Is there any place for blasphemy laws in the twenty first century?

[Rival]

I have never been to university so i can not answer your question. Sorry

All I'm saying is that Islamic blasphemy laws never apply to non-Muslims so they have the right to draw and say whatever they like. Muslims have a right to be angry, but not to tell the non-Muslims to stop.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know, but i want them to say it, i want them to say its because they want to mock muslims. But i can not force them to say it.

It's a satirical magazine. Its entire purpose is to mock. And not just muslims. Everyone.

The difference between all those who have been mocked, is that only the muslims react so violently.

 

[firedragon]

I didn't mean literally torn apart. I mean torn apart by critics.

of course. But you are still absolutely wrong.

Where are Muslim Universities teaching that the Qur'an is not free from error or that it's written by many people? Where are they teaching these things? Where are they saying that Muhammad never existed and so couldn't have been given the Qur'an? Where are they teaching that there may be missing surahs? That it's just classical-era myths rehashed?

What do you mean free from errors? Are you repeating something you learned off the internet from a website or a YouTube video critiquing the Quran which is directly against your own statement that it rarely happens? Tell me. In Jewish studies of the Torah or whatever study, do they teach Moses never existed? So do you understand how bias your question "Where are they saying that Muhammad never existed and so couldn't have been given the Qur'an" is?

First thing is go to a university and get curriculum of Quran study. And read on Quran criticism of authentic Islamic sources.

The problem is you have not done the research yet you make these assumptions. Seriously surprising.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Brother. People very very rarely accept reality.

CH is a satirical magazine. By definition, any topic they write or draw about, is going to mock.
This isn't a secret.

 

[firedragon]

All I'm saying is that Islamic blasphemy laws never apply to non-Muslims so they have the right to draw and say whatever they like. Muslims have a right to be angry, but not to tell the non-Muslims to stop.

Again, you are repeating the same thing this guy Amanaki has been saying all along. Obviously. No one has the right to tell non-muslims to stop. You are focusing on the affected, but you are not even giving two hoots about the one who is using this for their own fame and gain.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A muslim should not kill, nor do i have any wish to harm non believers or religioues people from other paths.

That's great.

I have no need to mock Buddhas or Gods spoken about in other religions.

That's great.

All i want is to practice in peace with all people

Nobody is stopping you to do so.

 

[firedragon]

CH is a satirical magazine. By definition, any topic they write or draw about, is going to mock.
This isn't a secret.

Of course.

 

[firedragon]

Don't be ridiculous.

Great argument. Good for you.

 

[firedragon]

It's amazing how much noise the "moderate" muslim makes about a silly drawing, while keeping utterly silent of such gruesome and barbaric behaviour.

Who is the "moderate muslim" here mate?

 

[Rival]

of course. But you are still absolutely wrong.



What do you mean free from errors? Are you repeating something you learned off the internet from a website or a YouTube video critiquing the Quran which is directly against your own statement that it rarely happens? Tell me. In Jewish studies of the Torah or whatever study, do they teach Moses never existed? So do you understand how bias your question "Where are they saying that Muhammad never existed and so couldn't have been given the Qur'an" is?

First thing is go to a university and get curriculum of Quran study. And read on Quran criticism of authentic Islamic sources.

The problem is you have not done the research yet you make these assumptions. Seriously surprising.

No, they don't (albeit actually, I've just read that apparently some are teaching the DH in order to make their students aware of it); but that's not my main issue here. Where are the scholars in Islamic countries who are doing these studies? Criticism of Christian texts came from Christian countries. Is the same thing happening in the Islamic world? Is higher criticism applied to the Qur'an? If it were, would it be accepted? Or would there be riots, such as over the cartoons?

 

[Rival]

Again, you are repeating the same thing this guy Amanaki has been saying all along. Obviously. No one has the right to tell non-muslims to stop. You are focusing on the affected, but you are not even giving two hoots about the one who is using this for their own fame and gain.

Maybe I read him wrong but as far as I could tell, Amanaki is in favour of these blasphemy laws. It came across as his being in favour of Islamic blasphemy laws in non-Islamic countries, which is nonsensical.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where did i say that?

Come on now..... don't pretend as if you didn't repeatedly call for the reinstallation of blasphemy laws.

In fact, you already introduced your thoughts about this in your very first reply in this thread on page 1.

All i asked was to respect that drawing of Muhammad (pbuh) should not be made.

You can always ask, but in a free country nobody is under any obligation to follow your request.

The question is since most people today it is a sensitive topic for muslims, non muslims still chose to draw and show it publicly.
Why?

To make a point. That point being that those muslims need to learn a lesson in tolerance and secularism.

The more violent reaction that comes from such bullies, the more such drawings will be made.
One needs to stand up to bullies, not bend over.

 

[firedragon]

No, they don't (albeit actually, I've just read that apparently some are teaching the DH in order to make their students aware of it); but that's not my main issue here. Where are the scholars in Islamic countries who are doing these studies? Criticism of Christian texts came from Christian countries. Is the same thing happening in the Islamic world? Is higher criticism applied to the Qur'an? If it were, would it be accepted? Or would there be riots, such as over the cartoons?

Well. It shows how much you need to research a little about things you are commenting on. You have no clue but are making profound statement as if they are well researched. Dont do that. Its beneath you.

Quran criticism, I repeat, has been happening for 1300 years. Just that you are not well researched. All forms of criticism has been applied to the Quran. Form, Redaction, source, narrative, manuscript.

Do a bit of research. You are absolutely unaware.

 

[firedragon]

Maybe I read him wrong but as far as I could tell, Amanaki is in favour of these blasphemy laws. It came across as his being in favour of Islamic blasphemy laws in non-Islamic countries, which is nonsensical.

You can clarify the intent of a person. Its easy. Just ask.

 

[Rival]

Well. It shows how much you need to research a little about things you are commenting on. You have no clue but are making profound statement as if they are well researched. Dont do that. Its beneath you.

Quran criticism, I repeat, has been happening for 1300 years. Just that you are not well researched. All forms of criticism has been applied to the Quran. Form, Redaction, source, narrative, manuscript.

Do a bit of research. You are absolutely unaware.

Where is it? Are there any Mediaeval works you can point me to on this?

 

[firedragon]

No, they don't (albeit actually, I've just read that apparently some are teaching the DH in order to make their students aware of it); but that's not my main issue here. Where are the scholars in Islamic countries who are doing these studies? Criticism of Christian texts came from Christian countries. Is the same thing happening in the Islamic world? Is higher criticism applied to the Qur'an? If it were, would it be accepted? Or would there be riots, such as over the cartoons?

Tell me. Do you accept the documentary hypothesis?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know others see it as their birthgiven right to mock anyone they want, i can not stop them. But since they know that it will upset muslims because it is not right in islam to do it, they still draw it so to intentionally upset muslims. Then is it truly muslims fault?

Yes!!! It is absolutely the muslims' fault for riotting, setting churches on fire, executing random christians, setting fire to embassies and christian homes (killing people inside in the process) , setting of bombs, going on killing sprees, etc as a reaction to a DRAWING.

Yes, those outcomes are 110% the fault of those muslims.

Because you see..... they could also just not care about what some non-muslim draws in some satirical magazine which barely printed 60k copies.

 

[firedragon]

Where is it? Are there any Mediaeval works you can point me to on this?

1. Tahzib atthahzib
2. Thariq atthahzib
3. Almudhawanna alkubra
4. Thasrif ul Quran

Just top of mind.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So Buring a the Quran, stommping on it, tearing it apart infront of muslims should be met by a shrugg on our shoulders? We should not react to it?

It's just a book.

Ask yourself what is actually important to you?
The contents of the book (of which you have your own copy anyway), or what some non-muslim does with it and who sees only paper with ink on them?

Imagine for a second if you actually WOULD just shrugg your shoulders and walk away - and assume all muslims would do that.

Do you think CH would be distributing millions of copies instead of the 60k they had for years before it?
Do you think racists or right wingers would still do such things in front of muslims? You know they are only in for it to get a violent reactions so that they can use that to make a politcal point, right... So what do you think would be left for them if you would simply not care (or not show them that you care)?

 

[firedragon]

1. Tahzib atthahzib
2. Thariq atthahzib
3. Almudhawanna alkubra
4. Thasrif ul Quran

Just top of mind.

@Rival
Now sis, could you give me some Tanakh criticism from Jewish scholars of the nature of Form, redaction, narrative, source and good manuscript criticism from the lets say the 3rd century or maybe earlier even? Lets see if your accusations are considered looking at yourself in the mirror.