Is there an afterlife? / The ultimate goal for man

[9Westy9]

So if you don't agree with me how can right and wrong exist without an afterlife?
Do you believe that might makes right, or do you believe in something else?

subjectively objective morals
and I'd say that society defines what is right. 'Might' just enforces it

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

subjectively objective morals
and I'd say that society defines what is right. 'Might' just enforces it

So in this if society decides that 1+1 = 3 they are right because they say they are?

What do you think of this quote?

"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God." (2 Nephi 2:13

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God." (2 Nephi 2:13

Let's grant that morality is completely relative without god. Genocide isn't wrong. Wrong is just an opinion. subjective morality.

Now, how does God change that? If God states "this is morality" how does that "make it so" in an objective sense?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Let's grant that morality is completely relative without god. Genocide isn't wrong. Wrong is just an opinion. subjective morality.

Now, how does God change that? If God states "this is morality" how does that "make it so" in an objective sense?

So you don't believe in laws that attribute to happiness?

 

[McBell]

so if there is no afterlife? what is the point of this life? If there is no point, everyone should just go commit suicide because we are all doomed to a state of non existence anyway and it will make no difference. However, if we suddenly do that and afterwords find out that there was a big point to life that we just missed, I suppose it would be a really big oops moment wouldn't it.

Just because you cannot find any value in your life without fear of punishment and hope for reward, does not mean that no one can.

 

[McBell]

Let's grant that morality is completely relative without god. Genocide isn't wrong. Wrong is just an opinion. subjective morality.

Now, how does God change that? If God states "this is morality" how does that "make it so" in an objective sense?

Seems to me that it is only made so by the individuals who make it so for them selves.
Does not mean, contrary to what those individuals tell themselves, that it has been made so for everyone.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

So you don't believe in laws that attribute to happiness?

What does that have to do with anything? How does something become "right" because it is rewarded? If god determined that "right" meant murdering anyong with blond hair, and this was the only means by which one could enter heaven and obtain eternal bliss, then that somehow becomes right?

 

[McBell]

What does that have to do with anything? How does something become "right" because it is rewarded? If god determined that "right" meant murdering anyong with blond hair, and this was the only means by which one could enter heaven and obtain eternal bliss, then that somehow becomes right?

When one has nothing but what their favourite deity tells them, then yes, as a matter of fact, it does.

At least to them.

But then, they interject their own opinions by making the claim that their favourite deity would never do such a thing.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

What does that have to do with anything? How does something become "right" because it is rewarded? If god determined that "right" meant murdering anyong with blond hair, and this was the only means by which one could enter heaven and obtain eternal bliss, then that somehow becomes right?

Just answer my question, do you believe that there are laws, that when obeyed attribute to one's happiness?

for example, God commands us to be grateful.
Tell me, is it possible for you to feel happiness without grattitude?
Does not you + grattitude = happiness?

If there are laws out there that attribute to happiness, does that mean that when you break those laws there is sadness?

If this is so, is there such a thing as a good and a bad? The good being obedience to those laws and the bad being the disobedience to those laws?

So if there is a good and a bad does that mean there is a right and a wrong?
The overall question on top of that is did anyone in society make this up and decide what was right and what was wrong, or was that law there from the beginning and the people just stumble across it?

Can you argue with any of that?

 

[cablescavenger]

I personally believe there is and that this life has a point and isn't just about growing and growing and growing only one day to be toppled into non existence.

In my studies I have learned that Hindus believe that the ultimate goal for man to achieve is to break the cycle of reincarnation and cease to exist, while for a great many others it is the ultimate goal to live forever. What do you think the ultimate goal is for man?

That might be the ultimate goal for some, but for me I only ever wanted to play in a World Cup Final. Sadly I was rubbish at football.

 

[YmirGF]

Just answer my question, do you believe that there are laws, that when obeyed attribute to one's happiness?

Forgive my jumping in, but I certainly don't abide by any "happiness laws". The very idea strikes me as being somewhat farcical.

for example, God commands us to be grateful.

I do apologize in advance, but this statement made my brain implode. Why on Earth would a being, worthy of being called a "god" need to command its creations to be grateful? The mind reels...

Tell me, is it possible for you to feel happiness without grattitude?

Um, yes. I think you are confusing satisfaction with happiness.

Does not you + grattitude = happiness?

I suppose, but it is hardly the only thing that can generate happiness or feelings of euphoric well-being.

If there are laws out there that attribute to happiness, does that mean that when you break those laws there is sadness.

Well the unnatural guilt that is heaped on to the individual for consciously breaking some imaginary law may well be a bit of a downer, if one believed in such a silly idea. What is overlooked is how powerful ideas can be, whether or not they reflect reality at all.

If this is so is there such a thing as a good and a bad? The good being obedience to those laws and the bad being the disobedience to those laws?

So if there is a good and a bad does that mean there is a right and a wrong?
The overall question on top of that is did anyone in society make this up and decide what was right and what was wrong, or was that law there from the beginning and the people just stumble across it?

In general, most people are not especially deep thinkers and therefore these over-simplifications of experience seem to hold meaning. In reality, there are only experiences. It is the prejudices of our value judgements that colours them accordingly.

Can you argue with any of that?

I could be wrong, but I think I just did. The subject matter didn't really strike me as being particularly impressive example of thinking.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Can you argue with any of that?

How can I argue with questions? I asked a simple question: How does a god allow for or result in objective morality?

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Forgive my jumping in, but I certainly don't abide by any "happiness laws". The very idea strikes me as being somewhat farcical.

I do apologize in advance, but this statement made my brain implode. Why on Earth would a being, worthy of being called a "god" need to command its creations to be grateful? The mind reels...

Um, yes. I think you are confusing satisfaction with happiness.
I suppose, but it is hardly the only thing that can generate happiness or feelings of euphoric well-being.

Well the unnatural guilt that is heaped on to the individual for consciously breaking some imaginary law may well be a bit of a downer, if one believed in such a silly idea. What is overlooked is how powerful ideas can be, whether or not they reflect reality at all.

In general, most people are not especially deep thinkers and therefore these over-simplifications of experience seem to hold meaning. In reality, there are only experiences. It is the prejudices of our value judgements that colours them accordingly.


I could be wrong, but I think I just did. It doesn't really strike me as being particularly impressive thinking.

In answer to your questions and statements

-"I certainly don't abide by any "happiness laws"
Are you aware of any happiness laws? If you are not aware of any happiness laws how do you know if you are abiding by them or not?

-"Why on Earth would a being, worthy of being called a "god" need to command its creations to be grateful?"
Because He wants us to be happy.

-"I think you are confusing satisfaction with happiness."
Is there no gratitude in satisfaction? If you can name one thing out there that gives you satisfaction, I'm pretty certain I can name one thing that you would be grateful for that would be linked to that satisfaction.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

How can I argue with questions? I asked a simple question: How does a god allow for or result in objective morality?

well if you want me to I can answer those questions for you and you can try to argue with those answers.

If you answer me I will answer you.

 

[fishy]

-"Why on Earth would a being, worthy of being called a "god" need to command its creations to be grateful?"
Because He wants us to be happy.

:biglaugh:

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

:biglaugh:

Can you be happy without gratitude?

 

[fishy]

Can you be happy without gratitude?

No you see that is not the question. The question is: Will your god make those who are ungrateful sad? Oh and BTW yes I can.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

No you see that is not the question. The question is: Will your god make those who are ungrateful sad? Oh and BTW yes I can.

Is it God who makes them sad, or is it their own choices that make them sad. There is either the gift of agency, or there isn't. If God were to make us do everything, then there would be no agency.

Do you know any ungrateful happy people out there?

 

[Straw Dog]

Can you be happy without gratitude?

I think this a fine point. I believe that gratitude, compassion, and attention are some of the greatest contributors to happiness and spiritual enlightenment. I am grateful for the food that I eat, the air that I breathe, and the people that I love. This is all accomplished on my part without the need to postulate an afterlife or deity. I don't know definitively, but it seems redundant since I can seek my spiritual aims without excessive conceptions.

 

[fishy]

Is it God who makes them sad, or is it their own choices that make them sad. There is either the gift of agency, or there isn't. If God were to make us do everything, then there would be no agency.

Do you know any ungrateful happy people out there?

Stop changing your story, you claim that your god COMMANDS gratitude and if you don't he will refuse you happiness, he's terribly insecure isn't he. I am not the least bit grateful to your god, not one bit. But I am ecstatically happy, so either your god is lieing or these "apostles" you believe are lieing or your god doesn't exist. I'll let you choose, since you set the parameters.