is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

[gnostic]

There are some certain variables that motivated the riots in Afghanistan for example, think hard I know you can do it.

What are talking about?

Are you referring to Danish cartoons?

The riots happened in more than 1 country.

And the attempts upon the cartoonist's life happened twice at his home.

And you are looking at my example without examining my points that the "knowing right from wrong" or "doing good" is no way "INNATE" among Muslims as for anyone.

If it was innate ability then Muslims should always be to do good for the sake of good or the sake of Allah.

And Islamic way of doing good is not superior among Muslims than non-Muslims. It more of arrogant speaking than anything else.

Another point I'd like to make is perhaps you are using the wrong word.

Innate means "inborn", a talent, skill or knowledge you was "born with". Innate required no teaching. It is not "acquired" ability.

If you require to read and learn from a book, like your scripture - the Qur'an, or being taught in school, by teacher, or by imam, cleric or prophet, then quite clearly IT IS NOT INNATE. It is certainly not INNATE, if you do it because Allah or the Qur'an command that you to "do good".

It is a poor choice of word. Look up the word INNATE.

 

[Bismillah]

Are you referring to Danish cartoons?

You are the one that specified Afghanistan.

And you are looking at my example without examining my points that the "knowing right from wrong" or "doing good" is no way "INNATE" among Muslims as for anyone.

There are certain things that are indeed innate such as love.

If it was innate ability then Muslims should always be to do good for the sake of good or the sake of Allah.

Just because it is innate, does not mean that our environment does not warp our thinking.

And islamic way of doing good is not superior among Muslims than non-Muslims. It more of arrogant speaking than anything else.

You are profoundly mistaken if you think that is what I stated. There is first a look at what exactly is the intention for an action which determines its value. In Islam one does it for the sake of Allah that is why it is superior to any worldly desire. Secondly the reason why I said it is superior is because a Muslim must be charitable, that is the key. Acting upon knowledge.

If you require to read and learn from a book, like your scripture - the Qur'an, or being taught in school, by teacher, by imam, cleric or prophet, then quite clearly IT IS NOT INNATE.

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray. [Qur'an 1:7]

Does that answer your question?

 

[gnostic]

You are the one that specified Afghanistan.

No, I didn't. I only mentioned riots or violent protests but didn't actually specify a country, let alone Afghanistan. I did mention a murder of nun in Syria, in connection with cartoons, but other than that, no mention of Afghanistan in post 61 or 79.

There are certain things that are indeed innate such as love.

But we are not talking about love.

We're talking about doing good or knowing right from wrong. Several times, you wrote that this ability to do good is innate among Muslims, and from what you have written it implied all Muslims.

What we do has no Earthly motive, it is innately spiritual. This is an understanding that we will all be requited by Allah SWT. As we are born with the knowledge of and declaration

And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful. [3:104 Al-Qur'an]

And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong (albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

Here (below quote) you did say man (which implied everyone) have innate ability to know right from wrong:

Odd, I plainly stated that man innately can recognize good and evil.

I do it because it is right. How do I know it is right? Because it is commended and mandatory in the Qur'an.

...and again in post 71:

That however, does not address the point I made, that man can innately tell the difference between right and wrong.

But then again, you mention Qur'an, but learning from the Qur'an as a commandment (you mentioned "mandatory" here), hence it cannot be in any way INNATE.

But then you reverted, at stated later:

A man can tell right from wrong, the difference lies that a Muslim must always be righteous and that his actions are innately done "for the sake of good". I could careless that a person can do good deeds without religion, any first grader can recognize that. Islam is a comprehensive style of life in that every action is righteous and done so for the most esteemed of causes and that is why it is superior.

Another thing, in this particular, you "always be righteous". Don't you think that over-generalisation?

Is "... every action is righteous"?

Do you seriously think that all Muslims are always righteous?

Post 78, which I had quoted, are sweeping statements.

Your replies to waitasec:

Wrong. I don't think my deed is superior. Rather what is superior is if one man acts and the other doesn't.

It boils down to this: Islam is superior because it is the mindset of charity. A nonbeliever may or may not act on those impulses he knows is right, a believer does.

Hence, I think it is why I think your posts sounded arrogant as any self-righteous Christian. How can I not think that?

 

[Bismillah]

No, I didn't. I only mentioned riots or violent protests but didn't actually specify a country, let alone Afghanistan. I did mention a murder of nun in Syria, in connection with cartoons, but other than that, no mention of Afghanistan in post 61 or 79.

My mistake.

But we are not talking about love.

What we are talking about is unbelievably vague, so yes it does include love. Love for example between a child and a mother and kindness towards parents, an innate feeling. Or love for man and rejection of murder, an innate feeling.

Several times, you wrote that this ability to do good is innate among Muslims, and from what you have written it implied all Muslims.

Among Muslims only?

And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong (albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

But then again, you mention Qur'an, but learning from the Qur'an as a commandment (you mentioned "mandatory" here), hence it cannot be in any way INNATE.

Did you actually read the verse I quoted for you? Let me go back and show you

The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray. [Qur'an 1:7]

Make sense yet?

But then you reverted, at stated later:

Show me how that is a reversion?

Another thing, in this particular, you "always be righteous". Don't you think that over-generalisation?

This really is tiresome. I am talking about Islamic ideals and have already talked about Niyat in Islam four pages back.

Hence, I think it is why I think your posts sounded arrogant as any self-righteous Christian. How can I not think that?

You see what you want to see, namely arrogance in religion. Of course that does not make it so. As I stated the Islamic ideal of Niyat transcends any worldly motives. It is quite irksome when I am discussing ideals within theology and you swoop in to counter with irrelevant examples.

I said it is superior because a Muslim is necessarily charitable and acts on the feelings empathy that exist within us all.

 

[waitasec]

according to bismillah a person isn't a person unless they follow the islamic religion...
otherwise they're just a waste of time and space...

 

[Bismillah]

God that just fails at comprehension and intelligence on just about all levels.

 

[waitasec]

One would be quite daft to think that. In fact you have repeated that idiotic statement across three pages now. A man can tell right from wrong, the difference lies that a Muslim must always be righteous and that his actions are innately done "for the sake of good".

i never insulted your intelligence...why would you insult mine..?
besides...if you must always be righteous...you need to rethink why you insulted me...was it for ego sake or for the sake of allah?

I could careless that a person can do good deeds without religion,

why doesn't that surprise me...?

Islam is a comprehensive style of life in that every action is righteous and done so for the most esteemed of causes

but of course, to get to paradise no less...

and that is why it is superior.

no not really, it's just ordinary

 

[Bismillah]

i never insulted your intelligence...why would you insult mine..?

Because we've covered this simple concept for a couple pages now and the most you can deduce is that I don't "see the good in others" and that "people are a waste of space without Islam" both of which are indeed idiotic notions.

besides...if you must always be righteous...you need to rethink why you insulted me...was it for ego sake or for the sake of allah?

As I said this is a religious ideal.

why doesn't that surprise me...?

It shouldn't it is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

but of course, to get to paradise no less...

Of course Paradise is a reward...based upon the actions of man.

no not really, it's just ordinary

Of course you fail at even addressing the basic premise. I understand you are unwilling to grasp this concept, that's fine. I've felt like I've explained it clear and concise enough for any objective onlooker to understand. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[waitasec]

And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong

so far this is logical

(albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

funny thing is... they don't have to be and have demonstrated their capacity just as any other good muslim...

for some reason you feel this need to set the islamic faith a part, why?
all religious and non religious people have the same capacity, right?

 

[Bismillah]

all religious and non religious people have the same capacity, right?

Exactly. Yet it is the duty of a Muslim to act upon his capabilities.

 

[waitasec]

according to bismillah a person isn't a person unless they follow the islamic religion...
otherwise they're just a waste of time and space...

God that just fails at comprehension and intelligence on just about all levels.

how else is one to interpret statements like this?

In Islam one does it for the sake of Allah that is why it is superior to any worldly desire. Secondly the reason why I said it is superior is because a Muslim must be charitable, that is the key. Acting upon knowledge.

yet an atheist has no ulterior motive to do good deeds simply because it's done for the sake of goodness...

 

[Gharib]

waitasec a question to you:

that wealth that you have, where did it come from and to whom does it belong?

 

[waitasec]

waitasec a question to you:

that wealth that you have, where did it come from and to whom does it belong?

i write music...i am self employed and a i am partner of a recording studio.
most of my earnings are from work for hire or residuals.
sometimes i walk dogs too.
the money belongs to my son... at least in his mind... :yes:

may i ask the same of you?

 

[Gharib]

my wealth comes from Allah:

[29:62] Allah enlarges the sustenance (which He gives) to whichever of His servants He pleases; and He (similarly) grants by (strict) measure, (as He pleases): for Allah has full knowledge of all things.

so when Allah says spend it (ie help those in need with what i have in exces) then that is what i do because ultimately a muslim does not see himself as owning anything in this life thus everything belongs to/comes from Allah, that is why we give for his sake. does that make any sense?

does this sort of help out with the misconception?

 

[waitasec]

my wealth comes from Allah:

[29:62] Allah enlarges the sustenance (which He gives) to whichever of His servants He pleases; and He (similarly) grants by (strict) measure, (as He pleases): for Allah has full knowledge of all things.

so when Allah says spend it (ie help those in need with what i have in exces) then that is what i do because ultimately a muslim does not see himself as owning anything in this life thus everything belongs to/comes from Allah, that is why we give for his sake. does that make any sense?

does this sort of help out with the misconception?

so what do you do in order to get your wealth?

 

[waitasec]

my wealth comes from Allah:

oh i see,
from what i do that supports integrity and self respect...

i don't think i ever used the word "wealth" so i misunderstood your question

 

[waitasec]

so when Allah says spend it (ie help those in need with what i have in exces) then that is what i do because ultimately a muslim does not see himself as owning anything in this life thus everything belongs to/comes from Allah, that is why we give for his sake. does that make any sense?

but people do that without belief in allah, that is a no brainer, that is your dilemma.

does this sort of help out with the misconception?

no because you continually reaffirm that good deeds are done for the sake of allah...
ultimately it is for your sake...because if you're doing it for allah then you are doing it for your self...

consider dr jonas salk, who did more for humanity then allah, mohammed or jesus ...now this was a man who did great works for the sake of goodness...
hands down.

 

[Bismillah]

In Islam one does it for the sake of Allah that is why it is superior to any worldly desire. Secondly the reason why I said it is superior is because a Muslim must be charitable, that is the key. Acting upon knowledge.

If one talks this statement

In Islam one does it for the sake of Allah that is why it is superior to any worldly desire. Secondly the reason why I said it is superior is because a Muslim must be charitable, that is the key. Acting upon knowledge.

And take it to mean this

according to bismillah a person isn't a person unless they follow the islamic religion...
otherwise they're just a waste of time and space...

God...

An atheist does so for the sake of goodness, yes thank you we got that the first 13 times you posted that. Despite that unproved fallible claim there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah".



Where the superiority becomes relevant in this particular hypothetical is that a Muslim is obligated to be charitable, an atheist is not.

 

[waitasec]

Despite that unproved fallible claim there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah".

people are people...no one is better or acts better or does good deeds better than the next guy...otherwise what do you mean by "unprovable fallible claim" that there is no difference...you claim there is...that is unprovable and fallible...people are people.
so yes acording to you people are not people unless they do good deeds for the sake of allah....:slap:
are you that detached from reality that you do not realize how pompous your statement is?

Where the superiority becomes relevant in this particular hypothetical is that a Muslim is obligated to be charitable, an atheist is not.

obligated...? does that mean if a muslim is not obligated, in the islamic belief, they won't do good deeds....i don't think so... apparently you do
because that is what you are implying by saying muslims are obligated....

 

[Bismillah]

otherwise what do you mean by "unprovable fallible claim"

An atheist does "something for the sake of good" yeah that's complete rubbish. Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action. An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no reason why it is "for the sake of good".

Then you attempt to manipulate that into stating that I think atheists are inherently worthless

And then you state

so yes acording to you people are not people unless they do good deeds for the sake of allah

God the breakdown in reading comprehension doesn't even begin hear, it's cognitive dissonance at its finest.

there is no difference between an atheist's action "for the sake of goodness" and a Muslim's action "for the sake of Allah".

obligated...? does that mean if a muslim is not obligated, in the islamic belief, they won't do good deeds....i don't think so... apparently you do

Clearly not, I mean how many points do I have to repeat a single point until it sinks in? Give me an honest answer 20 more times a 100?

Islam is the ideal mindset for saddaqa or charity. As such a Muslim is always charitable, whereas an atheist may be or may not be. Thus Islam is superior.

The idea of compatibility hedges on the mindset of an individual, Islam is that mindset.