is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

[YmirGF]

I think it is a sad indictment on humanity when people need a reason to do good deeds. Why would anyone need anything beyond knowing they had truly helped another? Sounds a bit egotistical to me.

 

[Cordoba]

are you saying it is impossible to do good for the sake of goodness without
submission, believing and perfection? because i disagree with that.
there are no moral deeds a believer can do that a non believer cannot...

Waitasec !!

Where did I say that a non-believer can't do moral deeds?

 

[beenie]

When I was a child, I loved pleasing my parents (in fact, even as an adult I love pleasing my parents, because they are so appreciative). When I helped my brother with his homework, or took good care of my pet hamster, I did so for a variety of reasons, one of which was that it pleased my parents for me to be obedient.

That doesn't mean that I didn't want to help my brother, or take good care of my hamster. It doesn't mean that without that urge to please my parents, I simply wouldn't have acted irresponsibly. It simply means that pleasing my parents was one of many motivational factors in my life.

Faith works in much the same way.

Also, sometimes, let's just face it, we don't always feel like doing the right thing. We're lazy, or tired, or scared, or intimidated, or confused - we can all get to that stage regardless of whether we embrace a particular faith or not.

It's in THOSE times that faith strengthens those who embrace it and gives us the fortitude to push forward. That's not to say we couldn't do so without faith - but different things motivate different people.

To each his own. We should probably worry more about what motivates us (as individuals) rather than trying to judge what motivates others.

COMPLETELY agree.

I think it is a sad indictment on humanity when people need a reason to do good deeds. Why would anyone need anything beyond knowing they had truly helped another? Sounds a bit egotistical to me.

Me too. I don't need a reason. I do, however, like making people happy. I love seeing the smile on their faces when I've held a door open for them even with my 6 children in-tow, I love watching a child's face light up when I help them finish a drawing (not only my children, but others'). I don't need to have a reason to do good deeds; their appreciation is enough for me.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec !!

Where did I say that a non-believer can't do moral deeds?

that's why i asked...? i wasn't sure.
you gave me three reasons and they were all faith based.

that is why i wasn't sure...

 

[beenie]

I think all people can do good deeds. I've seen the least religious do some of the most kind deeds, and afterwards, they don't even want the recognition! They did the nice acts out of their genuine want to do them, not for the glitz and glamour.

 

[YmirGF]

I think all people can do good deeds. I've seen the least religious do some of the most kind deeds, and afterwards, they don't even want the recognition! They did the nice acts out of their genuine want to do them, not for the glitz and glamour.

I think this underscores the fact that no amount of piety can trump turning one's back on empathy and humanity.

 

[beenie]

I think this underscores the fact that no amount of piety can trump turning one's back on empathy and humanity.

It sure does.

 

[Muhktar]

We act according to Allah's will, and Allah loves for us to be kind and empathetic.
So in turn as a good person I enjoy having empathy and being kind to others. This is because A: I get the immediate reward of good feeling for helping someone and because B: Allah has willed for me to be empathetic and for doing so I will be rewarded in the hereafter.

'Good' depends on persective and opinion, so of course Allah would not just ask us to do good things for the sake of pleasing Him. He asks us to do good things via kindness, empathy, hospitality and generosity so that we may also know what is right and wrong way of feeling about the acts we do.

If Allah asked us to help people only out of greed for the reward afterwards, then we would be greedy, and that is a sin. Therefore we do these things through certain righteous emotions, for the sake of Allah. We also should not just help people while THINKING bad things about them, that would also be sin. We should sync kind actions with kind thoughts, and that is what I believe Allah wants from us in accordance with kindess.

I hope that wasn't too much waffle and confusion.

 

[gnostic]

Doing good for Allah because of the fear of god or the fear of hell, or in the hope for reward or to secure a place in heaven seems to me to be more of selfish act than a selfless act.

If you do good for one of those (above) reasons then you are essentially doing good for gains (for either to get to heaven or to avoid hell).

A person who do good for no (personal or earthly or spiritual) gain, then he wouldn't need REASONS to perform such honorable deeds. You wouldn't need God's bidding. That would be selfless act.

 

[zenzero]

Friend waitasec,

is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

It has been realized that one is already in paradise/garden of eden/swarg/etc.

One falls from this state when the mind [thoughts arises]. Thoughts [mind] is what creates a divide between the individual and paradise and so always take that the MIND itself is the SATAN even in the old testament it is MIND or SATAN that proves human to listen to it [mind/satan] and by doing so it falls from paradise.

The interpretation by Muhammud should be similar.
Since interpretation is through a mind which itself is the barrier, all interpretation will remain away from TRUTH.

Love & rgds

 

[Gharib]

1. integrity and self respect
2. from my perspective, fear of not gaining access to paradise
3. sometimes it's inconvenient
4. the intention becomes blurry.

with those 4 questions that i asked i wanted to see how honest you were going to be and judge based on that if you have a personal agenda or if you just simply do not see how intentions work in islam. it is clear from the level of dishonesty in your answers that you have a personal agenda and no matter what is said you will still be right and others who have a different perspective from you wrong.

i don't like to have pointless discussion just for the sake of arguing.
thanks waitasec.

 

[Vendetta]

The problem with the view of Islam and paradise is that Allah is a conditional deity. This means that Allah's mercy is just insofar as I am obedient to him. Even if I am not obedient Allah's mercy runs out after death. If I am a pagan (despite being good) I will burn in hell because I believe in multiple gods. To me, it appears that God seems to be more tribalistic that an incorporeal and majestic deity. As esalem states if I die in unbelief, Allah will send me to hell. Well what if my unbelief results in:

1) An influence and dissatisfaction of Islam from the negative perceptions I see on T.V.

2) A genuine dislike of Islam such as the feeling "this religion isn't for me."

3) I perceive other religions better on the basis of my comfort level

4) I am skeptical of the Quran and Islamic history

5) Islamic theology via the Holy Quran focuses more on punishment and reward than on the human spirit.

Mind you these are potential perceptions anyone could have of any of the Abrahamic religions.. I believe this can be easily applicable to any religion (just change the words and names around of course). I think any God who would admit someone in heaven because they didn't believe in its existence is a conditional deity

 

[Kathryn]

I think we're all going to be surprised by who is in paradise and who is not.

 

[Gharib]

The problem with the view of Islam and paradise is that Allah is a conditional deity. This means that Allah's mercy is just insofar as I am obedient to him. Even if I am not obedient Allah's mercy runs out after death. If I am a pagan (despite being good) I will burn in hell because I believe in multiple gods. To me, it appears that God seems to be more tribalistic that an incorporeal and majestic deity. As esalem states if I die in unbelief, Allah will send me to hell.

Allahs mercy doesn't exculde anyone who is disobedient (a non-muslim) to him, one of the 99 names of Allah is the following:

Ar-Rahman

'The One Who has an abundance of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and exclusively for the believers in the Hereafter.'

Well what if my unbelief results in:

1) An influence and dissatisfaction of Islam from the negative perceptions I see on T.V.

2) A genuine dislike of Islam such as the feeling "this religion isn't for me."

3) I perceive other religions better on the basis of my comfort level

4) I am skeptical of the Quran and Islamic history

5) Islamic theology via the Holy Quran focuses more on punishment and reward than on the human spirit.

here's a better question, why aren't YOU a muslim?

Mind you these are potential perceptions anyone could have of any of the Abrahamic religions.. I believe this can be easily applicable to any religion (just change the words and names around of course). I think any God who would admit someone in heaven because they didn't believe in its existence is a conditional deity

All people will not be muslims just as all people will not be christian or jewish, or hindu, or buddhist or atheist etc.

by your last sentence i think you mean that 'any god who would NOT admit someone in paradise because they didn't believe is a conditional deity'

well then what kind of a god would god be if those who spent their lives worshiping that diety and living according to his rules were to have the same outcome/destination/reward as those who never worshiped him, those who mocked him and those that worshiped other gods? it would only be fair that if you believe in a god other than the real god that you should not expect any reward from him and just wait for your God that you worshiped to reward you.

i myself as a muslim who believes in Allah do not expect a reward from a god of some other faith. for example if it turns out that i was wrong in my beliefs about Allah being god, then that other real god has every right to punish me for not having believed in him.

it seems to me that you are afraid of Allahs punishment and think he is unjust even though you believe he doesn't exist. doesn't that say something.

 

[Vendetta]

Allahs mercy doesn't exculde anyone who is disobedient (a non-muslim) to him, one of the 99 names of Allah is the following:

Ar-Rahman

'The One Who has an abundance of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and exclusively for the believers in the Hereafter.'



here's a better question, why aren't YOU a muslim?



All people will not be muslims just as all people will not be christian or jewish, or hindu, or buddhist or atheist etc.

by your last sentence i think you mean that 'any god who would NOT admit someone in paradise because they didn't believe is a conditional deity'

well then what kind of a god would god be if those who spent their lives worshiping that diety and living according to his rules were to have the same outcome/destination/reward as those who never worshiped him, those who mocked him and those that worshiped other gods? it would only be fair that if you believe in a god other than the real god that you should not expect any reward from him and just wait for your God that you worshiped to reward you.

i myself as a muslim who believes in Allah do not expect a reward from a god of some other faith. for example if it turns out that i was wrong in my beliefs about Allah being god, then that other real god has every right to punish me for not having believed in him.

it seems to me that you are afraid of Allahs punishment and think he is unjust even though you believe he doesn't exist. doesn't that say something.

Why aren't I Muslim? Good question.

I studied Islam while over seas. You can say, my curiousity was a result of my experience in Afghanistan. I read the Quran from front to back, studied islam, read on Islamic Jurisprudence, visited a mosque etc. All these things sounded appealing but essentially I found Islam no different than Judaism and Christianity. Essentially God to me in those religions tell me, he loves me if and only if I follow him if I don't, I am doomed.

 

[Gharib]

Why aren't I Muslim? Good question.

I studied Islam while over seas. You can say, my curiousity was a result of my experience in Afghanistan. I read the Quran from front to back, studied islam, read on Islamic Jurisprudence, visited a mosque etc. All these things sounded appealing but essentially I found Islam no different than Judaism and Christianity. Essentially God to me in those religions tell me, he loves me if and only if I follow him if I don't, I am doomed.

thats how everything else works, so why is it that when it comes to god it all of a sudden he doesn't exist.

i will quote to you some verses of the qur'an and some hadith once i have them ready.

 

[BruceDLimber]

[W]hat kind of god would god be if those who spent their lives worshiping that diety and living according to his rules were to have the same outcome/destination/reward as those who never worshiped him, those who mocked him and those that worshiped other gods?

In fact, according to the Baha'i scriptures, all will eventually attain the same end (nearness to God, known as Heaven) due to God's infinite Love and Mercy, though their starting point in the Next Life will vary depending on their lives here and now.

I myself, as a muslim who believes in Allah, do not expect a reward....

Nor should you!

As the Baha'i scriptures state:

"So worship God that if the recompense of thy worship of Him were to be the Fire, no alteration in thy worship of Him would be produced. If you worship from fear, that is unworthy of the threshold of the holiness of God.… So also, if your gaze is on Paradise and if you worship in hope of that; for then you have made God’s creation a Partner with Him."
--The Bayan

Peace,

Bruce

 

[waitasec]

with those 4 questions that i asked i wanted to see how honest you were going to be and judge based on that if you have a personal agenda or if you just simply do not see how intentions work in islam. it is clear from the level of dishonesty in your answers that you have a personal agenda and no matter what is said you will still be right and others who have a different perspective from you wrong.

i don't like to have pointless discussion just for the sake of arguing.
thanks waitasec.

my question to you is, how do you know i was being dishonest?
yes, it is apparent you do not want to get into this, the question is why.
if your integrity is true then why would you have a problem explaining why it is you do good deeds...
for allah and to gain access to paradice or because it is for the sake of goodness.
most have answered but i'm trying to understand your reason for saying
doing good for goodness sake is not good enough...i'm not interested in what the koran says...

here are my answers in the context presented...

a few questions:
1. what are the benefits from doing good for the sake of goodness?

integrity and self respect

2. what are the benefits from doing good for the sake of Allah?

from my perspective, fear of not gaining access to paradise

3. what non-benefit comes out of doing good for the sake of goodness?

sometimes it's inconvenient

4. what non-benefit comes out of doing good for the sake of Allah?

the intention becomes blurry.

can you understand why i would want to ask you this because, if you think doing good for the sake of good isn't good enough, are you the type of person who has no moral responsibility...if it were not for the promise of paradise...?

 

[Bismillah]

The Qur'an states

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know, inherently, the difference between good and evil.

People making this argument do not clearly have a grasp of Niyat or intention which must be pure and made for the love of Allah

For example this story in the link

We gave an example of a story the Prophet related to stress the importance of good deeds and how they benefit the person doing them. The story tells of three people seeking refuge in a cave, but as they were in, a large rock fell off the mountain and landed at the cave entrance, blocking it completely so that they could not even see the sky. They counseled each other to remember some of their good deeds and pray to God to help them in their difficulty. The first one spoke of his dutifulness to his parents, the second mentioned how he refrained from committing adultery with the woman he loved so dearly, and the third spoke of how he took care of the wages of a laborer he had hired until they multiplied manifold and then he handed all the proceeds to the laborer who came back to demand his wages. Each of these deeds was done purely for God’s sake. The first man, who came home late to find his elderly parents having slept before he could feed them, did not disturb their sleep and did not feed his children before his parents. He realized that dutifulness to parents was paramount. Had he fed his children, he would not have committed a sin, but he would have fell short of the standard of dutifulness he wished to maintain. The second man loved the woman so much that he was prepared to go to every length in order to give her what she wanted so that she would yield to his desire and sleep with him. When she reminded him of God and told him to fear Him, he just left off, knowing that he could have had her and she could not have prevented him. The third man invested the laborer’s wages and managed to achieve very high returns that instead of a small sack of rice, he was able to give the laborer several cows and their feed. He could have kept the wages safe until the man came back. When he achieved such a high rate of return, he could have retained some of it as his commission. But he wanted nothing of this. He gave it all up to the laborer. In each of these stories, the moral is the purity of intention. The good deed was done purely for God’s sake. There was no immediate benefit for the person concerned. All that the men hoped for as a result was that God would record the deed as done for His sake. None of these acts involved any great sacrifice. None meant much effort, but the point is that they had that great element of purity of intention. Hence they were accepted by God.

Prophet Muhammad - 27: Good deeds and pure intentions - Arab News

Righteousness does not consist in whether you turn your faces towards the east or the west; what is righteous is to believe in God and the last day, and the angels, and the Book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practise regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and in times of war. Such as do so are people of truth. Such are the God-fearing. (Al-Baqara, 177)

That we recognize the truth of this universe is the premise towards then realizing that everything we do must have the niyat to become closer to God and for our love for his mercies bestowed upon us.

They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of God, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive, (Saying)"We feed you for the sake of God alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks." "We only fear a day of distressful wrath from our Lord." (Al- Insan 7-10)

What we do has no Earthly motive, it is innately spiritual. This is an understanding that we will all be requited by Allah SWT. As we are born with the knowledge of and declaration

And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful. [3:104 Al-Qur'an]

And our innate abilities to foretell right from wrong, Muslims then have the same compelling actions of an atheist of acting based on the principles of right and wrong (albeit NOWHERE does an Atheist have to be righteous and charitable as a Muslim is commanded to).

However where we differ is the mercy and glory of Islam. On the first basis since Muslims do not do these actions for themselves or to “feel good” but solely for the external cause for the love for Allah

O you who believe! Do not cancel out your charity by reminders of your generosity or by injury,- like those who spend their substance to be seen by others, believing neither in God nor in the last day. They are in parable like a hard, barren rock, on which there is little soil: on it falls heavy rain, which leaves it just a bare stone. They will be able to do nothing with anything they have earned. And God does not guide those who reject faith. Those who spend their substance, seeking to please God and to strengthen their souls, are like a garden, high and fertile: heavy rain falls on it, and makes it yield a double harvest, and if it does not receive heavy rain, light moisture suffices it. God sees well whatever you do. (Al-Baqara, 264-265)

We have prepared a shameful punishment for those who spend their wealth for the sake of ostentation but who have no faith in God and the last day: If any take the evil one for their intimate, what a dreadful intimate he is! And what burden would it be on them if they had faith in God and in the last day, and they spent out of what God has given them for sustenance? For God has full knowledge of them. (An-Nisa, 38-39)

Our righteousness and charitable isn’t borne out of feelings of self-satisfaction in other words and can never be thought of as that of ostentation. And on the second basis because we act on the principles of right and wrong and also acknowledge the day of judgment we are prompted to act on this knowledge!

All humans are dead except those who have knowledge; and all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds; and those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere; and those who are sincere are always in a state of worry. – Imam Shafi

An atheist might admire and want to commit himself to charity, but a Muslim accepts that it is an obligation upon himself. We are forced into a state of action, instead of a state of antipathy.

So while Atheism does not mean a person will not do anything laudable, a Muslim means that a person will do laudable deeds throughout his life.

 

[Bismillah]

The problem with the view of Islam and paradise is that Allah is a conditional deity. This means that Allah's mercy is just insofar as I am obedient to him. Even if I am not obedient Allah's mercy runs out after death. If I am a pagan (despite being good) I will burn in hell because I believe in multiple gods. To me, it appears that God seems to be more tribalistic that an incorporeal and majestic deity. As esalem states if I die in unbelief, Allah will send me to hell. Well what if my unbelief results in:

[SIZE=-1]Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "You (Muslims) cannot be more pressing in claiming from me a right that has been clearly proved to be yours than the believers in interceding with Almighty for their (Muslim) brothers on that Day, when they see themselves safe. They will say, 'O Allah! (Save) our brothers (for they) used to pray with us, fast with us and also do good deeds with us.' Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one (gold) Dinar.' Allah will forbid the Fire to burn the faces of those sinners. They will go to them and find some of them in Hell (Fire) up to their feet, and some up to the middle of their legs. So they will take out those whom they will recognize and then they will return, and Allah will say (to them), 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of one half Dinar.' They will take out whomever they will recognize and return, and then Allah will say, 'Go and take out (of Hell) anyone in whose heart you find faith equal to the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant), and so they will take out all those whom they will recognize." Abu Sa'id said: If you do not believe me then read the Holy Verse, "'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it." (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life. They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'" Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Those who no not of true Islam are judged on what they did with what was available to them, those who reject Islam when the inviolable truth has reached them are condemend for they have no reason to reject Itmam i hujjah.
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