Is the Universe perfect or imperfect?

[Sha'irullah]

Unless of course God designed it this way on purpose...

My point exactly

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Unless of course God designed it this way on purpose...

Well, then clearly this implies a defect in his intentions.

 

[Sculelos]

My point exactly

In my opinion God made the World defective on purpose to carry out his plan that only he knows the full extent of. We as humans can only speculate and learn about it through the evidence he's left us and make the best choices here and now that we possibly can.

Well, then clearly this implies a defect in his intentions.

I think it can be summed up in this "God way's are not our ways, God's thoughts are not our thoughts."

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I think it can be summed up in this "God way's are not our ways, God's thoughts are not our thoughts."

That's touching. Unfortunately, you can't have your cake and eat it as well- and if our judgments about evil or defect in God's intentions are unreliable, seeing as human judgment is deficient with respect to God, then our judgment that the world suggests evidence of design by God is unreliable as well.

Pick your poison.

 

[Sha'irullah]

In my opinion God made the World defective on purpose to carry out his plan that only he knows the full extent of. We as humans can only speculate and learn about it through the evidence he's left us and make the best choices here and now that we possibly can.



I think it can be summed up in this "God way's are not our ways, God's thoughts are not our thoughts."

How do you know the world is defective? If god intended to create the world "defective" then it is perfect.

You are using a logical fallacy

 

[Enai de a lukal]

How do you know the world is defective? If god intended to create the world "defective" then it is perfect.

No, if God intended to create a defective world and then did so, the world would be... you guessed it, defective, ex hypothesi... Oops, eh?

You are using a logical fallacy

Oh reeeeeaally... Care to elaborate?

 

[Sculelos]

How do you know the world is defective? If god intended to create the world "defective" then it is perfect.

You are using a logical fallacy

It's a circular parade because we as humans have unreliable minds therefore we can not trust our own thoughts as proof of anything.

That is all I'm saying.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

It's a circular parade because we as humans have unreliable minds therefore we can not trust our own thoughts as proof of anything.

That is all I'm saying.

And what you're saying is self-defeating. See above.

 

[George-ananda]

I think this universe is a creation to great for us to put our puny judgement on.

Those who say the universe is imperfect and shows an imperfect creator, I wish to disagree with. It's the old 'Problem of Evil' argument.

Life is eternal but 'Problem of Evil' believers view things from the limited perspective that life begins at birth and ends at death.The natural illusion.

I try to look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

If all the dramas were removed, it would just be a static-state sameness. Nothing would propel us to question, advance and grow.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multidimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little spec and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.

 

[Sculelos]

What I'm saying is not self defeating. To understand God you must understand he is all things at all times including Good and Evil, perfection and in-perfection.

However as George-ananda said we only have the ability to learn about God from a very limited viewpoint so in our minds even though we have not seen God we form opinions on him by our own lust and emotions. I think the greatest point in life comes when you lose yourself and no longer have any selfish desire or ambition but rather want to do things for the help and encouragement and building of the weak, the unfortunate, the broken, the damaged, the lost and the needy.

All of us have chosen to take this path. All of us have fallen to our own selfish desires. All of us have said God is wrong about this or that. However God is very patient and will continually try to call us back to him, even though we sin he forgives us continually and try's to continually show us in the error of our ways so that we will lay our burdens at his feet and trust in him.

And it's suffice to say that God is not going to judge anyone but he gave the power and authority of the Judgement of Souls to Jesus Christ whom suffered the burdens of this life just as we did but was obedient to God even laying down his life to save that which was lost in search of the lost children.

I am a sinner and I am broken and I am weary and I am hurting, this is what makes us human, this is what makes us feel alive. This is what makes us know what love is.

 

[dgirl1986]

I do not see the earth and universe as being created for me, but I think of it as being perfect. I do not see how the nature of the universe itself cannot be perfect.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Life is eternal but 'Problem of Evil' believers view things from the limited perspective that life begins at birth and ends at death.The natural illusion.

That's sort of what life is...

I try to look at life from the perspective that life is eternal and we are in the process of learning that. We live as individuals for eons and not one life. We all return to godhead in the end. If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

The prospect of life continuing past death doesn't mitigate the suffering and evil in this life. This is a non-solution to the problem of evil.

I also use the analogy of creation as some grand expansive multidimensional artwork. And human problem of evil proponents view from their little spec and dimensional perspective of the artwork and try to judge the entire artwork. Their view is too limited to be meaningful.

You don't have to judge the entire work to pose the PoE. The existence of defect in even one tiny corner of a purportedly perfect work of art renders the piece, as a whole, defective as well... That's the kicker about perfection; if only 95% of it is perfect, then it isn't really perfect after all.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

What I'm saying is not self defeating. To understand God you must understand he is all things at all times including Good and Evil, perfection and in-perfection.

Well, but then you've just conceded that God is not omnibenevolent, or morally perfect.

However as George-ananda said we only have the ability to learn about God from a very limited viewpoint

The point is that, if what seems to us to be evil/defect/imperfection may not be when considered from a perspective not limited as ours is, then what seems to us to be evidence of God's design may not be when considered from a perspective not limited as ours is as well. This is why this sort of response is "self-defeating"; but you've conceded that God is not all-good, so this doesn't apply to you. (you have other problems, namely, why worship or obey the will of a God who is not all-good, but is morally flawed after the same manner than humans are)

 

[Sha'irullah]

What I'm saying is not self defeating. To understand God you must understand he is all things at all times including Good and Evil, perfection and in-perfection.

However as George-ananda said we only have the ability to learn about God from a very limited viewpoint so in our minds even though we have not seen God we form opinions on him by our own lust and emotions. I think the greatest point in life comes when you lose yourself and no longer have any selfish desire or ambition but rather want to do things for the help and encouragement and building of the weak, the unfortunate, the broken, the damaged, the lost and the needy.

All of us have chosen to take this path. All of us have fallen to our own selfish desires. All of us have said God is wrong about this or that. However God is very patient and will continually try to call us back to him, even though we sin he forgives us continually and try's to continually show us in the error of our ways so that we will lay our burdens at his feet and trust in him.

And it's suffice to say that God is not going to judge anyone but he gave the power and authority of the Judgement of Souls to Jesus Christ whom suffered the burdens of this life just as we did but was obedient to God even laying down his life to save that which was lost in search of the lost children.

I am a sinner and I am broken and I am weary and I am hurting, this is what makes us human, this is what makes us feel alive. This is what makes us know what love is.

What you are saying is etymologically wrong. No matter what you say.

If I make something and it does as I intend on it doing then it is "perfect".

You believe perfection and utopia are synonymous. This is not true. When something is does according to its purpose without flaw or error it is purpose. If you say God intended for the world to have hardships then it is perfect if that is its only purpose and is serving its function.


You are taking the self defeating Christian stance which is that the world is somehow "degrading" into a state of sin.


When you said god created the world imperfect it is an oxymoron since if he created the world to fulfill his intent then it is not imperfect.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

What you are saying is etymologically wrong. No matter what you say.

If I make something and it does as I intend on it doing then it is "perfect".

You believe perfection and utopia are synonymous. This is not true. When something is does according to its purpose without flaw or error it is purpose. If you say God intended for the world to have hardships then it is perfect if that is its only purpose and is serving its function.


You are taking the self defeating Christian stance which is that the world is somehow "degrading" into a state of sin.


When you said god created the world imperfect it is an oxymoron since if he created the world to fulfill his intent then it is not imperfect.

Except, that's not how the term "perfect" is functioning in this context; you're right that, ordinarily, perfection consists in the degree to which something achieves a particular goal, serves a particular function or purpose... But in this context "perfect" is being used in a morally evaluative sense, i.e. perfectly good.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Except, that's not how the term "perfect" is functioning in this context; you're right that, ordinarily, perfection consists in the degree to which something achieves a particular goal, serves a particular function or purpose... But in this context "perfect" is being used in a morally evaluative sense, i.e. perfectly good.

Considering the fact that I made the thread I never implied morality. Morals have no function in the universe and its existence.

If morality went away then we would just slaughter each others and not a single change in the universe would occur

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Considering the fact that I made the thread I never implied morality. Morals have no function in the universe and its existence.

If morality went away then we would just slaughter each others and not a single change in the universe would occur

You misunderstand me. When imperfection is attributed to the universe, what is implied is that it is morally deficient in some way, not that it fails to satisfy its intended purpose.

 

[George-ananda]

That's sort of what life is...

That's what life is to humans with limited perspective.

The prospect of life continuing past death doesn't mitigate the suffering and evil in this life. This is a non-solution to the problem of evil.

No, what I'm saying is a solution to the problem of evil. The PoE is based on western concepts such as eternal heaven/hell as continuation past death. Not the scenario I described in my post.

You don't have to judge the entire work to pose the PoE. The existence of defect in even one tiny corner of a purportedly perfect work of art renders the piece, as a whole, defective as well... That's the kicker about perfection; if only 95% of it is perfect, then it isn't really perfect after all.

OK, so where's any defect?

 

[Sculelos]

I'm a little bit confused with what perfect or imperfect means.

If your saying God created the Universe as intended I agree.

If you saying God created the Universe perfect and mankind f'ed it up then I disagree because I believe that God created the Devil to be exactly how he is in order to Test his creation so that we would bring pleasure to God.

To me anyone who say's or even imply's God doesn't know what he is doing nor anyone who say's God didn't intend for mankind to know Good and Evil and love, pain and suffering really just doesn't even have a clue about who God is or what ultimate plan he has.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

That's what life is to humans with limited perspective.

Um, ok. And? This doesn't change that that is what life is.

No, what I'm saying is a solution to the problem of evil. The PoE is based on western concepts such as eternal heaven/hell as continuation past death. Not the scenario I described in my post.

Saying it is a solution doesn't make it so. How does eternal life mitigate suffering and evil in this life? If you can't answer that, it is no solution.

OK, so where's any defect?

Congenital birth defects and developmental disorders, child molestation, rape, natural disasters... Have you ever heard the problem of evil before? Or like, watched the evening news? We don't have to look very far to see signs that our universe is far from morally perfect. We could literally sit here and name defects all day long.