Is there any place for blasphemy laws in the twenty first century?

[Spirit of Light]

A few things. First, what is blasphemous and offensive to some, is nothing to someone else. That is imposing your religious values upon those who don't share them. A drawing of Muhammad, is not considered blasphemy to a Christian, for instance. He's not considered sacred in their religion. You should not inject him into it, any more than they get to judge you for blaspheming the Son of God by claiming he wasn't crucified, for instance.

What you aren't seeing, is this is in fact force. You take a system of laws that are not part of another culture's laws or values, and try to force them upon them to comply with your own. That, by definition what an act of war is. It would be like China forcing its beliefs and values and systems of laws upon other sovereign countries. You don't get to do that. Americans get to call the leader of China, Winnie the Pooh if they like, while in China, you'd be killed for that "blasphemy".

One last thing, the fact that you feel that should be done, indicates a weakness of faith. Forced compliance, is about insecurity, that cannot allow diversity of views, beliefs, opinions, or even the making of offensive statements to exist. Peace at the end of a sword, is not Peace at all. It's slavery.

When did i say Jesus was not crucified? When i speak it is my words not for every muslim in this world. My words are only my words.
I do not say sharia law should be forced on to every country in this world.

What i do say. Is that since we human beings seem to be unable to not mock others because others see it different, it is good to have a law against blasphemy in the sence that there are nothing to learn in mocking other people.

 

[columbus]

It's a satirical magazine. Its entire purpose is to mock. And not just muslims. Everyone.

The difference between all those who have been mocked, is that only the muslims react so violently.

Also pretty weak as I recall.
It was on the verge of going out out of business.

If the Muslims hadn't made martyrs out of the staff the magazine would have just gone away.
Tom

 

[columbus]

What i do say. Is that since we human beings seem to be unable to not mock others because others see it different, it is good to have a law against blasphemy in the sence that there are nothing to learn in mocking other people.

I strongly oppose giving the government that kind of power.

I have no trouble with social pressure to stop people being mean. Burning Holy Books is stupid and mean. But I don't trust the government to decide what is OK and what is not concerning public discourse.
Tom

 

[Windwalker]

When did i say Jesus was not crucified?

I never said you said that. I asked is it okay for Christians to hold someone responsible under a "blasphemy law", for claiming that Jesus was never crucified. Most Muslims actually do not believe Jesus was crucified, in case you are unaware of that being new to it. "Another was made to look like him", and basically deceived everyone that he had died instead.

Now, to a Christian, that's blasphemous. How do you feel about making blasphemy laws apply to Muslims blaspheming the Christian faith? Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, as they say. You see, you don't get to say people should "not be allowed", to blaspheme the prophet of Islam. Should they also not be allowed to blaspheme the Christ of Christian beliefs? Should the Christian faith charge all of Islam under some international "blasphemy law", which you think is a good idea?

Maybe that isn't the way to deal with these things in this world?

When i speak it is my words not for every muslim in this world. My words are only my words.
I do not say sharia law should be forced on to every country in this world.

I'm only looking at your words and your thoughts behind it. You see the slippery slope you create when you support an idea that there should be "blasphemy laws" that outsiders to the religion should be held accountable to? That's very dangerous, and scarey. Would you be exempted from that if you violated the laws of some other religion in the world you were not a part of? Yikes.

What i do say. Is that since we human beings seem to be unable to not mock others because others see it different, it is good to have a law against blasphemy in the sence that there are nothing to learn in mocking other people.

Basically you're saying, no one should be allowed to be critical of anything they don't like publically. They need to be repressed and silenced by law for speaking their own minds. The world needs to be controlled from the top down, by very strict governing laws that all people must be forced to follow under threat of punishments.

Is this right?

 

[firedragon]

Basically you're saying, no one should be allowed to be critical of anything they don't like publically. They need to be repressed and silenced by law for speaking their own minds.

It seems like misrepresenting what someone says is the culture of this particular thread. Great.

 

[firedragon]

Also pretty weak as I recall.
It was on the verge of going out out of business.

If the Muslims hadn't made martyrs out of the staff the magazine would have just gone away.
Tom

Thats what people bank on.

 

[columbus]

Thats what people bank on.

Could you be more clear?
Tom

 

[firedragon]

Could you be more clear?
Tom

Any media institution be it one to one or one to many, print, radio, TV, Digital etc etc what ever it is, if you could get the reaction that Muslims sometimes provide thinking they are voicing against matters like Charlie Hebdo, that's a great achievement. Media professionals bank on this kind of reaction because it helps with ratings. All media companies do this and I dont blame them. Thats strategy.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I never said you said that. I asked is it okay for Christians to hold someone responsible under a "blasphemy law", for claiming that Jesus was never crucified. Most Muslims actually do not believe Jesus was crucified, in case you are unaware of that being new to it. "Another was made to look like him", and basically deceived everyone that he had died instead.

Now, to a Christian, that's blasphemous. How do you feel about making blasphemy laws apply to Muslims blaspheming the Christian faith? Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander, as they say. You see, you don't get to say people should "not be allowed", to blaspheme the prophet of Islam. Should they also not be allowed to blaspheme the Christ of Christian beliefs? Should the Christian faith charge all of Islam under some international "blasphemy law", which you think is a good idea?

Maybe that isn't the way to deal with these things in this world?


I'm only looking at your words and your thoughts behind it. You see the slippery slope you create when you support an idea that there should be "blasphemy laws" that outsiders to the religion should be held accountable to? That's very dangerous, and scarey. Would you be exempted from that if you violated the laws of some other religion in the world you were not a part of? Yikes.


Basically you're saying, no one should be allowed to be critical of anything they don't like publically. They need to be repressed and silenced by law for speaking their own minds. The world needs to be controlled from the top down, by very strict governing laws that all people must be forced to follow under threat of punishments.

Is this right?

My view is that we all should respect our differences in the religions. If Christianity teach one thing and Islam something different, that is ok to me. I dont speak bad about other religions anyway.
I did in the past and found it to be wrong of me to do.

 

[Windwalker]

My view is that we all should respect our differences in the religions.

That's a nobel desire. But you are saying it should be a law that people are held accountable to. Right? That's not the same thing as desiring mutual respect. Not at all. Laws are about citing and charging individuals for infractions. You could arrest someone for violating them, and punish them.

Do you believe that's what we should do in the world today? Make laws that punish people for offending the beliefs of another religion? Yes, or no?

 

[firedragon]

My view is that we all should respect our differences in the religions. If Christianity teach one thing and Islam something different, that is ok to me. I dont speak bad about other religions anyway.
I did in the past and found it to be wrong of me to do.

The problem with that is brother that you start with a law on blasphemy people in the country get influenced by that law. This is quite common around the world. I perfectly understand you and agree with you. The issue is, implementing a law against any kind of free speech, even if its a hypocritical insult that should definitely be avoided, this implementation of law affects the psychology of the people in that country. They become a little arrogant and they tend to take the law into their hands sometimes. This habit goes through their culture after that. That is why no matter how dirty we think some blasphemy is against any religion for any reason, the implementation of a law seems to be a bad approach.

Saying that, I must stress that there are many Muslim countries with blasphemy laws. What people dont talk about is that this blasphemy law is generally general to all religions. For example in one country there was a play some Indian people acted in and there were some insulting elements to Christianity. Blasphemy. And of course action was taken against them upon investigation.

This is common law in many Muslim countries with Shariah. But, very very rarely would you see people talking about it. Strange isn't it?

Well. Thats that.

 

[Windwalker]

It seems like misrepresenting what someone says is the culture of this particular thread. Great.

What are you talking about? What I'm hearing is that there should be laws that prohibit people from saying things that offend the beliefs of someone in other religions. I'm not sure what you think I'm saying here, or that I'm mishearing things.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's a nobel desire. But you are saying it should be a law that people are held accountable to. Right? That's not the same thing as desiring mutual respect. Not at all. Laws are about citing and charging individuals for infractions. You could arrest someone for violating them, and punish them.

Do you believe that's what we should do in the world today? Make laws that punish people for offending the beliefs of another religion? Yes, or no?

I believe there should not be any reason to offend other peoples faith or belief.
I dont speak of a law that harm others, but a law saying that offending other peoples faith or religion should not be done. Then it is up to us as human beings to have moral high enough to not on purpose offend other people.
I dont speak of jail time or similar punishment

 

[firedragon]

Do you believe that's what we should do in the world today? Make laws that punish people for offending the beliefs of another religion?

May I ask you why you generalise this to "offending the beliefs of another religion"? Lets say someone makes a dirty image of someones God or the Buddha, is that "offending the beliefs of another religion"?

Why dont you call a spade a spade and be specific rather than using strange words and strange allusions to what the topic is? The topic is "Blasphemy". You are trying to turn it into "offending the beliefs of another religion". They are two very different things. Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

What are you talking about? What I'm hearing is that there should be laws that prohibit people from saying things that offend the beliefs of someone in other religions. I'm not sure what you think I'm saying here, or that I'm mishearing things.

Your statement "Basically you're saying, no one should be allowed to be critical of anything they don't like publically. They need to be repressed and silenced by law for speaking their own minds." is misrepresenting what was discussed mate. You are trying to turn this discussion of blasphemy into many other things. Be specific. Dont represent what people say.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The problem with that is brother that you start with a law on blasphemy people in the country get influenced by that law. This is quite common around the world. I perfectly understand you and agree with you. The issue is, implementing a law against any kind of free speech, even if its a hypocritical insult that should definitely be avoided, this implementation of law affects the psychology of the people in that country. They become a little arrogant and they tend to take the law into their hands sometimes. This habit goes through their culture after that. That is why no matter how dirty we think some blasphemy is against any religion for any reason, the implementation of a law seems to be a bad approach.

Saying that, I must stress that there are many Muslim countries with blasphemy laws. What people dont talk about is that this blasphemy law is generally general to all religions. For example in one country there was a play some Indian people acted in and there were some insulting elements to Christianity. Blasphemy. And of course action was taken against them upon investigation.

This is common law in many Muslim countries with Shariah. But, very very rarely would you see people talking about it. Strange isn't it?

Well. Thats that.

I know my thoughts can never satisfy everyone
I think my point is, i can not understand why someone would offend an other persons religioues belief. Religioues beis a personal held belief.

 

[Windwalker]

May I ask you why you generalise this to "offending the beliefs of another religion"? Lets say someone makes a dirty image of someones God or the Buddha, is that "offending the beliefs of another religion"?

Why dont you call a spade a spade and be specific rather than using strange words and strange allusions to what the topic is? The topic is "Blasphemy". You are trying to turn it into "offending the beliefs of another religion". They are two very different things. Hope you understand.

Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder. In our country, you had Christians calling the Scorsese film, The Last Temptation of Christ, blasphemous, while him himself a devout Catholic considered it an expression of his faith. You can find any group calling something anyone else does that they find offensive as a "blasphemer". "Offending" is exactly the right word. They term that offense "blasphemy" because it really, really offends them.

Here's a good example. **** Christ. **** Christ - Wikipedia. It was a photo of a plastic crucifix in a jar of the artist's urine. Here's what the article says:

The work generated a large amount of controversy based on assertions that it was blasphemous. Serrano himself said of the controversy: "I had no idea **** Christ would get the attention it did, since I meant neither blasphemy nor offense by it. I've been a Catholic all my life, so I am a follower of Christ."​

Now, I'm sure the "Blasphemy Law" folks would love to have burned him at the stake for this. That was their judgement of the guys work. He should be stoned to death, or something or other. But here's the problem with that. Another Catholic person, a nun actually, saw it as not blasphemous at all! From the article:

Sister Wendy Beckett, an art critic and Catholic nun, stated in a television interview with Bill Moyers that she regarded the work as not blasphemous but a statement on "this is what we are doing to Christ."[19]
​

I would agree with that assessment. It's not blasphemous at all. It's a statement meant to jar people to look at what they are doing with their own religion.

So, maybe the better approach is to let people say what they will. Let it offend who if offends. Let the offended call it blasphemy. Let the un-offended say it's not. Let the discussion begin. That's what freedom speech is.

 

[firedragon]

I know my thoughts can never satisfy everyone
I think my point is, i van not understand why someone would offend an other persons religioues belief. Religioues beis a personal held belief.

I understand your question perfectly. Brother. Understand this very clearly. The only reason one educated, mature, progressive person offends another persons religious belief is for personal benefit of fame and money. Thats it.

There are scholars of religions who sometimes may offend us with criticism. When I say criticism I dont mean "saying bad things about someones religion". I mean technical, scientific criticism with scholarly analysis. This is a huge field of study and trust me on this, some of these scholars spend 10 to 11 years doing a Phd. Do you know brother that in Islamic studies, to do a Mufti course you have at least seven years of full time study? And you know what? Most of these studies are "Criticism". Just that since its done in Arabic you wouldn't call it criticism by name. This is Usul. Criticism is called "Science" in Islam. So lets say one of these educated people makes a criticism on religious text or a religious belief, this is not blasphemy though some people like children get so affected and claim every damn thing is blasphemy. I hope you understand what I am saying. This type of criticism by a scholar also can offend people. That is the childishness of people and is not the fault of the scholar.

But sometimes there are people doing actual blasphemy. I would say that there was a Muslim guy somewhere who made a video of breaking a small statue of mother Mary. Thats blasphemy. Thats a sacrilegious act. This is not good. So this is what you are speaking about, and I agree that even I dont really understand this kind of mentality.

But this guy Im speaking about is a stupid, dumb man somewhere who didnt have anything better to do. But there are some people brother who make money off insulting religions. Its an industry by itself. Its the easiest way to fame and money. Insult a religion and you will become a star. And at this moment, these times, the easiest passage is to insult Islam. This is why educated people do this. For the money.

Yet, people should not be so sensitive. Their faith should be so solid that they shouldn't give damn about any of these things. None of this affects God. Zilch. The prophet is dead. They are far beyond our realm to be affected by these kind of silly things. It is us who are acting like little children getting affected with no control. Its absurd. I understand that people should be doing these nasty things, but it is up to the believer to have such strong faith that this should never affect them. Laugh it off. Take it as satire. Thats it.

Peace.

 

[firedragon]

Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder.

Not Blasphemy laws. They have specific definitions.

Also, since you say blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder, you have interpreted someone else's mind through the lens of yours. So if you want to know what someone you speak to thinks is "blasphemy" just ask. Dont make assumptions and put words into their minds.

Cheers.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I understand your question perfectly. Brother. Understand this very clearly. The only reason one educated, mature, progressive person offends another persons religious belief is for personal benefit of fame and money. Thats it.

There are scholars of religions who sometimes may offend us with criticism. When I say criticism I dont mean "saying bad things about someones religion". I mean technical, scientific criticism with scholarly analysis. This is a huge field of study and trust me on this, some of these scholars spend 10 to 11 years doing a Phd. Do you know brother that in Islamic studies, to do a Mufti course you have at least seven years of full time study? And you know what? Most of these studies are "Criticism". Just that since its done in Arabic you wouldn't call it criticism by name. This is Usul. Criticism is called "Science" in Islam. So lets say one of these educated people makes a criticism on religious text or a religious belief, this is not blasphemy though some people like children get so affected and claim every damn thing is blasphemy. I hope you understand what I am saying. This type of criticism by a scholar also can offend people. That is the childishness of people and is not the fault of the scholar.

But sometimes there are people doing actual blasphemy. I would say that there was a Muslim guy somewhere who made a video of breaking a small statue of mother Mary. Thats blasphemy. Thats a sacrilegious act. This is not good. So this is what you are speaking about, and I agree that even I dont really understand this kind of mentality.

But this guy Im speaking about is a stupid, dumb man somewhere who didnt have anything better to do. But there are some people brother who make money off insulting religions. Its an industry by itself. Its the easiest way to fame and money. Insult a religion and you will become a star. And at this moment, these times, the easiest passage is to insult Islam. This is why educated people do this. For the money.

Yet, people should not be so sensitive. Their faith should be so solid that they shouldn't give damn about any of these things. None of this affects God. Zilch. The prophet is dead. They are far beyond our realm to be affected by these kind of silly things. It is us who are acting like little children getting affected with no control. Its absurd. I understand that people should be doing these nasty things, but it is up to the believer to have such strong faith that this should never affect them. Laugh it off. Take it as satire. Thats it.

Peace.

Fully agree with you on this brother