is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

[Bismillah]

are you saying all muslims are infallible then

Go back and read what you are responding to. You stated that

wouldn't you say that is a consistent ideology with people in general, regardless if they are religious or not?

That is a false claim.

i think the reason why you have to explain it so much is because you haven't committed to the idea and YOU flip flop it around making it extremely difficult to understand what you mean.

******** I didn't flipflop since day one I know that some people do things "for the sake of good".

you said islam IS that mind set...meaning it is exclusive to islam...which in fact is totally delusional.

You completely miss the point first of all. Atheism is a lack of belief, there can be many mindsets on life. There is no necessary reason it be a charitable one. Islam however is a charitable mindset thus it is superior. I never said Islam is the only "mindset" get over yourself.

whaaaaaat? no it's not.

Yes it is. If a materialistic person acts materialistic then SO WHAT? That is his mindset. He isn't conflicted with his beliefs. OTOH if a Muslim is materialistic that IS against his beliefs. Get it yet?

wow...really. why then are muslims countries in such a sad state...there are almost as many muslims as there are christians in the world why then are muslim countries still developing if islam is so charitable? there are a lot of rich muslims in the world too...

Yeah really, I have already provided scripture and evidence of charity in Islam. It is a part of Islam, without getting into politics if a Muslim is not charitable then he is going against Islam.

you think that non muslims do not have this belief

I have already stated many times that I don't think that. However, an Atheist may be as likely to be materialistic then he is to be charitable. Whatever his actions he is living according to his beliefs. A Muslim must be charitable if he is not then he is going against his beliefs.

this is disgusting

It is true.

Yes it is. If a materialistic person acts materialistic then SO WHAT? That is his mindset. He isn't conflicted with his beliefs.

charity is infused in humanity

No, it's not.

 

[Bismillah]

I'm done copying my quotes in this thread, obviously the matter is out of your grasp.

I stated that the action's merit depends on intention. As I later explained in Islam, the motivation for every action revolves around Niyat. That means that a Muslim must always "pause to straighten their intention" so that our actions are "for the sake of good". That does not hold true for an atheist simply because atheism is lack of beliefs not the presence of them.

Secondly I stated "

A man can tell right from wrong, the difference lies that a Muslim must always be righteous and that his actions are innately done "for the sake of good".

An atheist's act is not necessarily inferior, however there is no reason to prompt his actions to either be for the best of intentions or indeed to even be charitable. That is why Islam is superior.

Yes it is. If a materialistic person acts materialistic then SO WHAT? That is his mindset. He isn't conflicted with his beliefs. OTOH if a Muslim is materialistic that IS against his beliefs. Get it yet?

 

[waitasec]

Go back and read what you are responding to. You stated that That is a false claim. ******** I didn't flipflop since day one I know that some people do things "for the sake of good". You completely miss the point first of all. Atheism is a lack of belief, there can be many mindsets on life. There is no necessary reason it be a charitable one. Islam however is a charitable mindset thus it is superior. I never said Islam is the only "mindset" get over yourself. Yes it is. If a materialistic person acts materialistic then SO WHAT? That is his mindset. He isn't conflicted with his beliefs. OTOH if a Muslim is materialistic that IS against his beliefs. Get it yet? Yeah really, I have already provided scripture and evidence of charity in Islam. It is a part of Islam, without getting into politics if a Muslim is not charitable then he is going against Islam. I have already stated many times that I don't think that. However, an Atheist may be as likely to be materialistic then he is to be charitable. Whatever his actions he is living according to his beliefs. A Muslim must be charitable if he is not then he is going against his beliefs. It is true. No, it's not.

according to bismillah...he is superior because he follows islam...
not impressive.

 

[gnostic]

Go back a couple pages when waitasec made that accusation.

That's not helpful, bismillah.

Either quote what you have said or giving me the specific POST NUMBER(s) to go back to.

(I'd prefer that you quote what you've written, instead of me searching for what you're referring to.)

Telling me to go back a couple of pages is rather too vague, because I have 30-post-per-page, while you may have the default setting of 10-post-per-page. I am not going to go back to look for you've said with vague numbers of pages.

 

[Bismillah]

Ok gnostic, you're right that wasn't helpful.

This is what you said

Are you truly saying that atheists or anyone else who are non-Muslims, cannot be charitable?

This is similar to waitasec's remark

according to bismillah a person isn't a person unless they follow the islamic religion...
otherwise they're just a waste of time and space...

My response would be what I first said

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

The human consciousness is such that it can recognize between that which is good and that which is evil.

In the ideal case that an atheist and a Muslim both do a good deed without any selfish motive then as I have said

there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah".

Rather the difference is as I have said

Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action. An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no particular reason why it is "for the sake of good".

In comparison I stated

Charity is a particular mindset, Islam is that mindset or in other words Islam is charity.

This charity is as I said

A Muslim's Niyat must be pure

Thus not only is charity synonymous with Islam in this context, but the pretext for that charity is for higher ideals and motivation or as our friend waitasec repeatedly puts it "for the sake of goodness".

The difference between the two is that Islam is a deafult mindset, Atheism is a lack of belief or an antithesis to Islam. Therefore, while a Muslim must be charitable there is no particular reason why an atheist must be. As I said in this regard

So if an businessman wants to take a certain course of action there is simply no dogma commanding him to enjoin in one action and not the other. He may act out of kindness and he might act out of materialistic greed.

If the businessman acts out of greed he is living in line with his own principles is he not? Yet if he is a Muslim then he is living quite clearly against the principles of Islam. Simply

If a Muslim is not charitable he betrays his beliefs. If an Atheist is not charitable then he lives his beliefs.

That is not to say that an atheist cannot be charitable or cannot have pure intentions. Rather it means that a lack of belief is a lack of a default mindset of charity and thus it is inferior.

 

[gnostic]

There is no such thing as default mindset for charity for Muslims and another mindset for all others (non-Muslims). With regards to charity, there is only one mindset, for all (Muslims, Christians, Hindus, atheists, etc). Either you're charitable or you're not.

From what I have read, you seem to confuse industry or business entity or even business man to individual atheist.

If the businessman acts out of greed he is living in line with his own principles is he not? Yet if he is a Muslim then he is living quite clearly against the principles of Islam. Simply

To me it is not a fair or accurate identification of atheists. It is generalisation.

A businessman can be anyone - Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, deist, etc, not just atheist. Even Muslims are susceptible to greed and corruption just as anyone else, when presented with opportunity, money, power or other temptations. Muslims are just willing to exploit positions of others. If you don't Muslims cannot be tempted, then you have been putting your head in the sand.

You cannot generalise that all atheists being businessmen or scientists or politicians or anything else. There are atheists who fit in this role or that, but so do Muslims.

So your argument is flawed one, and unfair one.

 

[Bismillah]

There is no such thing as default mindset for charity for Muslims and another mindset for all others (non-Muslims).

No, there is definitely a default mindset that Muslims are urged to become closer to

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (1:4)
Show us the straight path,(1:5)
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; (1:6)
Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray. (1:7)

Thus a Muslim is likely to revert to the basic tenants of his faith which are obligatory, such as charity.

An Atheist however is not because it is the exact opposite, it is the lack of beliefs, there is no particular reason why he may be charitable.

Either you're charitable or you're not.

A Muslim IS charitable however, or he is not a Muslim. Furthermore, a Muslim who is uncharitable goes against his own self-professed beliefs as opposed to an atheist who is uncharitable is living the beliefs he holds.

From what I have read, you seem to confuse industry or business entity or even business man to individual atheist.

You don't seem to understand the parable. The greedy atheist businessman, in light of his lack of belief, is not going against any of his moral tenants. The greedy Muslim businessman, is clearly going against his moral tenants. In that there is the difference.

As I said, Islam is the mindset of charity. A Muslim is either charitable or he goes against his religion and not only must he be charitable but be charitable for the best of intentions.

In comparison an atheism or lack of belief is clearly inferior because there is no specific motive or reason to be charitable or to be charitable for the right reasons and any actions an atheist takes (either benevolent or malevolent) are manifestations of his moral code.

 

[gnostic]

You don't seem to understand the parable. The greedy atheist businessman, in light of his lack of belief, is not going against any of his moral tenants. The greedy Muslim businessman, is clearly going against his moral tenants. In that there is the difference.

As I said, Islam is the mindset of charity. A Muslim is either charitable or he goes against his religion and not only must he be charitable but be charitable for the best of intentions.

In comparison an atheism or lack of belief is clearly inferior because there is no specific motive or reason to be charitable or to be charitable for the right reasons and any actions an atheist takes (either benevolent or malevolent) are manifestations of his moral code.

Fine. Fine. Have it your way.

Your parable is still stereotype and generalisation.

I am not atheist, but I'd prefer to follow my own personal code, then some barbaric and archaic patriarchal morality of Islam any time of the day. My code may not be perfect, but I would prefer anything that double-standard religious morality could come up, invented by megalomaniac and warmongering former merchant of a prophet, who was supposedly visited by angel - an Arabian fairytale.

Double standard, because you've tried to twist charity into one for Muslims, and the other for everyone else. You've basically corrupted one virtue into something else.

I may not be atheist, but after reading your parable about greedy atheist businessman just make me want to dry retch. I am glad I wasn't born to a Muslim family where I would be brainwashed into believing such rubbish that I have read from you.

 

[Bismillah]

I understand it is hard to debate, I'm sorry that you can't muster the intelligence to put up half a show .

I am not atheist, but I'd prefer to follow my own personal code

Couldn't care less, I've already said that with a lack of belief that is the default and thus any actions committed are committed with a sanctioning of one's own prestigious moral code.

then some barbaric and archaic patriarchal morality of Islam any time of the day.

You forgot warmongering ):

My code may not be perfect, but I would prefer anything that double-standard religious morality could come up

Ah double standards! It's nice that you revert to these claims and side-track the discussion when you can't keep up with the topic at hand: charity

megalomaniac and warmongering former merchant of a prophet, who was supposedly visited by angel - an Arabian fairytale.

Don't stop there!

Double standard, because you've tried to twist charity into one for Muslims, and the other for everyone else. You've basically corrupted one virtue into something else.

At last, we're at the topic. But of course you revert to personal attacks and random blubbering

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

The human consciousness is such that it can recognize between that which is good and that which is evil.

In the ideal case that an atheist and a Muslim both do a good deed without any selfish motive then as I have said "there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah"

Rather the difference is as I have said "Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action. An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no particular reason why it is "for the sake of good"."

That is not to say that an atheist cannot be charitable or cannot have pure intentions. Rather it means that a lack of belief is a lack of a default mindset of charity and thus it is inferior.

I am glad I wasn't born to a Muslim family where I would be brainwashed into believing such rubbish that I have read from you.

This is where I draw the ******* line. You don't know WHAT family I was born to or HOW religious I was. In fact you don't know one god damn thing about me, but I am glad that I was born into a family that relied on reasoning and intellectual backing sadly not all of us are so blessed apparently.

 

[.lava]

and not for the sake of doing good for goodness sake ?


this is in response to a same faith debate
in which the OP posed the question;
if you are a good person will you go to heaven?



is this true?

if you wish to reach the creator, you go to heaven. simple that is

.

 

[gnostic]

Ah double standards! It's nice that you revert to these claims and side-track the discussion when you can't keep up with the topic at hand: charity

You're the one who believe that charity from a Muslim is different to that of atheist or anyone else, as if one charity is better than another. That's what double standard is.

That you would even compare atheist to "greedy businessman" also showed you have no respect for atheists.

So let's look at this in another way.

If you require a book to tell you to being "charitable" to others, or because you want to go Paradise, because you are afraid that god might judge you negatively, and then compare it to an atheist who do good simply because he want to help others, then I believe that the later (atheist) is far more noble and selfless act.

Why do you think I think that?

Because you have some sort of conditions attached to you being "charitable". Such conditions is hardly selfless or altruistic act. You may still do good charitable work but it is conditioned by what your needs to enter heaven, which in my book is a selfish act and showing off. You're doing good for others in needs is only coincidental to your real needs, to please god.

Is that not right?

You doing good because you want to please god have higher priority than you wanting to help people?

 

[Bismillah]

You're the one who believe that charity from a Muslim is different to that of atheist or anyone else, as if one charity is better than another.

Naturally you would provide some evidence to that claim. Is there something that is stopping you from understanding this perfectly clear statement?

In the ideal case that an atheist and a Muslim both do a good deed without any selfish motive then as I have said "there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah"

I understand that some topics are sticky points, especially once the lens of criticism is levied on the nonbeliever, it is indeed an unfamiliar setting. Though I would have hoped you lot would have shown a bit more tact.

That you would even compare atheist to "greedy businessman" also showed you have no respect for atheists.

My my so touchy. Was there something that caused you to also ignore the greedy Muslim businessman? Or does that not fit into your pathetic agenda. The situation was a parable to demonstrate that the life an atheist chooses is an implementation of his own prestigious moral code whereas the life a Muslim chooses can always be criticized from an Islamic standpoint.

That "I have no respect for atheists" is certainly an idiotic conclusion from a very simple hypothetical for this specific purpose.

If you require a book to tell you to being "charitable" to others

Sink this through your head

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

The human consciousness is such that it can recognize between that which is good and that which is evil.

because you want to go Paradise

What an utter failing of everything I have argued against. Just scroll through my first post on this topic and look for the concept of Niyat http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2465517-post39.html

then compare it to an atheist who do good simply because he want to help others

Let me reiterate since you are reverting to this idiotic claim

In the ideal case that an atheist and a Muslim both do a good deed without any selfish motive then as I have said "there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah"

the later (atheist) is far more noble and selfless act.

Course you do, you just set yourself up a dandy strawman.

Why do you think I think that?

You are grasping for straws to distort the Niyat of a Muslim whose actions are inferior simply because he desires reward. I think it is pathetic reflection that you have hardly given my posts a cursory glance.

Such conditions is hardly selfless or altruistic act.

The Qur'an disagrees.

 

[waitasec]

Naturally you would provide some evidence to that claim. Is there something that is stopping you from understanding this perfectly clear statement?

here you go...

I do it because it is right. How do I know it is right? Because it is commended and mandatory in the Qur'an.


Obviously, no one is arguing against that. Rather believe in Allah requires charity which is why it is superior.

You understand that the word "good" is synonymous with Allah?

No, I believe that to be charitable one has to have a correct mindset which includes qualities such as empathy and dispels the ideals of materialism. Islam brings forth this mindset and requires charity. This is why it is superior, it is the antithesis of antipathy.

You are saying you do things for the sake of "good", I am saying that I do things for the sake of Allah.

a Muslim by definition rejects evil and enjoins in God. An action triumphs a recognition.

Like I said, to be charitable one requires a certain mindset. Islam is that mindset.

My my so touchy. Was there something that caused you to also ignore the greedy Muslim businessman? Or does that not fit into your pathetic agenda. The situation was a parable to demonstrate that the life an atheist chooses is an implementation of his own prestigious moral code whereas the life a Muslim chooses can always be criticized from an Islamic standpoint.

now that was pathetic...
broad brush strokes....

That "I have no respect for atheists" is certainly an idiotic conclusion from a very simple hypothetical for this specific purpose.

respect? yeah right...let me remind you what you just said...

The situation was a parable to demonstrate that the life an atheist chooses is an implementation of his own prestigious moral code whereas the life a Muslim chooses can always be criticized from an Islamic standpoint.

the life of an atheist is also criticized from an secular standpoint...
what's your point,
that islam is superior :biglaugh:

 

[Bismillah]

here you go...

Read it again, it is simple. It is a critique of atheism from a macro perspective, not on the individual basis. Lack of belief means that charity is not the default mindset, thus it is inferior. Those who adopt the mindset of charity and do so for a pure intention are as I have stated repeatedly

In the ideal case that an atheist and a Muslim both do a good deed without any selfish motive then as I have said "there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah"

broad brush strokes....

Are you trying to imply that I view every atheist as the "greedy businessman"? What a pathetic and unwarranted self-defense mechanism.

the life of an atheist is also criticized from an secular standpoint

The situation was a parable to demonstrate that the life an atheist chooses is an implementation of his own prestigious moral code whereas the life a Muslim chooses can always be criticized from an Islamic standpoint

Would you like to remark how that logical conclusion is false. An atheist lives in the manner that he believes to be right. Is there something causing a disconnect of the simplest of ideas.

But don't bother responding, I have seen how far you go to avoid the obvious. You are utterly boring in your inability to grasp the simplest of concepts.

 

[waitasec]

bismillah,


if it is inherent of a religious belief that you will be rewarded for doing good deeds, a person who values their integrity and self respect must question their motives for dong so. the question posited in the OP is directied towards individuals, not the religion of islam. you however consistently take the focus off of your intentions by changing the focus on to islams intentions and not only that you claim that it is superior because of it. well that isn’t necessarily true now is it? christianity and judaism and many other religions have similar tenants and even the US constitution says all men are created equal. it just seems as though you are not very secure in the fact that islam is understood to be superior…if it were it would be understood empirically by everyone. for instance, i have brown hair, now if someone were to meet me they would obviously know that i have brown hair, i don’t claim to have it, i simply have it, that is an empirical truth, but not for you, you continually claim islam is superior…
which is besides the point of this thread…why do you as an individual do good deeds, is it to get to paradice or because it comes from the goodness of your heart…?

it’s a simple question, especially for the individual who knows their reasons why, but for some reason you made it very complicated…

 

[gnostic]

If you require a book to tell you to being "charitable" to others, or because you want to go Paradise, because you are afraid that god might judge you negatively, and then compare it to an atheist who do good simply because he want to help others, then I believe that the later (atheist) is far more noble and selfless act.

(The bold red is what you have quoted.)

What an utter failing of everything I have argued against. Just scroll through my first post on this topic and look for the concept of Niyat http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...17-post39.html

How is it a failing?

You did write this:

That we recognize the truth of this universe is the premise towards then realizing that everything we do must have the niyat to become closer to God and for our love for his mercies bestowed upon us.

You did write that you have to do righteous thing, in order to get "closer to God". And technically only you get close to God, if you enter Paradise, and that required God's mercy.

As I have said there are conditions in order to get closer to God, for doing good, according to you interpretation of the Niyat. You may do good because of the goodness of your heart, which I do say is "selfless", but the moment you apply rules or conditions on why you do "good", like Niyat, then you're doing for reason that which will get closer to God.

That the underlying reason for Niyat is intention to do some thing good for God's sake; helping others for the sake of others, is only a 3rd and inferior priority to doing God's will. And this is in hope of God's mercy, future reward in the afterlife - which entry into Paradise and to get closer to God.

Hence you are doing it for yourself, more than you are doing for other people. You are doing good for your own salvation, so your Islamic "charity" is actually CONDITION-BASED.

God's mercy and entry to heaven/paradise are also conditional. One of them you require to have belief in God. Doing God's will or following his commandment is another requirement. Doing charitable for God's sake is another condition.

And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong (albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

As can be seen, in the above quote, you require COMMANDMENT to be righteous or charitable. How is that "innate ability". If you seriously require COMMANDMENT than it is not innate.

I am not saying that doing good for God's sake is not a good thing, because I think that some people need guidance or commandment. But are you being charitable for the people's sake? Or are you doing it for God's sake or for your own sake?

What we do has no Earthly motive, it is innately spiritual. This is an understanding that we will all be requited by Allah SWT. As we are born with the knowledge of and declaration

That not completely true.

You are doing it for yourself, as much as you are doing it for God, or for other people's sake.

 

[Bismillah]

You did write that you have to do righteous thing, in order to get "closer to God".

You do realize that one is requited post-action and judgment? Is such a simple concept so tremendously difficult for one to grasp? One's niyat is always for the sake of Allah, to become close to him. I am not sure what you are talking about with things such as this

And technically only you get close to God, if you enter Paradise

But one is closest to Allah when they are in sajud. Daily actions and worship make ones soul become closer to Allah, glorification and reflection are the tools for that means.

As I have said there are conditions in order to get closer to God, for doing good, according to you interpretation of the Niyat.

I plainly have stated through links hadith and the Qur'an that what a Muslim does is done for the sake of Allah there are no "conditions".

but the moment you apply rules or conditions on why you do "good", like Niyat, then you're doing for reason that which will get closer to God.

First of all Niyat means literally intention. Your sentence is nonsensical. Secondly if one does something to become closer to Allah than that is the most noble paradigm.

Like waitasec has said, ideally an atheist will do something "for the sake of goodness". Just what the hell do you think Muslims worship, unadulterated evil?

You are saying you do things for the sake of "good", I am saying that I do things for the sake of Allah. You can look upon the things commanded by Allah as the ultimate stratification and purification of "good", so yes I am doing things for the sake of "good"

That the underlying reason for Niyat is intention to do some thing good for God's sake; helping others for the sake of others

The relationship between Allah and man is of the highest order. He is Ar-Rahman transcendent mercy everlasting mercy. It is a word that fell out of use in classical Arabic because of no applicable subject, until it was revealed in the Qur'an. The word shares the same root with that of the word womb and the love between a mother and a child is the superlative form of the word for love for Allah and man. Allah's love is many times more powerful than that of a mother and her newborn. Thus doing something for the sake of Allah is doing something for the sake of betterment for the sake of ultimate good. Furthermore, one of the strongest methods by which to show our love for Allah is to better his creation, thus bettering mankind is a means to become closer to Allah.

Hence you are doing it for yourself

What an idiotic conclusion once I have repeatedly stated that we are doing it for the sake of Allah.

As can be seen, in the above quote, you require COMMANDMENT to be righteous or charitable. How is that "innate ability". If you seriously require COMMANDMENT than it is not innate.

Read it again. What is innate is mankind's ability to differentiate between good and evil.

 

[Kathryn]

Some of us are already in "paradise". The fact is, the closer one gets to reality the more distant memories of "god" become. "God" eventually becomes irrelevant.

I don't really know what to make of your statement, but if you're in a sharing mode, I'd like some of whatever you're smoking.

 

[waitasec]

Read it again. What is innate is mankind's ability to differentiate between good and evil.

Originally Posted by bismillah, post #39
And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong (albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

ok.
so everyone has the ability to know right from wrong...no one is questioning that.
what makes you think that an atheist is not compelled to do the right thing?

if mankind did whatever they pleased, humanity wouldn't have been able to survive...the reason people choose to do the right thing is for the sake of solidarity...