of Judaism? What did they say about God? Is God the God that Christ exhibited? Is that not in fact the very same God of Judaism? Are not the Muslims claiming the same root of God in their claims? (The last question is one I need to investigate further). Does God seem more like the divine entity in Budism? Hindu...?

To the point. Get to know God yourself. Weigh what you find against history.

History of religion takes twists and turns and I believe weaves closer at times and further away at times but no single mortal person has hit the bullseye yet. (Unless you believe in Christ, or Buddha)

 

[dust1n]

Your point is very logical.

It would seem that different people have different ideas about who God is specifically. If there are contradictory ideas, then it stands to reason that some, if not all, are wrong.

A new reasonable person who doesn't do ALL CAPS a lot. Great news! Welcome to RF.

My view is that every religion is filled with people who are wrong about God on many levels. I think everyone on earth also knows some real things about God by being human and walking this earth. I feel that God has made him/her/itself known by the creation we live in. To s certain point this can inform us of a lot.

But what are some examples.

Another way I feel God had made himself known is by the moral journey we find ourselves in. We have an awareness of morality. We can use this moral compas to further postulate about God. (Especially if we believe in a loving God.) This may serve us well when we consider the spectrum of religious views out there. Even if we believe in a harsh God, this can help us in our search for truth. It is therefore crucial that we get this first answer correct. Is God loving, spiteful, silly or .... well, this is a place to choose paths carefully.

This is actually a pretty interesting answer. I don't now if I buy into wholly, but I have encountered it as far as I can remember, and will think about it more.

[/quote]If God is real. If God creates the universe and has full knowledge of it. And IF God desires to know us personally, then it stands to reason that we can know him in a meaningful and real way.

I know I made some big "if" statements. I jumped to a place of faith that I adhere to. Not everyone will accept those if statements. Give me a little grace here.[/quote]

A little grace granted.

IF God wants to know us and can manifest in this Universe, then we can value our own human experiences of him in prayer. It is my personal viewpoint that this is available to all who want it. This manifestation of God can take place in the spirit or even in real and miraculous ways within the physical Universe. If we witness miracles then I would say it is proof to the witnesses that see it and second hand evidence to those who hear it.

Not to go extreme or anything, but couldn't such an argument be used to validate ISIS members military victories? I mean, if they witness the miracle, then it's proof that they witnesses saw it and second hand evidence to those who hear it.

We must weigh the sum of our life experiences to date against the history of religious views if we feel compelled to choose one specifically. Or we can enjoy today's experience of Godin our life with hope that we will get to know God better in time.

To get back to your point about choosing the "correct" religion. We must use what we know of God personally as a litmus test about what others claim about God.

Is he Zeus? Is he the God of Mohamed? What kind of man was Mohamed? What did Mohammed say about Allah? Is God the God of Judaism? What did they say about God? Is God the God that Christ exhibited? Is that not in fact the very same God of Judaism? Are not the Muslims claiming the same root of God in their claims? (The last question is one I need to investigate further). Does God seem more like the divine entity in Budism? Hindu...?

To the point. Get to know God yourself. Weigh what you find against history.

Seems like reasonable advice and great questions.

History of religion takes twists and turns and I believe weaves closer at times and further away at times but no single mortal person has hit the bullseye yet. (Unless you believe in Christ, or Buddha)

That we definitely agree on.

 

[God lover]

A new reasonable person who doesn't do ALL CAPS a lot. Great news! Welcome to RF.

Thanks. It's a great forum. I have heard some good new ideas here already.

But what are some examples.

Examples of ways people are wrong about God in deferent religions. Hmm.... I'll give examples from Christianity because I am mostly versed in this group. Any person claims to be Christian but does not love their neighbors as themselves is guilty of being wrong about God. For example, people who line up outside of abortion clinics with angry shouts of condemnation and grotesque signs meant to shame and bully their victims aren't properly representing their God. Jesus hung out with roudy groups of people and shared the love of the father with them. He told them about the kingdom of heaven and they loved him back. His way was to love people to life, not to whip the struggling victim to obedience. When Jesus did use a whip, it wasn't against pregnant teenage women, it was against prosperous business men who were selling sacrifice animals in the temple to people who needed sacrifice offerings. These business men had turned a holy place of worship (and sometimes animal sacrifice) into a market place for getting rich off the poor who journeyed by faith to Jerusalem. He actually went in there one day with a whip and forced the money exchangers out, while the blind, crippled and other minorities entered for the first time in years. They may be right that God doesn't like abortion, but they are so wrong to think he wants them to judge there sisters. Jesus said,"before you remove the sliver from your neighbor, take the plank out of your own eye."

I could go on about this and might atract a debate with some fellow Christians who think I am wrong. That would however strengthen my view that I and every other Christian is wrong to a certain degree about the God of Christianity.

Likewise, any Christian who claims God is a loving God who gave his only son so that whoever believes in him shall not die bit receive eternal life.... would be correct haha but somène else might say I am full of crap!!

So IF there is a God who created the Universe, there must be truths about him/her, and there must be things that are lies about God. Any person in any group at anytime might make a bunch of claims about God and they are likely to be right and wrong at various points in there lifetime.

But if you meant examples of things we can know about God by His/Her creation:
- God is a genius (life cycle of a flower)
- God is creative (so many varieties of plants and animals)
- God is patient (16 billion yr old universe / people are arguing about him and he keeps Himself hidden from TV cameras)

You make me realize that I probably have stronger believes about God from the movement of my heart in moments of life that move me. The spirit can be flooded with love when one recognizes what has been given for them. Or one is filled with Joy when one finds friendship amungst others. The peace that can settle a spirit in anguish by the healing prayer of a brother.


This is actually a pretty interesting answer. I don't now if I buy into wholly, but I have encountered it as far as I can remember, and will think about it more.

If God is real. If God creates the universe and has full knowledge of it. And IF God desires to know us personally, then it stands to reason that we can know him in a meaningful and real way.

I know I made some big "if" statements. I jumped to a place of faith that I adhere to. Not everyone will accept those if statements. Give me a little grace here.[/quote]

A little grace granted.

Thanks. Refreshing

Not to go extreme or anything, but couldn't such an argument be used to validate ISIS members military victories? I mean, if they witness the miracle, then it's proof that they witnesses saw it and second hand evidence to those who hear it.

I'm not sure what miracles ISIS members are seeing. Often people claim miracles about their own human acomplishments.



Seems like reasonable advice and great questions.

Lots to think about... I am getting tired, I need to rest.

That we definitely agree on.[/QUOTE]

 

[God lover]

If God is real. If God creates the universe and has full knowledge of it. And IF God desires to know us personally, then it stands to reason that we can know him in a meaningful and real way.

I know I made some big "if" statements. I jumped to a place of faith that I adhere to. Not everyone will accept those if statements. Give me a little grace here.

A little grace granted.

Thanks. Refreshing

Not to go extreme or anything, but couldn't such an argument be used to validate ISIS members military victories? I mean, if they witness the miracle, then it's proof that they witnesses saw it and second hand evidence to those who hear it.

I'm not sure what miracles ISIS members are seeing. Often people claim miracles about their own human acomplishments.



Seems like reasonable advice and great questions.

Lots to think about... I am getting tired, I need to rest.

That we definitely agree on.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I understand how to use this reply properly. Did I just edit your response?

 

[dust1n]

I'd delete and start over maybe. When ever you click on reply to my post, should have something like [ quote=dustin ]blah blah[ /quote ]

To break it up, just make sure the first section keeps the [ quote=dustin ]First part you want to quote[ /quote ] and all the other parts just [ quote ]any other section you're quote[ /quote ].

Except no spaces in [/qute]

Takes a little practice.

 

[psychoslice]

It depends on what culture, religion and language you have been conditioned in.

 

[God lover]

But what are some of the examples? [/QUOTE]


I have been thinking about this since you asked for examples...

I actually realized what I believe is a little different or more broad than what I first posted. I beleive that the creation we are in and the tools we've been given (eyes,ears,taste buds, finger tips, brains, etc...) is perfect for teaching us spiritual truths about ourselves, God, and relationship. (Maybe more)

So, that said, a whole bunch of examples have been flooding into my little mind.

Here goes

We turn beautiful things like fruit into S**t. Lol . literally we do this. I could infer that God is not demanding perfection from us. He knows we are his little poop makers and he loves us anyway. We know he loves us because he/she provided so many cool stuff. Yummy fruits and veggies cashews, pears, celery (God's tooth brush). Interestingly, as people grow up and mature, most often the motabolism slows down and more mature people eat less and poop less. Haha . genius.

Okay, my ideas may or may not be true about this being God's reason for pooping people (animals) .

The lymphatic system could suggest that God wants us to move our buts!!! Woohoo. This is a good idea Dad! Our lymphatic system requires movement to do its job. The circulatory system needs a heart to pump it. But the lymphatic system needs movement to pump it. So exercise.

Got to go back to work...

 

[Smart_Guy]

But what are some of the examples?

Man, you gotta work on your quoting skills

 

[God lover]

Man, you gotta work on your quoting skills

I'm a carpenter. But I'll try

 

[viole]

I beleive that the creation we are in and the tools we've been given (eyes,ears,taste buds, finger tips, brains, etc...) is perfect for teaching us spiritual truths about ourselves, God, and relationship. (Maybe more)
....
We turn beautiful things like fruit into S**t.

Maybe the organ (not present in your list) that produces S**t is also important for teaching us spiritual truths about ourselves. Who knows?

Ciao

- viole

 

[God lover]

Maybe the organ (not present in your list) that produces S**t is also important for teaching us spiritual truths about ourselves. Who knows?

Ciao

- viole

I totally agree. The term, "you're full of **** is brilliant "!

But then there is so many other ways it can go. Thank goodness for the redemptive trees, bushes and worms.

This world has so much to teach us. Analogies and metaphors are all around. There is so much more to speak on, because some bits are ugly, scary and harmful.

But there's a silver lining. Lol

Jesus.

I swear I really beleive it. With humble love.

Examples of people with s**t all over them:
- Christians who yel hatefuly at teenage women entering an abortion clinic. Jesus came to love people to God, not shame them into obedience. Those Christians should remember that judgement is God's and NOT theirs.

Regards

PS. I just realized that you meant a**holes. You're witty I'm slow sometimes. And to be perfectly honest, I have at many times in my life been an *******. I am trying to make sure that stops happening, but I wouldn't doubt I will screw up again. Hope we are cool. I don't mind that we have different beleif and back round. It doesn't separate us at all on any level.


I'm desperately need Jesus. I am pretty much hopeless without him.


All the best!

 

[dust1n]

I'm not sure what miracles ISIS members are seeing. Often people claim miracles about their own human acomplishments.

I might be assuming here that ISIS members view their accomplishments as being divinely willed and/or assisted. Pray to God for success and thank him when you get it.

Seems like reasonable advice and great questions.

Lots to think about... I am getting tired, I need to rest.

It's alright, sometimes it takes me a week to respond. Just got to let me brain rest and mull things over sometimes, and other times I just stuck doing something for a while. Either way, I try to respond to everything eventually.

I have been thinking about this since you asked for examples...

I actually realized what I believe is a little different or more broad than what I first posted. I beleive that the creation we are in and the tools we've been given (eyes,ears,taste buds, finger tips, brains, etc...) is perfect for teaching us spiritual truths about ourselves, God, and relationship. (Maybe more)

So, that said, a whole bunch of examples have been flooding into my little mind.

Here goes

We turn beautiful things like fruit into S**t. Lol . literally we do this. I could infer that God is not demanding perfection from us. He knows we are his little poop makers and he loves us anyway. We know he loves us because he/she provided so many cool stuff. Yummy fruits and veggies cashews, pears, celery (God's tooth brush). Interestingly, as people grow up and mature, most often the motabolism slows down and more mature people eat less and poop less. Haha . genius.

Okay, my ideas may or may not be true about this being God's reason for pooping people (animals) .

The lymphatic system could suggest that God wants us to move our buts!!! Woohoo. This is a good idea Dad! Our lymphatic system requires movement to do its job. The circulatory system needs a heart to pump it. But the lymphatic system needs movement to pump it. So exercise.

Got to go back to work...

We turn fruit into poo, but plants turn poo into fruits. The plants are the heroes in this equation. They produce food (well, offspring) from basically sunlight, water and various dirt, and we get to eat them. Also used them for fuel and shelter and ships for a very long time. Of course, we can speculate about God through these means, but we can't know for sure much about it.