• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is there anything outside the material universe?

Audie

Veteran Member
I propose that some of these exist in both the physical realm and the spiritual realm and that the two realms are not really separate from each other, they are interconnected, interwoven. We, in the physical realm, cannot see the spiritual realm, but they, in the spiritual realm, can see the physical realm... Some people in the physical realm (mediums) can contact the spiritual realm and get information back from the spirits/souls who reside there.

No, nothing can be proven about the spiritual realm because the methods we have for proving can only prove physical things... This is logic 101 stuff.

But just because it cannot be proven by the methods we have does not mean it does not exist... God cannot be proven either but that does not mean God does not exist. The only reason we have to believe that God or a spiritual realm exist is because of the revealed religions... There is no other way to know about any of this.

Seems to me that NDE, out of body stuff is often
brought up to show that the mind can exist outside the body, and that it demonstrates the "spiritual realm".
whatever exactly that means.

If someone did an out of body, and could accurately
describe events / things outside the room where he
was whilst mind went wandering, would that prove
the spiritual realm?

If nothing can be demonstrated or known about God or
anything spiritual, as it that they cannot be detected,
or anything learned about them, is that not pretty much
the qualification for non -existence?

How do you, does anyone know that we cannot detect God
by physical means?

Up till recently it was not know that radio waves existed, and
for sure nobody knew how to detect them, but they were there, all t he same.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
Seems to me that NDE, out of body stuff is often
brought up to show that the mind can exist outside the body, and that it demonstrates the "spiritual realm".
whatever exactly that means.

If someone did an out of body, and could accurately
describe events / things outside the room where he
was whilst mind went wandering, would that prove
the spiritual realm?

From anything I have seen, it has never been proven satisfactorily beyond chance that such things occur.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Seems to me that NDE, out of body stuff is often
brought up to show that the mind can exist outside the body, and that it demonstrates the "spiritual realm".
whatever exactly that means.
NDE does not necessarily demonstrate a spiritual realm, only that there is consciousness outside the body. It is the soul that exists outside the body, not the mind. The mind is associated with the brain, but the soul is a mystery of God. The soul animates the body and brain. A body cannot exist without a soul, but a soul can exist without a body. The soul continues to exist after the body dies and goes to the spiritual realm.
If someone did an out of body, and could accurately
describe events / things outside the room where he was whilst mind went wandering, would that prove
the spiritual realm?
No, I do not think that proves a spiritual realm, it only proves that there can be consciousness outside the body.
If nothing can be demonstrated or known about God or
anything spiritual, as it that they cannot be detected, or anything learned about them, is that not pretty much
the qualification for non -existence?
No, because God and the spiritual world are not material so we cannot detect them from the material world... But that does not mean they do not exist.
How do you, does anyone know that we cannot detect God
by physical means?
Because nobody ever has and the scriptures say that God is unknowable and inaccessible.
Up till recently it was not know that radio waves existed, and for sure nobody knew how to detect them, but they were there, all the same.
That is a valid point and some people say that they can feel God's presence, detect God, but that is if they are in tune with God. Also, it is not something that we can measure like radio waves, and most importantly, it is not something that can be proven to have happened, and God cannot be measured with any instruments. God can only be detected by the soul of man... :D

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159
 

Audie

Veteran Member
NDE does not necessarily demonstrate a spiritual realm, only that there is consciousness outside the body. It is the soul that exists outside the body, not the mind. The mind is associated with the brain, but the soul is a mystery of God. The soul animates the body and brain. A body cannot exist without a soul, but a soul can exist without a body. The soul continues to exist after the body dies and goes to the spiritual realm.

No, I do not think that proves a spiritual realm, it only proves that there can be consciousness outside the body.

No, because God and the spiritual world are not material so we cannot detect them from the material world... But that does not mean they do not exist.

Because nobody ever has and the scriptures say that God is unknowable and inaccessible.

That is a valid point and some people say that they can feel God's presence, detect God, but that is if they are in tune with God. Also, it is not something that we can measure like radio waves, and most importantly, it is not something that can be proven to have happened, and God cannot be measured with any instruments. God can only be detected by the soul of man... :D

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

NDE does not necessarily demonstrate a spiritual realm, only that there is consciousness outside the body. It is the soul that exists outside the body, not the mind. The mind is associated with the brain, but the soul is a mystery of God.

This above seems the essence of your post.

Sorry but all I see is that you contradict yourself
and make assertions of facts not in evidence.

No such thing has been demonstrated-to my knowledge- and, if there is a soul, and it is as god-thing then that is a spiritual thing. Whatever "spiritual" really means.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No such thing has been demonstrated-to my knowledge- and, if there is a soul, and it is as god-thing then that is a spiritual thing. Whatever "spiritual" really means.
And it never will be demonstrated either because it is immaterial and immaterial things cannot be demonstrated by material means, logically speaking. The way we know they exist is because the Messengers of God reveal that, so we believe what they say or not.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
And it never will be demonstrated either because it is immaterial and immaterial things cannot be demonstrated by material means, logically speaking. The way we know they exist is because the Messengers of God reveal that, so we believe what they say or not.

NDE does not necessarily demonstrate a spiritual realm, only that there is consciousness outside the body. It is the soul that exists outside the body, not the mind. The mind is associated with the brain, but the soul is a mystery of God.

I dont get you, at all. Here you say that the above is demonstrated.
And simply assert that there is a god.


Then you assert that it never will be nor can be demonstrated,
(more facts not in evidence) after saying it is demonstrated.

Messengers of god..

I would be so much more inclined to believe the messengers, if there
were to be some sort of agreement among them.

Do you have a reason not to believe Joseph Smith?
Mormon Literature Sampler: Joseph Smith Tells His Own Story

I think it is well worth reading what some several million people believe in.

What is the method to pick and choose? Everyone seems to have a different method.

Seems as if the Master of the Universe, all his angels, messengers and books
dont manage very well.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No, because God and the spiritual world are not material so we cannot detect them from the material world... But that does not mean they do not exist.

Because nobody ever has and the scriptures say that God is unknowable and inaccessible.
Moses seemed to be able to access God just fine and if he could see God's butt so could our cameras.

And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: 22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Exodus 33 KJV
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
There is no reason to think that. Moses was a Prophet/Messenger of God. We are not. :oops:

Hi :D But rather than having any messengers, why not just imbue the spirit within us all so as to not produce any confusion - so that we all recognise this. As pointed out, there have been so many 'messengers' and they are hardly all speaking as one. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - oh, that is precisely what we have had with regards religious conflicts over the few millennia they have existed :oops:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Messengers of god..

I would be so much more inclined to believe the messengers, if there
were to be some sort of agreement among them.

Do you have a reason not to believe Joseph Smith?
Mormon Literature Sampler: Joseph Smith Tells His Own Story

I think it is well worth reading what some several million people believe in.

What is the method to pick and choose? Everyone seems to have a different method.

Seems as if the Master of the Universe, all his angels, messengers and books
dont manage very well.
The method to pick and choose is to look at all the Messengers/religions who are likely to have a valid claim. Some can be eliminated right off the bat, if they claim to have a message from God but there is no evidence to indicate that they got any message from God...

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

According to the definition of evidence, there is evidence for Messengers of God/Prophets, and some have more and better evidence to support their claim than others have...For example, the evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:
  • What He was like as a person (His character);
  • What He did during His mission on earth;
  • The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
  • The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
  • What others have written about Him;
  • The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
  • The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
  • The predictions He made that have come to pass;
  • The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

I do not really think it makes sense to look at the older Messengers such as Moses and Jesus and Muhammad because their messages were not written for this age in history and the shelf life of the message has expired. If one is to be logical, one has to ask what is in the message and if it is what is needed for the present age going forward.

The reason I do not believe Joseph Smith is because I do not believe he received a revelation from God. He might have good teachings, but I adhere to the teachings of Baha’u’llah because I am a Baha’i...

How did I come to the conclusion that the Baha’i Faith was the religion for this day? I investigated it and found it had what humanity needs... The process is as such:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

“The principles of the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart—so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization in Persia, in Europe, and in the whole world.”Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 22
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Hi :D But rather than having any messengers, why not just imbue the spirit within us all so as to not produce any confusion - so that we all recognise this. As pointed out, there have been so many 'messengers' and they are hardly all speaking as one. Sounds like a recipe for disaster - oh, that is precisely what we have had with regards religious conflicts over the few millennia they have existed :oops:
A “spirit within us” cannot convey a message from God that everyone on earth would be able to understand and remember... That is why we have scriptures that are in books and on the internet, readily available for people to read.Baha’u’llah wrote about 15,000 Tablets and those are just the ones that we have. He wrote many more than that that were lost to infamy. So, imagine yourself trying to write all that down yourself. :eek:

But that is a moot point because the message the message conveyed to the Messengers via the Holy Spirit is not receivable by anyone else except Messengers. Nobody else would have the capacity to understand it.

A Messenger of God is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather preexistent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.
 

Mock Turtle

Me too, I would change
Premium Member
A “spirit within us” cannot convey a message from God that everyone on earth would be able to understand and remember... That is why we have scriptures that are in books and on the internet, readily available for people to read.Baha’u’llah wrote about 15,000 Tablets and those are just the ones that we have. He wrote many more than that that were lost to infamy. So, imagine yourself trying to write all that down yourself. :eek:

But that is a moot point because the message the message conveyed to the Messengers via the Holy Spirit is not receivable by anyone else except Messengers. Nobody else would have the capacity to understand it.

A Messenger of God is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather preexistent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

For me, there is just too much possibly for these messengers to be false - amongst any who might be genuine - just as in the written material - since they all must inevitably pass through human agency.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
The method to pick and choose is to look at all the Messengers/religions who are likely to have a valid claim. Some can be eliminated right off the bat, if they claim to have a message from God but there is no evidence to indicate that they got any message from God...

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

According to the definition of evidence, there is evidence for Messengers of God/Prophets, and some have more and better evidence to support their claim than others have...For example, the evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God is as follows:
  • What He was like as a person (His character);
  • What He did during His mission on earth;
  • The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
  • The scriptures that were attributed to Him or scriptures that He wrote;
  • What others have written about Him;
  • The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming,
  • The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
  • The predictions He made that have come to pass;
  • The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

I do not really think it makes sense to look at the older Messengers such as Moses and Jesus and Muhammad because their messages were not written for this age in history and the shelf life of the message has expired. If one is to be logical, one has to ask what is in the message and if it is what is needed for the present age going forward.

The reason I do not believe Joseph Smith is because I do not believe he received a revelation from God. He might have good teachings, but I adhere to the teachings of Baha’u’llah because I am a Baha’i...

How did I come to the conclusion that the Baha’i Faith was the religion for this day? I investigated it and found it had what humanity needs... The process is as such:

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

“The principles of the Teachings of Bahá’u’lláh should be carefully studied, one by one, until they are realized and understood by mind and heart—so will you become strong followers of the light, truly spiritual, heavenly soldiers of God, acquiring and spreading the true civilization in Persia, in Europe, and in the whole world.”Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 22


Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply.

Where our paths part is that I dont believe any of them.
get Messages.

Now, there are people who may achieve great insights,
powerful wisdom, truths for all mankind.

I dont think any of it comes from outside though.
Actually, I see that as a kind of insult to our kind,
demeaning the amazing accomplishments of the
countless generations of our ancestors.

Just how I see it.

Baha'i sounds interesting.
 
Top