Is the Universe perfect or imperfect?

[George-ananda]

Saying it is a solution doesn't make it so. How does eternal life mitigate suffering and evil in this life? If you can't answer that, it is no solution.

Congenital birth defects and developmental disorders, child molestation, rape, natural disasters... Have you ever heard the problem of evil before? Or like, watched the evening news? We don't have to look very far to see signs that our universe is far from morally perfect. We could literally sit here and name defects all day long.

I'm aware of the laundry list of short temporary evils. Let me quote from my original post:

If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I'm aware of the laundry list of short temporary evils. Let me quote from my original post:

If one could see one's life from separation from godhead through the eons to return to godhead then things make more sense. What we see as evil are very short temporary events in the grand scheme of things where each individual story ends in success; return to peace/bliss/awareness of godhead.

You still aren't saying how its a solution, so apparently I have to do your work for you. I gather that you're trying to say something like "the ends justify the means", i.e. that our "short temporary evils" (a fairly insensitive way to describe genocide, torture, and the like) are justified by the "success" or bliss we experience when we "return" to the godhead after death.

Now leaving aside that this is touchy feely spiritualist mumbo-jumbo, it still doesn't help with the PoE; an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity could achieve this same "success" or bliss at reunification WITHOUT these "short temporary evils"... If he cannot, then he is not omnipotennt, but if he can and chooses not to, he is not omnibenevolent.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I'm a little bit confused with what perfect or imperfect means.

If your saying God created the Universe as intended I agree.

If you saying God created the Universe perfect and mankind f'ed it up then I disagree because I believe that God created the Devil to be exactly how he is in order to Test his creation so that we would bring pleasure to God.

This is not the definition of perfect. Please point to me in a dictionary where perfect means how a product complies with the desire of another product. Perfection when used in the context of creation implies with the fulfillment of the creator and how well it fulfills the task.

To me anyone who say's or even imply's God doesn't know what he is doing nor anyone who say's God didn't intend for mankind to know Good and Evil and love, pain and suffering really just doesn't even have a clue about who God is or what ultimate plan he has.

You are going back on your word with this. You said the world is imperfect which stemmed from your lack of understanding of what perfect actually means objectively. But with this statement you imply God created the world as perfect and it would be hypocritical to say otherwise.

You seriously need to understand what perfect is. What you are using is a HEAVILY misguided usage of the word perfect.

If something does not fulfill what we want then it has no correlation to perfection. The perfection is found int he will of the creator not the created.

You are doing the opposite

 

[Sculelos]

Just listen to this song, it describes my feelings perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzerMoLMFE

 

[George-ananda]

You still aren't saying how its a solution, so apparently I have to do your work for you. I gather that you're trying to say something like "the ends justify the means", i.e. that our "short temporary evils" (a fairly insensitive way to describe genocide, torture, and the like) are justified by the "success" or bliss we experience when we "return" to the godhead after death.

Now leaving aside that this is touchy feely spiritualist mumbo-jumbo, it still doesn't help with the PoE; an omnipotent and omnibenevolent deity could achieve this same "success" or bliss at reunification WITHOUT these "short temporary evils"... If he cannot, then he is not omnipotennt, but if he can and chooses not to, he is not omnibenevolent.

Please describe your view of what a 'perfect' universe would look like. It would be impossible boredom forever. No thanks.

In eastern/Hindu thinking creation is this divine play/drama (Lila) of the Lord. In the greatest of even human plays there must be drama, individual suffering, successes, pain, joy, etc..

The Lord's play has all this and victory for all in the end.

Most people live at the level that this one life is all there is. An error of perspective (Maya) in Hindu thought

 

[Sha'irullah]

Just listen to this song, it describes my feelings perfectly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzerMoLMFE

:faint: Sorry but I cannot listen to Skillet. . I seriously cannot stand the band :yes:.

When they came out they were associated with being "metal" and all of the sudden all hard rock was "heavy metal" due to the inflation of supposed "nu-metal" thanks to bands like Slipknot and Korn. Skillet was the Christian response to this and to this very day I cannot stand them.

I use to see them a lot on TV in my Christian youth

 

[Sculelos]

:faint: Sorry but I cannot listen to Skillet. . I seriously cannot stand the band :yes:.

When they came out they were associated with being "metal" and all of the sudden all hard rock was "heavy metal" due to the inflation of supposed "nu-metal" thanks to bands like Slipknot and Korn. Skillet was the Christian response to this and to this very day I cannot stand them.

I use to see them a lot on TV in my Christian youth

Understandable, I liked them a lot when they were young but now that they are older it seems like they have gotten somewhat watered down.

I just found this song and I absolutely love it though I feel like it's Satan singing about deceiving the masses kinda sad but yet he can't help from continuing to lie and deceive and destroy people and admits he's in sort of a dazed state kinda sad about it all but enslaved to his own pride and sin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJM6tEEi6Ow

Edit: IF you haven't read it I also deeply suggest HP Lovecrafts The Call of Cthulhu
http://magnus.gustavsson.se/pdf/cthulhu.pdf

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Please describe your view of what a 'perfect' universe would look like. It would be impossible boredom forever. No thanks.

Maybe I can't describe it completely in positive terms, but I can certainly name some things it WOULDN'T include, such as the things I mentioned before (debilitating genetic disorders, torture, disease, rape, etc)... Since this strikes you as boring, does this mean you take enjoyment from people's suffering and pain (since these are precisely the sorts of things which would be missing in this impossibly boring universe...), so that a lack of suffering is boring to you? That's pretty horrifying, to be completely honest...

And as I said before, you haven't given a solution to the PoE in the sense that you've given an answer which allows us to keep all three omni attributes of God- you've taken the familiar way out, by giving up one of the omni attributes- you've conceded that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.

 

[Sculelos]

Maybe I can't describe it completely in positive terms, but I can certainly name some things it WOULDN'T include, such as the things I mentioned before (debilitating genetic disorders, torture, disease, rape, etc)... Since this strikes you as boring, does this mean you take enjoyment from people's suffering and pain (since these are precisely the sorts of things which would be missing in this impossibly boring universe...), so that a lack of suffering is boring to you? That's pretty horrifying, to be completely honest...

And as I said before, you haven't given a solution to the PoE in the sense that you've given an answer which allows us to keep all three omni attributes of God- you've taken the familiar way out, by giving up one of the omni attributes- you've conceded that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.

Your definition of Good is not right if you think God is not Good. God will forgive and resurrect those who strive to please him but God will also kill and destroy those who refuse to obey him.

The very definition of Evil is that Humans think that we know anything that God does not know, or we think we could be happier by disregarding the Words of our creator.

The Bible say's that God not only knew all our thoughts before we were ever created but he knew the imaginations of our thoughts as well.

Saying that I can't really say I understand God but I can say that he has the legal right to do whatever he pleases with anyone, anytime, anywhere.

I think he created this World so that mankind could really understand the depths of depravity and how it destroys everything it touches over time and thus teach mankind on new Earth how and why sin and death must have been defeated first before finite man could be merged with a infinite God.

It's very hard to comprehend, try to understand that.

 

[George-ananda]

Maybe I can't describe it completely in positive terms, but I can certainly name some things it WOULDN'T include, such as the things I mentioned before (debilitating genetic disorders, torture, disease, rape, etc)... Since this strikes you as boring, does this mean you take enjoyment from people's suffering and pain (since these are precisely the sorts of things which would be missing in this impossibly boring universe...), so that a lack of suffering is boring to you? That's pretty horrifying, to be completely honest...

You missed my point. In your idea of a 'perfect' universe nothing so evil as any disease, sickness or death should ever take place with an omnibenevolent God. Nobody could experience any temporary suffering or cruelty under God's watchful eye. So, the question you couldn't answer is 'what does a perfect universe look like?'.

And as I said before, you haven't given a solution to the PoE in the sense that you've given an answer which allows us to keep all three omni attributes of God- you've taken the familiar way out, by giving up one of the omni attributes- you've conceded that God is either not omnipotent or not omnibenevolent.

I conceded none of the omni-'s. I have said our perspective on the grandness of creation is so limited we can not judge. We see our one spec of a massive multidimensional creation and think we can critique the creator.

 

[Straw Dog]

I avoid the notion of 'perfection' for philosophical reasons. However, I might say that the universe is most excellent.

 

[YmirGF]

Nothing, not even "nothingness" is perfect. Get over it already.

 

[Willamena]

Nothing, not even "nothingness" is perfect. Get over it already.

Ah! That's perfect.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Your definition of Good is not right if you think God is not Good.

Didn't you already say that God is good AND evil? If God is at least partially evil, he cannot, by definition, be all good. Being all good excludes ANY evil.

God will forgive and resurrect those who strive to please him but God will also kill and destroy those who refuse to obey him.

So are you saying that those who suffer ipso facto have angered God, and thus are just getting what they deserved? So the 6 million Jews who died in the Holocaust were getting their just deserts?

It's very hard to comprehend, try to understand that.

No, it isn't especially hard to understand. It just looks completely false.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

You missed my point. In your idea of a 'perfect' universe nothing so evil as any disease, sickness or death should ever take place with an omnibenevolent God. Nobody could experience any temporary suffering or cruelty under God's watchful eye. So, the question you couldn't answer is 'what does a perfect universe look like?'.

Or you simply didn't have one. And I did answer your question, and you have included my answer in the same paragraph in which you claim I didn't give one! (ironic) Namely this-

In your idea of a 'perfect' universe nothing so evil as any disease, sickness or death should ever take place with an omnibenevolent God.

My idea of a perfect, or at least better, universe is one with little or no suffering, particularly gratuitous suffering.

I conceded none of the omni-'s. I have said our perspective on the grandness of creation is so limited we can not judge. We see our one spec of a massive multidimensional creation and think we can critique the creator.

Now you're just repeating yourself. We can judge our limited corner of the universe, and if even that tiny fraction of the whole contains defect, then so does the whole. We don't need to see the rest of it. 95% perfect is not perfect.

 

[George-ananda]

My idea of a perfect, or at least better, universe is one with little or no suffering, particularly gratuitous suffering.

In this 'perfect' universe do we and all our loved ones age, get sick and die? Does a limited number of us stay young and healthy forever and ever? My point is that you talk of this 'perfect' universe but there's no such thing that can be made sense of (except maybe the one we're in).

Now you're just repeating yourself. We can judge our limited corner of the universe, and if even that tiny fraction of the whole contains defect, then so does the whole. We don't need to see the rest of it. 95% perfect is not perfect.

I repeat myself because my point is not sinking in. It's like a jigsaw puzzle. What might look like an error on one piece may not be so when snapped into the bigger picture.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

In this 'perfect' universe do we and all our loved ones age, get sick and die? Does a limited number of us stay young and healthy forever and ever? My point is that you talk of this 'perfect' universe but there's no such thing that can be made sense of (except maybe the one we're in).

Seems perfectly sensible to me. Death is not accompanied by so much physical pain, or physical pain is more tolerable, gratuitous suffering like genetic disorders and mass murders are absent.

No problem here.

I repeat myself because my point is not sinking in. It's like a jigsaw puzzle. What might look like an error on one piece may not be so when snapped into the bigger picture.

Silly. I understand the point you're trying to make, what I'm trying to get you to understand is that it is not an adequate solution to the PoE. It doesn't matter what the rest of the puzzle looks like, or whether the rest of the puzzle somehow redeems the presence of evil in our tiny corner of it- if one postulates an ALL good and ALL powerful creator, then the existence of ANY suffering or evil constitutes a defect, regardless of what good is achieved in the end.

As I said before, a truly ALL powerful god can make an omelet without breaking any eggs.

 

[Looncall]

Your definition of Good is not right if you think God is not Good. God will forgive and resurrect those who strive to please him but God will also kill and destroy those who refuse to obey him.

The very definition of Evil is that Humans think that we know anything that God does not know, or we think we could be happier by disregarding the Words of our creator.

The Bible say's that God not only knew all our thoughts before we were ever created but he knew the imaginations of our thoughts as well.

Saying that I can't really say I understand God but I can say that he has the legal right to do whatever he pleases with anyone, anytime, anywhere.

I think he created this World so that mankind could really understand the depths of depravity and how it destroys everything it touches over time and thus teach mankind on new Earth how and why sin and death must have been defeated first before finite man could be merged with a infinite God.

It's very hard to comprehend, try to understand that.

This sort of thinking is contemptible. It advocates slavish acceptance of evils. How handy for those who oppress for their own benefit.

 

[captainbryce]

The Universe is imperfect.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics or, The Law of Entropy, dictates that energy/matter are in a constant state of decay, that is; the universe is "winding down", going from a state of order to a state of chaos and dis-organization.

Romans 8:20-21
20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

 

[YmirGF]

Romans 8:20-21
20 Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

Marketing brochures have such over the top rhetoric, don't they?