is the islamic faith based on the intention of going to paradise ...

[waitasec]

An atheist does "something for the sake of good" yeah that's complete rubbish. Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action.

wait a second...
are you saying atheists do not do good for the sake of goodness?

An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no reason why it is "for the sake of good".

wow just wow...
how can you stand there and believe what you are saying...

i already said that muslims do good for the sake of goodness...you seem to do it for the sake of divine favor..because you are obliged to...

Then you attempt to manipulate that into stating that I think atheists are inherently worthless

let me repeat what you just said...

An atheist does "something for the sake of good" yeah that's complete rubbish. Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action.

there is no reason why it is "for the sake of good".

yeah that is what you meant isn't it...

Clearly not, I mean how many points do I have to repeat a single point until it sinks in? Give me an honest answer 20 more times a 100?

The idea of compatibility hedges on the mindset of an individual, Islam is that mindset.

no dear, humanity...people are people that is the mindset...you just use your good deeds as a justification to validate islamic ideals...

 

[Penumbra]

MOD Advisory

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[Bismillah]

are you saying atheists do not do good for the sake of goodness?

I plainly stated that an atheist can do a deed "for the sake of goodness", however that is not a solid hard solid fact. There can be many motivations for committing oneself to an action

An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no reason why it is "for the sake of good".

Precisely because

Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action.

yeah that is what you meant isn't it...

You are clearly not understanding my perfectly clear statements statements I never once stated that "atheists are worthless", quite the opposite in fact for these last couple of pages.

people are people that is the mindset

LOL. You don't know what you are talking about then. You ever apply for college? You see the lies and reasons for why people engage in "community service". Clearly there are many reasons "for the sake of goodness" is hardly ever true.

you just use your good deeds as a justification to validate islamic ideals

Like I said I do good for the sake of "good", I understand how you cannot understand how a religious person can do that. It is not me being bigoted in fact, it is quite plainly you and your disastrous attempts to understand very simple concepts that go against that grain of thought.

 

[waitasec]

I plainly stated that an atheist can do a deed "for the sake of goodness", however that is not a solid hard solid fact. There can be many motivations for committing oneself to an action Precisely because

who is arguing that? i NEVER claimed that atheist are the only only ones who do good for the sake of goodness...show me where i said that...

You are clearly not understanding my perfectly clear statements statements I never once stated that "atheists are worthless", quite the opposite in fact for these last couple of pages.

well, do you remember calling your obligation to do good as superior?
granted, i was only trying to make a point, in that you think you are superior...which is really saying those who do good deeds for other reasons are inferior...right?

LOL. You don't know what you are talking about then. You ever apply for college? You see the lies and reasons for why people engage in "community service". Clearly there are many reasons "for the sake of goodness" is hardly ever true.

assume much? don't tell me you don't judge other peoples motives...
i don't, i'm only arguing with YOU not islam...it's your interpretation of why YOU do good works...
my stance is, there is no way for anyone to know why someone would do good deeds...this entire thread came out of a discourse in which someone said...good works for the sake of good works is worthless in the eyes of allah...because good works should be done in the name of allah...
which led me to ask, so do muslims do good work to get into paradise then?
how else is anyone to interpret that statement?

and i'm sorry but that seems rather odd. because, people are people...they do good works for many reasons...why would the islamic reason be any more superior than any other reason...

Like I said I do good for the sake of "good", I understand how you cannot understand how a religious person can do that. It is not me being bigoted in fact, it is quite plainly you and your disastrous attempts to understand very simple concepts that go against that grain of thought.

no it's a comment YOU made that lead me to believe that doing good deeds for the sake of goodness is inferior to doing good deeds for the sake of allah
why would you say

An atheist does "something for the sake of good" yeah that's complete rubbish

had you said..."only atheists do good for goodness sake yeah that's complete rubbish" i would have agreed...

 

[Bismillah]

who is arguing that?

yet an atheist has no ulterior motive to do good deeds simply because it's done for the sake of goodness...

As I said

An atheist may do something for the "sake of good" or for the sake of ostentation or for the sake of getting a college recommendation. There are a myriad of reasons WHY an atheist may do something, there is no reason why it is "for the sake of good".

Precisely because

Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action.

well, do you remember calling your obligation to do good as superior?

I stated that the action's merit depends on intention. As I later explained in Islam, the motivation for every action revolves around Niyat. That means that a Muslim must always "pause to straighten their intention" so that our actions are "for the sake of good". That does not hold true for an atheist simply because atheism is lack of beliefs not the presence of them. Secondly I stated

A man can tell right from wrong, the difference lies that a Muslim must always be righteous and that his actions are innately done "for the sake of good".

An atheist's act is not necessarily inferior, however there is no reason to prompt his actions to either be for the best of intentions or indeed to even be charitable. That is why Islam is superior.

assume much? don't tell me you don't judge other peoples motives...

No, I just repeat verbatim what my classmates tell me.

no it's a comment YOU made that lead me to believe that doing good deeds for the sake of goodness is inferior to doing good deeds for the sake of allah

My comment is logically true.

 

[waitasec]

As I said Precisely because I stated that the action's merit depends on intention. As I later explained in Islam, the motivation for every action revolves around Niyat. That means that a Muslim must always "pause to straighten their intention" so that our actions are "for the sake of good". That does not hold true for an atheist simply because atheism is lack of beliefs not the presence of them. Secondly I stated

An atheist's act is not necessarily inferior, however there is no reason to prompt his actions to either be for the best of intentions or indeed to even be charitable. That is why Islam is superior.

No, I just repeat verbatim what my classmates tell me.

My comment is logically true.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/115784-god-watching-hmmmm.html

 

[waitasec]

Originally Posted by Bismillah
Atheism is a lack of beliefs, meaning that there is no ideology that actually emphasizes the reasons behind an action.

now that is complete rubbish

atheists are people, right?...people get their sense of decency from the ideology from the value they have in integrity and self respect...

 

[waitasec]

and furthermore...lack of belief in god doesn't mean lack of belief in value of morality...

 

[Bismillah]

now that is complete rubbish

Really? Atheism is by definition a lack of belief. It is a tenant in Islam that

a Muslim must always "pause to straighten their intention" so that our actions are "for the sake of good".

So if an businessman wants to take a certain course of action there is simply no dogma commanding him to enjoin in one action and not the other. He may act out of kindness and he might act out of materialistic greed.

lack of belief in god doesn't mean lack of belief in value of morality

I have addressed this precise issue, among the other repeating facade numerous times.

"The Qur'an states

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know the difference between good and evil.

There is no reason why man cannot have a sense of morality without religion, he just doesn't have any driving force to act on it.

 

[gnostic]

so when Allah says spend it (ie help those in need with what i have in exces) then that is what i do because ultimately a muslim does not see himself as owning anything in this life thus everything belongs to/comes from Allah, that is why we give for his sake. does that make any sense?

If this is true, then ultimately Muslims, like the Palestinian Muslims should not say that they owned the land of Israel or of city Jerusalem.

Those lands were promised to ancestors of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in a covenant, the same lands that Moses led the tribes of Jacob out of Egypt and brought in by Joshua's leadership. The lands that were promised to David's descendants.

The lands were lost because of God, but because they rebelled against Rome's authority. The Palestinians shouldn't complain, should the Jews come back to that lands almost 2000 years later.

 

[waitasec]

Really? Atheism is by definition a lack of belief.

and how do you equate lack of belief with lack of ideology?

There is no reason why man cannot have a sense of morality without religion, he just doesn't have any driving force to act on it.

but how do you reconcile that with the fact that they do...?

do you really think atheists can tell the difference between right and wrong but have no driving force to do the right thing...? :thud:
really? i must say that is just like me saying as fact that the only reason muslims do good deeds is to go to paradise...

 

[Bismillah]

and how do you equate lack of belief with lack of ideology?

There isn't any consistent ideology and that is the point.

So if an businessman wants to take a certain course of action there is simply no dogma commanding him to enjoin in one action and not the other. He may act out of kindness and he might act out of materialistic greed.

but how do you reconcile that with the fact that they do...?

Not every time.

do you really think atheists can tell the difference between right and wrong but have no driving force to do the right thing...?

So if an businessman wants to take a certain course of action there is simply no dogma commanding him to enjoin in one action and not the other. He may act out of kindness and he might act out of materialistic greed.

 

[waitasec]

There isn't any consistent ideology and that is the point.

there isn't any consistent ideology any where period friend...
just look at your own religion...isn't there sectarianism in islamic religion?
how about christianity...?

Not every time.

the same can be said with EVERYONE

 

[Bismillah]

just look at your own religion...isn't there sectarianism in islam?

We'll look at this one particular topic for now I think. There is most certainly a consistent ideology on charity, that is that it is a must. An atheist may or may not believe that.

the same can be said with EVERYONE

True, I am not saying that Muslims are infallible, rather when they do not enjoin in charity they are going against their own tenants, which is not true for an atheist for example who indulges in material vice. His actions [atheist] fall perfectly under his view of the world. That is why Islam is superior, it is the mindset of charity.

 

[waitasec]

There is most certainly a consistent ideology on charity,

wouldn't you say that is a consistent ideology with people in general, regardless if they are religious or not?

that is that it is a must.

so tell me why then...if an atheists chooses to do good for the sake of goodness, why do you consider it to be inferior to a good deed for the sake of allah because it is a must?

An atheist may or may not believe that.

true, atheists are not infallible . but that still doesn't answer the question for those who do good deeds for the sake of goodness

[/SIZE][/U][/I][/B] True, I am not saying that Muslims are infallible, rather when they do not enjoin in charity they are going against their own tenants,

i believe that would ring true for any person who values integrity and self respect

which is not true for an atheist for example who indulges in material vice.

but not all atheist are materialists either...

His actions [atheist] fall perfectly under his view of the world. That is why Islam is superior, it is the mindset of charity.

sorry still don't see it as superior...
those who do good feel good.

 

[Bismillah]

wouldn't you say that is a consistent ideology with people in general, regardless if they are religious or not?

No.

so tell me why then...if an atheists chooses to do good for the sake of goodness, why do you consider it to be inferior to a good deed for the sake of allah because it is a must?

I don't. However an Atheist has no compelling force to do something "for the sake of good" rather than "for the sake of money" nor does he have any compelling force to even act charitably if he lives by the rules of materialism and indulgence.

but that still doesn't answer the question for those who do good deeds for the sake of goodness

There is no force compelling to do them for the sake of goodness, thus you have some atheists that do and some that don't. Islam does have that force.

i believe that would ring true for any person who values integrity and self respect

That makes no sense. Self-respect has any bearing on whether someone acts or not. What does have a bearing is, as I've said

Charity is a particular mindset, Islam is that mindset or in other words Islam is charity.

An atheist may or may not reach that mindset, Islam is that mindset, hence it is superior.

 

[waitasec]

No.

what makes you think that?

I don't. However an Atheist has no compelling force to do something "for the sake of good" rather than "for the sake of money" nor does he have any compelling force to even act charitably if he lives by the rules of materialism and indulgence.

isn't that a blanket statement...there are those who do good for the sake of good...i know it's hard for you to believe that...but it's true.

There is no force compelling to do them for the sake of goodness,

sure there is...what do you think i've been meaning when i say there are those who value integrity and self respect?

thus you have some atheists that do and some that don't.

right..same can be said about everyone...

Islam does have that force.

but you said it yourself muslims are not infallible...

Self-respect has any bearing on whether someone acts or not.

what does integrity and self respect mean to you?

What does have a bearing is, as I've said An atheist may or may not reach that mindset, Islam is that mindset, hence it is superior.

no...islam is not that mindset...that is where you are mistaken.
that mindset is when we find value in our integrity and self respect.

 

[gnostic]

True, I am not saying that Muslims are infallible, rather when they do not enjoin in charity they are going against their own tenants, which is not true for an atheist for example who indulges in material vice. His actions [atheist] fall perfectly under his view of the world. That is why Islam is superior, it is the mindset of charity.

Are you truly saying that atheists or anyone else who are non-Muslims, cannot be charitable?

 

[Bismillah]

what makes you think that?

The presence of uncharitable people is a good starting point for one.

isn't that a blanket statement

No it's not

here are those who do good for the sake of good

Good God I have acknowledged this I am quite convinced more than twenty times.

The human soul and the way it has been adorned - with the inspiration of what is right for it and what is wrong - bears witness that whoever purifies it, shall succeed and whoever corrupts it, shall fail. (Al-Shams 91: 6 - 9)

Meaning we as humans have been given the intelligence to separate right from wrong. We know, inherently, the difference between good and evil.

what do you think i've been meaning when i say there are those who value integrity and self respect?

There is no specific reason why an Atheist will come to value "integrity" and "self-respect". I have already said "charitibility is a mindset" there is no reason that an Atheist will be default charitable as opposed to my statement "Islam is that mindset or in other words Islam is charity".

same can be said about everyone

If an Atheist is not charitable, so what?? That is his outlook. If a Muslim is not charitable then he betrays his beliefs, he is acting against Islam. That is the point.

but you said it yourself muslims are not infallible

If a Muslim is not charitable he betrays his beliefs. If an Atheist is not charitable then he lives his beliefs.

islam is not that mindset

It clearly is, charity is infused throughout the religion.

Are you truly saying that atheists or anyone else who are non-Muslims, cannot be charitable?

Go back a couple pages when waitasec made that accusation.

 

[waitasec]

The presence of uncharitable people is a good starting point for one.

are you saying all muslims are infallible then...?

No it's not Good God I have acknowledged this I am quite convinced more than twenty times.

i think the reason why you have to explain it so much is because you haven't committed to the idea and YOU flip flop it around making it extremely difficult to understand what you mean.

There is no specific reason why an Atheist will come to value "integrity" and "self-respect". I have already said "charitibility is a mindset" there is no reason that an Atheist will be default charitable as opposed to my statement "Islam is that mindset or in other words Islam is charity".

you said islam IS that mind set...meaning it is exclusive to islam...which in fact is totally delusional.

If an Atheist is not charitable, so what?? That is his outlook.

whaaaaaat? no it's not. you really think atheists do not understand what regret is? please. lets talk about the "so what", is it really so what? what is integrity and self respect...i noticed you avoided the question...

If a Muslim is not charitable then he betrays his beliefs, he is acting against Islam. That is the point.

wow...really. why then are muslims countries in such a sad state...there are almost as many muslims as there are christians in the world why then are muslim countries still developing if islam is so charitable? there are a lot of rich muslims in the world too...

If a Muslim is not charitable he betrays his beliefs.

as would anyone else...you think that non muslims do not have this belief, that this is exclusively muslim?
hogwash

If an Atheist is not charitable then he lives his beliefs.

this is disgusting... you are not making a good case for islam.

It clearly is, charity is infused throughout the religion.

no you have it wrong friend... charity is infused in humanity...charity doesn't exclusively belong to islam...get over it already