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Is the Intelligent Designer Christian or Muslim?

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Let's be clear about what we are talking about; so-called macro evolution, wherein it us claimed one type of plant or animal evolves into another type, such a fish to amphibian.
“What qualifies a theory as a scientific theory? According to the Encyclopedia of Scientific Principles, Laws, and Theories, a scientific theory, such as Albert Einstein’s theory of gravity, must
Be observable
Be reproducible by controlled experiments
Make accurate predictions
In that light, where does [macro] evolution stand? Its operation cannot be observed. It cannot be reproduced. And it cannot make accurate predictions. Can evolution even be considered a scientific hypothesis? The same encyclopedia defines a hypothesis as “a more tentative observation of facts [than a theory],” yet lends itself “to deductions that can be experimentally tested.” (g8/15)
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There's a missing link here though.

Intelligent Source --> DNA

So how did this intelligent source make this DNA?

Awesome power and awe-inspiring wisdom.

And what empirical evidence supports the claim that awesome power and awe-inspiring wisdom is the link between an intelligent source and DNA?

DNA.

And round and round we go.
Intelligent source--> book
How did intelligent source make the book
Average intelligence and wisdom
What empirical evidence supports the claim that average intelligence is the link between an intelligent source and book?
The book.
Show me a book and I'll prove an intelligent source. Or to rephrase; God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny God] are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Let's be clear about what we are talking about; so-called macro evolution, wherein it us claimed one type of plant or animal evolves into another type, such a fish to amphibian.
“What qualifies a theory as a scientific theory? According to the Encyclopedia of Scientific Principles, Laws, and Theories, a scientific theory, such as Albert Einstein’s theory of gravity, must
Be observable
Be reproducible by controlled experiments
Make accurate predictions
In that light, where does [macro] evolution stand? Its operation cannot be observed. It cannot be reproduced. And it cannot make accurate predictions. Can evolution even be considered a scientific hypothesis? The same encyclopedia defines a hypothesis as “a more tentative observation of facts [than a theory],” yet lends itself “to deductions that can be experimentally tested.” (g8/15)

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Phylogenetics
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Intelligent source--> book
How did intelligent source make the book
Average intelligence and wisdom
What empirical evidence supports the claim that average intelligence is the link between an intelligent source and book?
The book.
Show me a book and I'll prove an intelligent source. Or to rephrase; God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny God] are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)

You still seem to missing the point. In your illustration,

Intelligent Source --> Book

When determining how the book was manifested, I wanted to know what techniques the writer used, what the cover looks like, how the cover was made, where are the pages of, what is the ink made of and how is it placed on paper, how is the binding applied, what are the tools necessary to make a book.

That's the missing link between intelligent source and DNA.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Let's be clear about what we are talking about; so-called macro evolution, wherein it us claimed one type of plant or animal evolves into another type, such a fish to amphibian.

"The term "macroevolution" frequently arises within the context of the evolution/creation debate, usually used by creationists alleging a significant difference between the evolutionary changes observed in field and laboratory studies and the larger scale macroevolutionary changes that scientists believe to have taken thousands or millions of years to occur. They accept that evolutionary change is possible within what they call "kinds" ("microevolution"), but deny that one "kind" can evolve into another ("macroevolution").[16] While this claim is maintained on the vagueness of the undefined, unscientific term "kind", evolution of life forms beyond the species level (i.e. "macroevolution" by the scientific definition) has been observed multiple times under both controlled laboratory conditions and in nature.[17] In creation science, creationists accepted speciation as occurring within a "created kind" or "baramin", but objected to what they called "third level-macroevolution" of a new genus or higher rank in taxonomy. Generally, there is ambiguity as to where they draw a line on "species", "created kinds", etc. and what events and lineages fall within the rubric of microevolution or macroevolution.[18] The claim that macroevolution does not occur, or is impossible, is not supported by the scientific community.

Such claims are rejected by the scientific community on the basis of ample evidence that macroevolution is an active process both presently and in the past.[6][19] The terms macroevolution and microevolution relate to the same processes operating at different scales, but creationist claims misuse the terms in a vaguely defined way which does not accurately reflect scientific usage, acknowledging well observed evolution as "microevolution" and denying that "macroevolution" takes place.[6][20] Evolutionary theory (including macroevolutionary change) remains the dominant scientific paradigm for explaining the origins of Earth's biodiversity. Its occurrence is not disputed within the scientific community.[21] While details of macroevolution are continuously studied by the scientific community, the overall theory behind macroevolution (i.e. common descent) has been overwhelmingly consistent with empirical data. Predictions of empirical data from the theory of common descent have been so consistent that biologists often refer to it as the "fact of evolution".[22][23]

Describing the fundamental similarity between Macro and Microevolution in his authoritative textbook "Evolutionary Biology," biologist Douglas Futuyma writes,

“ One of the most important tenets of the theory forged during the Evolutionary Synthesis of the 1930s and 1940s was that "macroevolutionary" differences among organisms - those that distinguish higher taxa - arise from the accumulation of the same kinds of genetic differences that are found within species. Opponents of this point of view believed that "macroevolution" is qualitatively different from "microevolution" within species, and is based on a totally different kind of genetic and developmental patterning... Genetic studies of species differences have decisively disproved [this] claim. Differences between species in morphology, behavior, and the processes that underlie reproductive isolation all have the same genetic properties as variation within species: they occupy consistent chromosomal positions, they may be polygenic or based on few genes, they may display additive, dominant, or epistatic effects, and they can in some instances be traced to specifiable differences in proteins or DNA nucleotide sequences. The degree of reproductive isolation between populations, whether prezygotic or postzygotic, varies from little or none to complete. Thus, reproductive isolation, like the divergence of any other character, evolves in most cases by the gradual substitution of alleles in populations. ”

— Douglas Futuyma, "Evolutionary Biology" (1998), pp.477-8[4]

Nicholas Matzke and Paul R. Gross have accused creationists of using "strategically elastic" definitions of micro- and macroevolution when discussing the topic.[1] The actual definition of macroevolution accepted by the vast majority of[24] scientists is "any change at the species level or above" (phyla, group, etc.) and microevolution is "any change below the level of species." Matzke and Gross state that many creationist critics define macroevolution as something that cannot be attained, as these critics dismiss any observed evolutionary change as "just microevolution".[1]"

Macroevolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You still seem to missing the point. In your illustration,

Intelligent Source --> Book

When determining how the book was manifested, I wanted to know what techniques the writer used, what the cover looks like, how the cover was made, where are the pages of, what is the ink made of and how is it placed on paper, how is the binding applied, what are the tools necessary to make a book.

That's the missing link between intelligent source and DNA.
And there is where scientific research can be and has been of some value.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Show me a book and I'll prove an intelligent source. Or to rephrase; God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny God] are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)

So, the ID also wrote Romans? So Christian ID God it is?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In what regards?
In bringing to our view the wondrous workings of the cell, DNA and RNA, and the other marvels of life. I believe it was DNA that played a large role in convincing former atheist Antony Flew that only an all-wise Creator could produce such a marvel.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
In bringing to our view the wondrous workings of the cell, DNA and RNA

Okay, we've been studying genetics for some 50 years now. So what empirical evidence regarding this supports the notion that DNA is and or was created and or designed by some being? And how have we got any more knowledgeable about the process by which God created life, as in the actual mechanisms used?

and the other marvels of life. I believe it was DNA that played a large role in convincing former atheist Antony Flew that only an all-wise Creator could produce such a marvel.

Flew at the end of his life believed in a Aristolelian God. Which is very different than the Christian God. How do I know which God the evidence of DNA is pointing to?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Seeing how you stated:



Then how did you arrive at the conclusion that the ID in question is Jehovah, as opposed to Thor?
any who claim to be God must be able to support that claim by evidence, IMO. Jehovah sets forward as proof of his Godship his ability to foreknow and foretell events of salvation and deliverance, as well as judgment and destruction and then bring those events to fulfillment.(Isaiah 44:6-9) Jehovah's Word is filled with such prophecies, all of which come true. False gods cannot accurately foretell the future, since they themselves do not exist, except in the minds of their devotees.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
any who claim to be God must be able to support that claim by evidence, IMO. Jehovah sets forward as proof of his Godship his ability to foreknow and foretell events of salvation and deliverance, as well as judgment and destruction and then bring those events to fulfillment.(Isaiah 44:6-9) Jehovah's Word is filled with such prophecies, all of which come true. False gods cannot accurately foretell the future, since they themselves do not exist, except in the minds of their devotees.

So the evidence you have that the ID is God as opposed to Allah is that the same book that talks about God being the best thing ever also wrote in its own prophesier and then also wrote about how they were later fulfilled?

But this wouldn't be scientific at all. What scientific evidence do you have to points to the Christian God as opposed to any other imaginable God, including an Aristotelian God.


Flew, the philosopher you just used to make the argument that a God does exist, believes in a totally different God from you. Why don't you believe in Flew's Aristolean God?
 

averageJOE

zombie
any who claim to be God must be able to support that claim by evidence, IMO. Jehovah sets forward as proof of his Godship his ability to foreknow and foretell events of salvation and deliverance, as well as judgment and destruction and then bring those events to fulfillment.(Isaiah 44:6-9) Jehovah's Word is filled with such prophecies, all of which come true. False gods cannot accurately foretell the future, since they themselves do not exist, except in the minds of their devotees.
And muslims use the Koran that states the same thing about allah.

And are we any closer to answering the original question in the OP?
The two main groups I tend to notice that lean towards an intelligent designer are Christians and Muslims. So my question is quite simple. Is the Intelligent Designer Jehovah, or Allah? And what scientific basis do these "scientists" use when determining which is the actual Intelligent Designer?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Intelligent source--> book
How did intelligent source make the book
Average intelligence and wisdom
What empirical evidence supports the claim that average intelligence is the link between an intelligent source and book?
The book.
Show me a book and I'll prove an intelligent source. Or to rephrase; God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny God] are inexcusable." (Romans 1:20)

I agree that book are written by average intelligence and wisdom (at the time of its writing).

The Bible is a typical example.

Ciao

- viole
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Well, they must differ in some aspect, otherwise one wouldn't have sent an additional prophet than the other, who holds a different system of rules than the God given by Christians. I'm not sure what the difference is. I'm hoping some of the ID proponents could enlighten us to the issue. Certainly, if the existence of God is a matter of scientific endeavor, than being able to determine who and what that God is, and what it is that God wants, would be able to be determined and supported with empirical evidence.
All of the texts have the same internal meaning, and it's best to determine what "God" is NOT.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
And why do Dolphins get to breathe through a different whole than they eat through? I don't wanna choke either! And what's with leg bones on a whale? And WHY do I have what appears to be the start of a tail? I don't want no dang tail!!! What's with the appendix that damn near killed me when it exploded???? And tonsils, was the point to make me spend my first 3 years in the throes of the mother of all ear infections??? I NEED ANSWERS!!!

What you need is to stop complaining about being alive.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
All of the texts have the same internal meaning, and it's best to determine what "God" is NOT.

Okay, is God not the being described in the Bible, is he not the being described in the Qur'an, is he not the being described by Mormons? I'm trying to figure out here how to operation an ID classroom.


So far I got, the proof is self-evident. Look at DNA. Had to be God. Which God? The one in the book there.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Okay, is God not the being described in the Bible, is he not the being described in the Qur'an, is he not the being described by Mormons? I'm trying to figure out here how to operation an ID classroom.


So far I got, the proof is self-evident. Look at DNA. Had to be God. Which God? The one in the book there.

Not a being, but being. We are all creators. All is One. There is no physical evidence. One can only know by what they're equipped with internally. The books kill, but the Spirit gives life. Obviously, "God" is NOT how most, if not all religions deem or define "God."
 
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