Is the universe infinite or finite?

[oldbadger]

Your words: "Mankind always wants to believe in a finite end.......there won't be one."

Agreed.
It's all going to go on and on.
I know we aren't discussing religion here but the Islamic and Baha'i calls 'God is Great' rings true.

 

[firedragon]

Agreed.
It's all going to go on and on.
I know we aren't discussing religion here but the Islamic and Baha'i calls 'God is Great' rings true.

I am asking for evidence for your statement, "Mankind always wants to believe in a finite end.......there won't be one."

 

[oldbadger]

I am asking for evidence for your statement, "Mankind always wants to believe in a finite end.......there won't be one."

History...... how much history have you studied?

One example: Once upon a time, the Earth was all that there was, not even within a solar system.

 

[firedragon]

History...... how much history have you studied?

One example: Once upon a time, the Earth was all that there was, not even within a solar system.

You are missing your own point. Your last statement "there won't be one".

Any evidence for that?

 

[oldbadger]

You are missing your own point. Your last statement "there won't be one".

Any evidence for that?

Look..... You ask one question, get an answer, then JP over to some other question.

I answered your question, which you didn't even acknowledge, do now you wish to skip over to the next part of my claim.

The future cannot be proved, but by looking back on to the past we can draw our own guesses for the future.

What you need to prove to me is that my guess for the future is wrong.
Off you go........waiting.

 

[firedragon]

Look..... You ask one question, get an answer, then JP over to some other question.

Its the same question, same sentence. You picked the beginning of your own sentence to give the answer, I am showing the end of your own sentence to give context to your own sentence.

But never mind. Answers cannot be expected. Ciao.

 

[gnostic]

My point was and is that multi universe is very very possible.... even probable, and you playing some amateur science card to refute that possibility ain't working on me.

As I have already pointed out, science is only that that are falsifiable and tested, which Multiverse isn’t.

The only reasons that Multiverse has survived so long, it is theoretically possible and feasible...”theoretical” as in mathematical and philosophical senses...BUT “empirically” IMPROBABLE.

You can believe what you like, but I preferred to not accept anything to be true, when something like Multiverse isn’t empirically tested.

There are other theoretical models that I haven’t accepted because they haven’t been tested, and seemed untestable, like all variations of String Theory, including M-theory; Superstring Theory; Cyclical Universe model, and so on.

At least?
Such arrogance.
If you are a pro astronomer or involved in universe research in any way, please do tell us.

Arrogance?

What I think is arrogance, is that you are trying to force me to accept proposed model, untestable and untested.

I am within my rights, to exercise my skepticism on untested model like Multiverse. To me, Multiverse is more like an unsubstantiated and fanciful philosophy, not a tested scientific theory.

And, no I am not astronomer, but who in this forum is? You?

 

[firedragon]

As I have already pointed out, science is only that that are falsifiable and tested, which Multiverse isn’t.

But most of this is philosophy of science. That cannot be falsified. But some reject philosophy. One atheist even called philosophy "hypocrisy" and the philosophers "hypocrites". Well, there are people like that in this world.

Well. Thats that.

 

[oldbadger]

Its the same question, same sentence. You picked the beginning of your own sentence to give the answer, I am showing the end of your own sentence to give context to your own sentence

Oh really...
You picked half, then jumped to the other half, now want it all.

Which part of 'I am confident that space goes on and on, universe after universe' can't you grasp.???

Do you really think I care tuppence about proving anything to you?

See ya later......

But never mind. Answers cannot be expected. Ciao.

So in demanding them you were just trolling, maybe?

 

[firedragon]

You picked half, then jumped to the other half, now want it all.

No. I picked the whole sentence, YOU PICKED HALF.

Anything else?

 

[firedragon]

So in demanding them you were just trolling, maybe?

Some people have a habit of thinking others are just like them.

 

[oldbadger]

Some people have a habit of thinking others are just like them.

*ignore*

 

[firedragon]

*ignore*

You made my day. Thanks.

 

[SA Huguenot]

This question comes out of curiosity to find the arguments of those who make both sides of the word "or". If this is a false dichotomy I would like to hear the other options to this as well.

A few atheists have been making a similar argument to "the universe is infinite" in this very forum when discussing the Kalam Cosmological Argument, which is the reason for this thought experiment if I may put it that way. Now before anyone derails the thread saying "this is a strawman" let me make it clear that this is not an atheists position in general, but a few do make this positive claim, thus what are the philosophical or/and scientific reasonings for this?

It is an easy answer.
If there was a Big Bang, a singularity spread out matter from one single point, such as particles being flung from a spinning disk.
It would mean that this matter will spread out into space in a spherical model, and will continue to travel away from its central point.
This means that no matter when, even billions of years from now, that sphere will only grow larger and less dense.

This is the Big Bang model contained within the laws of ennergy conservation.
If not the above, which renders a finite universe, then matter appeared throughout the universe, everywhere at once, and the Big Bang model never happened.
In that case, we will not have any clues whether the universe has a boundry, and it might be infinite, and finite.

In any case, I believe the universe to be finite due to the observable nature demonstrates that everything we know so far, has boundries.

 

[firedragon]

It is an easy answer.
If there was a Big Bang, a singularity spread out matter from one single point, such as particles being flung from a spinning disk.
It would mean that this matter will spread out into space in a spherical model, and will continue to travel away from its central point.
This means that no matter when, even billions of years from now, that sphere will only grow larger and less dense.

This is the Big Bang model contained within the laws of ennergy conservation.
If not the above, which renders a finite universe, then matter appeared throughout the universe, everywhere at once, and the Big Bang model never happened.
In that case, we will not have any clues whether the universe has a boundry, and it might be infinite, and finite.

In any case, I believe the universe to be finite due to the observable nature demonstrates that everything we know so far, has boundries.

Thanks a lot.

With your idea that everything we know so far has boundaries, how do you solve the flatness problem? What value do you place the critical density in?

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

If the universe is finite, what lies beyond the boundary?

Most likely, a "Multiverse"; a "plane" if you will in which exists multiple Universes much like our Universe is a plane in which exists multiple Galaxies and those Galaxies are a plane in which exists multiple Solar systems.

Just a thought ....

 

[firedragon]

Most likely, a "Multiverse"; a "plane" if you will in which exists multiple Universes much like our Universe is a plane in which exists multiple Galaxies and those Galaxies are a plane in which exists multiple Solar systems.

Just a thought ....

So is our Universe eternal or finite?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think the universe is both finite and infinite depending on how it's approached.

 

[firedragon]

I think the universe is both finite and infinite depending on how it's approached.

Can you explain please?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Can you explain please?

Well if it's finite that would suggest a boundary.

The problem is the boundary itself. Something like that would require a dimension. How big? How thick? What lays beyond a boundary?

I view a finite universe as being contained by boundaries, but the boundaries themselves cannot be finite for the same reasons.