is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

[zenzero]

Friend Kathyrn,

I think we're all going to be surprised by who is in paradise and who is not.

Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
before that let us settle to understand what and where *paradise* is.
The garden of eden that one lives in is HERE-NOW!; are we speaking of the same *paradise* or is it just an imaginary place where Gabriel, St. Peters are said to reside.
Mind [satan] has no limits!
Love & rgds

 

[waitasec]

The Qur'an states

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know, inherently, the difference between good and evil.

People making this argument do not clearly have a grasp of Niyat or intention which must be pure and made for the love of Allah

the intention gets muddled...

how can anyone determine if their intention is pure if an award has been presented for doing good acts or an ultimatum if good works are not done...
my point being, if i do good works as an atheist, i have a clear understanding why i do them... i do not need an ulterior motive...therefore i can say, as an atheist, my intentions are pure for doing good deeds.

All humans are dead except those who have knowledge; and all those who have knowledge are asleep, except those who do good deeds; and those who do good deeds are deceived, except those who are sincere; and those who are sincere are always in a state of worry. – Imam Shafi

well as i just said, how does one know they are sincere if presented with an award or an ultimatum...?
seems that atheists are in a better position to be able to determine their sincerity...

An atheist might admire and want to commit himself to charity, but a Muslim accepts that it is an obligation upon himself. We are forced into a state of action, instead of a state of antipathy.

i'm not sure what you are saying...are you implying that atheist do not have an obligation to do good deeds for the sake of integrity and self respect?

So while Atheism does not mean a person will not do anything laudable, a Muslim means that a person will do laudable deeds throughout his life.

not true...in fact, that is a fallacy.

 

[waitasec]

Friend waitasec,


It has been realized that one is already in paradise/garden of eden/swarg/etc.

One falls from this state when the mind [thoughts arises]. Thoughts [mind] is what creates a divide between the individual and paradise and so always take that the MIND itself is the SATAN even in the old testament it is MIND or SATAN that proves human to listen to it [mind/satan] and by doing so it falls from paradise.

The interpretation by Muhammud should be similar.
Since interpretation is through a mind which itself is the barrier, all interpretation will remain away from TRUTH.

Love & rgds

ignorance is bliss...

 

[Vendetta]

thats how everything else works, so why is it that when it comes to god it all of a sudden he doesn't exist.

i will quote to you some verses of the qur'an and some hadith once i have them ready.

I dont reject Allah, or some incomprehensible deity, I reject the modern notion of attributes of Allah. I personally feel that Allah isn't presented in a positive light in the behaviors of men.

 

[Bismillah]

the intention gets muddled...

Perhaps for atheists it is hard to divine a certain purpose, Niyyat is a reoccurring and underlying theme of Islam.

how can anyone determine if their intention is pure if an award has been presented for doing good acts or an ultimatum if good works are not done...

As I said earlier, humans have the ability to discern good from evil. That is a fact. There is then the situation presented to mankind of this innate knowledge and the question of acting upon it.

In Islam, as the links and verses and hadiths I quoted forcibly demonstrated, the action is done purely for the sake of Allah. We do not judge the merits of our actions, that would be presumptuous, arrogant, and unbecoming.

If a man is motivated from a fear or for desiring the bounties of Allah then khalas the man does charitable deeds and they are well received. He actively strives to change the pitiful condition of his fellow man for the sake of Allah and that is more beautiful for it has not worldly desire. Whatever is granted to him is done after the action on the basis of just reward.

“All actions are judged by motives, and each person will be rewarded according to their intention. Thus, he whose migration was to God and His Messenger, his migration is to God and His Messenger; but he whose migration was for some worldly thing he might gain, or for a wife he might marry, his migration is to that for which he migrated.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

Helping a person or his belongings onto his mount is an act of charity. A good word is charity. Every step taken on the way to performing prayers is charity. Removing an obstacle from the road is charity.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari)

If he is working to support his small children, then it is for the sake of God. If he is working to support his elderly parents, then it is for the sake of God. If he is working to occupy himself and keep his desires in check, then it is for the sake of God. If, on the other hand, he is doing so to show off and earn fame, then he is working for the sake of Satan.” (al-Mundhiri, as-Suyuti)

When one of you sleeps with his wife, it is an act of charity.” (Saheeh Muslim)

God is pure and good, and He accepts only what is pure and good.” (Saheeh Muslim)

i'm not sure what you are saying...are you implying that atheist do not have an obligation to do good deeds for the sake of integrity and self respect?

I am stating that to be charitable requires a certain mindset and Islam forces upon man that mindset as an obligation and that is why it will always triumph over any so called superiority of secular humanitarianism. I have lived in the West long enough to have witnessed the greed and materialism that infest this society under the gaudy label of individualism.

not true...in fact, that is a fallacy.

Simply calling it a fallacy does not make it any less true

"So while Atheism does not mean a person will not do anything laudable, a Muslim means that a person will do laudable deeds throughout his life."

 

[Vendetta]

thats how everything else works, so why is it that when it comes to god it all of a sudden he doesn't exist.

i will quote to you some verses of the qur'an and some hadith once i have them ready.

I dont reject Allah, or some incomprehensible deity, I reject the modern notion of attributes of Allah. I personally feel that Allah isn't presented in a positive light in the behaviors of men.

 

[waitasec]

Perhaps for atheists it is hard to divine a certain purpose, Niyyat is a reoccurring and underlying theme of Islam.

As I said earlier, humans have the ability to discern good from evil. That is a fact. There is then the situation presented to mankind of this innate knowledge and the question of acting upon it.

In Islam, as the links and verses and hadiths I quoted forcibly demonstrated, the action is done purely for the sake of Allah. We do not judge the merits of our actions, that would be presumptuous, arrogant, and unbecoming.

so in other words, if you didn't do it for allah...you wouldn't have a desire to do it?

If a man is motivated from a fear or for desiring the bounties of Allah then khalas the man does charitable deeds and they are well received. He actively strives to change the pitiful condition of his fellow man for the sake of Allah and that is more beautiful for it has not worldly desire. Whatever is granted to him is done after the action on the basis of just reward.

looks like an ulterior motive...a selfish motive no less...

“All actions are judged by motives, and each person will be rewarded according to their intention.

if you are a person who values integrity and self respect this would ring true.
and there is no need to believe in god or allah in order to appreciate that reward...

Thus, he whose migration was to God and His Messenger, his migration is to God and His Messenger; but he whose migration was for some worldly thing he might gain, or for a wife he might marry, his migration is to that for which he migrated.” (Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Saheeh Muslim)

nope. doing good for the sake of good is the reward for those who value integrity and self respect...

I am stating that to be charitable requires a certain mindset and Islam forces upon man that mindset as an obligation and that is why it will always triumph over any so called superiority of secular humanitarianism. I have lived in the West long enough to have witnessed the greed and materialism that infest this society under the gaudy label of individualism.

so you actually believe one has to be forced in order to do good deeds?
this maybe true for you but it's not true for everyone

Simply calling it a fallacy does not make it any less true

just as saying

"So while Atheism does not mean a person will not do anything laudable, a Muslim means that a person will do laudable deeds throughout his life."

doesn't make it true either...question is, what is the more reasonable position
doing good works for the sake of goodness is possible or it's not...

 

[Cordoba]

God put in all people, believers and non-believers, two main types of instincts: good and bad

A person who is able to reduce in himself/herself negative instincts and promote virtue and positive instincts normally does more good than bad

When doing good, a believer does it first of all in order to please God, as deeds are judged by intentions, and also because of having virtue

A non-believer on the other hand who has a high level of virtue does good deeds thanks to the good instincts God has put in his/heart since birth which he/she has developed throughout life

Does that help reconcile the matter?

 

[waitasec]

God put in all people, believers and non-believers, two main types of instincts: good and bad

A person who is able to reduce in himself/herself negative instincts and promote virtue and positive instincts normally does more good than bad

When doing good, a believer does it first of all in order to please God, as deeds are judged by intentions, and also because of having virtue

A non-believer on the other hand who has a high level of virtue does good deeds thanks to the good instincts God has put in his/heart since birth which he/she has developed throughout life

Does that help reconcile the matter?

so let me ask you this.
if a non believer is capable of doing good for the sake of good, why then must god be needed for the believer to do good for the sake of god?

 

[Kathryn]

Friend Kathyrn,


Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
before that let us settle to understand what and where *paradise* is.
The garden of eden that one lives in is HERE-NOW!; are we speaking of the same *paradise* or is it just an imaginary place where Gabriel, St. Peters are said to reside.
Mind [satan] has no limits!
Love & rgds

I believe that paradise is in the afterlife. And no, I don't think it's imaginary, and I don't think that it's filled with angels floating on clouds playing harps. I believe it is a dynamic, exciting, beautiful place.

 

[gnostic]

well then what kind of a god would god be if those who spent their lives worshiping that diety and living according to his rules were to have the same outcome/destination/reward as those who never worshiped him, those who mocked him and those that worshiped other gods?

Have you personally met a lot of people who belong to non-Abrahamic religions that worship other gods, who "mock" him?

The number of people I have actually met in my adult life, not one of them have said anything about Islam or that of your god disrespectfully or even in a mocking tone.

(It would have to be adult life, because there weren't any Muslim living in my neighborhood at that time.)

And none of my atheist and Buddhist cousins have anything bad to say about Muslims or your religion, let alone your god. They are respectful to all religions, they simply don't believe in your god.

Anyone not believing in your god, doesn't necessarily mean they go around mocking or insulting your god.

(As for ME. I am different kettle of fish.)

So I find your statement that people mocking your god to be either generalisation or exaggeration.

 

[Cordoba]

so let me ask you this.
if a non believer is capable of doing good for the sake of good, why then must god be needed for the believer to do good for the sake of god?

A believer does good to come closer to God, waitasec, and at the same time it is part of human virtue found both in believers and non-believers

 

[waitasec]

A believer does good to come closer to God, waitasec,

not to be disrespectful, but isn't that a self serving motive?

and at the same time it is part of human virtue found both in believers and non-believers

absolutely...

 

[YmirGF]

I believe it is a dynamic, exciting, beautiful place.

Some of us are already in "paradise". The fact is, the closer one gets to reality the more distant memories of "god" become. "God" eventually becomes irrelevant.

 

[Vendetta]

I find it problematic that God favors the believers even though non-believers are capable of doing the same positive things.

 

[waitasec]

I find it problematic that God favors the believers even though non-believers are capable of doing the same positive things.

:cigar:

 

[Bismillah]

so in other words, if you didn't do it for allah...you wouldn't have a desire to do it?

Odd, I plainly stated that man innately can recognize good and evil.

I do it because it is right. How do I know it is right? Because it is commended and mandatory in the Qur'an.

looks like an ulterior motive...a selfish motive no less...

It would be if there was an immediate and guaranteed benefit. It is done because of recognize kinship between man and acting upon the troubles of the other. This brotherhood is established for the sake of Allah.

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

if you are a person who values integrity and self respect this would ring true.

There are many self-respecting individuals with a sense of decency who do are not charitable.

and there is no need to believe in god or allah in order to appreciate that reward...

Obviously, no one is arguing against that. Rather believe in Allah requires charity which is why it is superior.

nope. doing good for the sake of good is the reward for those who value integrity and self respect...

You understand that the word "good" is synonymous with Allah? That the path set out and mandated is pure and done for the sake of "good". It is a trivial word that can hardly describe the purity of the Islamic paradigm, but essentially what you are stating is no different from that Hadith in implication.

so you actually believe one has to be forced in order to do good deeds?

No, I believe that to be charitable one has to have a correct mindset which includes qualities such as empathy and dispels the ideals of materialism. Islam brings forth this mindset and requires charity. This is why it is superior, it is the antithesis of antipathy.

this maybe true for you but it's not true for everyone

Refrain from the subtle personal attacks please.

doesn't make it true either

No, it does. It is the logical implication. Islam is the ideal mindset for saddaqa or charity. As such a Muslim is always charitable, whereas an atheist may be or may not be. Thus Islam is superior.

 

[Bismillah]

I find it problematic that God favors the believers even though non-believers are capable of doing the same positive things.

Vendetta, I think there might be some religious overlap. A man is not judged according to his simple label but to his actions.

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do. [Qur'an 5:8]

 

[waitasec]

Odd, I plainly stated that man innately can recognize good and evil.

didn't you say...?

In Islam, as the links and verses and hadiths I quoted forcibly demonstrated, the action is done purely for the sake of Allah.

so, if you didn't do it for allah...you wouldn't have a desire to do it?

I do it because it is right. How do I know it is right? Because it is commended and mandatory in the Qur'an.

funny, i don't need a book telling me what is right...

It would be if there was an immediate and guaranteed benefit. It is done because of recognize kinship between man and acting upon the troubles of the other. This brotherhood is established for the sake of Allah.

ok, so what's the difference between that kinship and that of a fraternity a club or a sports team...?
again i find it interesting that you need to be told what to recognize as kinship...other than people are your kinship...no matter what race or color or gender...

There are many self-respecting individuals with a sense of decency who do are not charitable.

how would you know that unless you sit in judgment and therefore assume the intentions of others?

Obviously, no one is arguing against that. Rather believe in Allah requires charity which is why it is superior.

but you said...

We do not judge the merits of our actions, that would be presumptuous, arrogant, and unbecoming.

You understand that the word "good" is synonymous with Allah?

nice maneuver...
you understand that we being human means we are all the same?

No, I believe that to be charitable one has to have a correct mindset which includes qualities such as empathy and dispels the ideals of materialism. Islam brings forth this mindset and requires charity. This is why it is superior, it is the antithesis of antipathy.

again, i don't need a god, doctrine or religion to inform me was is charitable and or what good deeds are and i don't seem to think my good deeds are any better than anyone else's. however, it seems your religious piety has given your sense of obligation to be charitable an undue sense of self importance thinking that it is superior...
let me remind you of your own words friend

We do not judge the merits of our actions, that would be presumptuous, arrogant, and unbecoming.

Refrain from the subtle personal attacks please.

lets be clear here...i didn't
this is the context in which you accuse me of personal attacks...

I am stating that to be charitable requires a certain mindset and Islam forces upon man that mindset as an obligation and that is why it will always triumph over any so called superiority of secular humanitarianism.

so you actually believe one has to be forced in order to do good deeds?
this maybe true for you but it's not true for everyone

No, it does. It is the logical implication. Islam is the ideal mindset for saddaqa or charity. As such a Muslim is always charitable, whereas an atheist may be or may not be. Thus Islam is superior.

maybe in your islamic world...but nevertheless...no one is better than anyone else in our world, wouldn't you agree?

 

[waitasec]

Vendetta, I think there might be some religious overlap. A man is not judged according to his simple label but to his actions.

O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do. [Qur'an 5:8]

Obviously, no one is arguing against that. Rather believe in Allah requires charity which is why it is superior.

so, only charity comes from belief in allah and a person is judged according to their deeds...
so are you saying that only those that believe in allah are capable of charity and they are the ones being judged for it...?

if that IS what you're saying...
you are mistaken.