Is there Free Will in Heaven?

[Cordoba]

unless her husband was feeling like coffee that day, in which case your entire analogy falls to pieces because god would know that he wanted coffee that day and the wife would not, she would assume due to prior knowledge of her husband ordering tea at some earlier point in time, or prefering tea on a regular basis. God would not care what you 'prefer,' he would know exactly what you want, and not just in the near future but every decision you make for the rest of your life. THAT is why your free will becomes non-existant.

I said that it is not a 100% accurate analogy because God is unique in being Eternal, which means He sees the future, which no one else can, and therefore only He is 100% right

But in this example, the wife is certain that her husband would not order coffee:

a) Because he hates coffee

b) Because the doctor ordered him not to drink coffee because of his stomach ulcer

The wife knows in advance, but her knowledge does not mean her husband does not have a free will

 

[jonman122]

I said that it is not a 100% accurate analogy because God is unique in being Eternal, which means He sees the future, which no one else can, and therefore only He is 100% right

But in this example, the wife is certain that her husband would not order coffee:

a) Because he hates coffee

b) Because the doctor ordered him not to drink coffee because of his stomach ulcer

The wife knows in advance, but her knowledge does not mean her husband does not have a free will

if anything at all knows your future, you now have literally no free will whatsoever.

thats how free will works, believe it or not.

 

[Cordoba]

if anything at all knows your future, you now have literally no free will whatsoever.

The one exception to this rule is God

Why?

Because He is Fair and Just, and because He is Eternal

He knows the future as He is The Creator of time, but at the same time He does not hold us accountable for something if we can't choose between alternatives

There is to Him no equivalent

 

[ahmed.zafar]

Free will in Heaven is a choice between all options which are permissible, as the rules in Heaven are not the same as the rules here on earth. For example, alcohol is prohibited in this life but in Heaven it is permissible.

As for Adam, he forgot God's warning, and was sent astray by Satan

The end result is that he disobeyed God's command not to eat from that tree. But God later showed him how to repent, which he did, and God forgave him

As for God not allowing evil to exist if He wanted all people to go to Heaven, this is the case with angels not human beings. Angels don't sin as they don't have a free will to enable them to sin. This is not the case with human beings. We live on earth, and we do have the choice between belief and disbelief, between good and evil, and each person uses his/her free will in making their own choices in life.

A professor wants all his students to pass the course, but does that mean they are all entitled to pass? Or some deserve to pass and some don't? He gives them a test and those who do well succeed, and those who don't fail the course.

Same here. God wants us all to be in Heaven in the Hereafter, and He has shown us what to do, by sending us His Guidance. Those who want to be in Heaven only need to follow His Guidance

It's a personal free choice

Very well quoted much explained then my post.

 

[PolyHedral]

He knows the future as He is The Creator of time, but at the same time He does not hold us accountable for something if we can't choose between alternatives

Then he does not hold anyone accountable for anything. If any sort of 100% accurate prescience exists, regardless of its source, the universe is deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, you can't have free will. The only possible exception to this is if God is deliberately breaking logic. However, this is an undefendable position, so don't try to argue it.

 

[Thief]

Free will in Heaven is a choice between all options which are permissible, as the rules in Heaven are not the same as the rules here on earth. For example, alcohol is prohibited in this life but in Heaven it is permissible.

A misconception...on your part.
"I shall not partake this wine again...until I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

As for Adam, he forgot God's warning, and was sent astray by Satan

Adam didn't forget anything...he knew what he was doing.

The end result is that he disobeyed God's command not to eat from that tree. But God later showed him how to repent, which he did, and God forgave him

Being sorry for what you did is regret...not repentance.

As for God not allowing evil to exist if He wanted all people to go to Heaven, this is the case with angels not human beings. Angels don't sin as they don't have a free will to enable them to sin. Lucifer was cast out for his indiscretion.This is not the case with human beings. We live on earth, and we do have the choice between belief and disbelief, between good and evil, and each person uses his/her free will in making their own choices in life.

A professor wants all his students to pass the course, but does that mean they are all entitled to pass? Or some deserve to pass and some don't? He gives them a test and those who do well succeed, and those who don't fail the course.

This is a statement of ability...not obedience.

Same here. God wants us all to be in Heaven in the Hereafter, and He has shown us what to do, by sending us His Guidance. Those who want to be in Heaven only need to follow His Guidance

It's a personal free choice ...and this differs from freewill?...how?

I wish you were better at this.
It seems you are deceiving your fellow man.

 

[Cordoba]

Then he does not hold anyone accountable for anything. If any sort of 100% accurate prescience exists, regardless of its source, the universe is deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, you can't have free will. The only possible exception to this is if God is deliberately breaking logic.

You are comparing apples and oranges, as your assumptions are based on human logic

God's Knowledge is much more advanced than ours, as He is The All-Knowing

The concept of time is also very different, as The Creator of time is not constrained by time like we are

Let me give you an example to illustrate:

A software engineer designs the software of a robot. Does this imply that the same software he invented also controls the engineer's thinking and behavior?

The clear answer is no. The engineer is not "constrained" by the rules of the software he designed for the robot

Same here. God created us and this amazing universe, and He established its rules and laws, including time. He is not constrained by these rules, nor by time because He is The Creator and He is Eternal

The fact that He can see the future and that He knows what will happen does not mean that He forces us to make these decisions, as among His rules in this universe is that humans have free will, and also among His attributes is that He is Just and Fair. He would not hold us accountable for our decisions if we had no free will, and the proof is He does not hold accountable those who did not receive His Guidance

His Knowledge is independent from our free will, and His Fairness and Justice are important keys for understanding this whole matter

 

[PolyHedral]

The concept of time is also very different, as The Creator of time is not constrained by time like we are

Being able to see what we see as the future counts as 100% prescience. Unless my logic is faulty, (feel free to point if it is! ) then if any entity can see the future, through any means, free will is invalid. (Defining the "future" as our future.)

A software engineer designs the software of a robot. Does this imply that the same software he invented also controls the engineer's thinking and behavior?

Uh, maybe? It's entirely possible for the engineer to make a program that can answer some questions better than he can.

The clear answer is no. The engineer is not "constrained" by the rules of the software he designed for the robot

Software does not consist of rules, however. Software is a set of instructions, which may be to simulate something according to a set of rules. And, in the context of a simulation, yes, the engineer might have to obey those rules. It is, for instance, impossible for an engineer to insert a 3D object into a simulation of 2D physics.

The fact that He can see the future and that He knows what will happen does not mean that He forces us to make these decisions

It might not, but it means that we can't possible have free will, because he knows what we will choose ahead of time.

His Knowledge is independent from our free will, and His Fairness and Justice are important keys for understanding this whole matter

But the fact that his knowledge can exist (regardless of whether it does or not!) invalidates free will automatically.

 

[Cordoba]

But the fact that his knowledge can exist (regardless of whether it does or not!) invalidates free will automatically.

My dear friend God is Eternal

He is Unique, and there is to Him no equivalent

He gave us free will, and He says:

(And say the truth is from your Lord; so whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve) (The Qur'an, 18:29)

It's an individual free choice which each one of us has to make, regardless of His Knowledge

 

[Beaudreaux]

"You shall not enter...until you are such as these."
Jesus, as He had been surrounded by children...and His disciples made objection.

Pardon if you will the quote...as different books read differently.

So, when children die, they go to Heaven and eternal paradise?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Does that include...you?

Or maybe you...do....have freewill?

Are you saying that human free will means God in unable to know our future?

 

[Beaudreaux]

God knows who will pass the test and who won't but His knowledge does not contradict with our free will

He knows because He is Eternal, which means He is not constrained by the boundaries of time. There is no separation between past, present and future in His knowledge, and His knowledge is independent from each person's free decision to believe or disbelieve, obey or disobey

So, if God knows today that I will not pass the test, is it at all possible that I WOULD pass the test?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Free will does not have to have evil attached to it. You can do good and still hav choices. Maybe, if heaven exists, we won't have evil desires.

To his #3, then why did he give evil desires to us here?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Does this make you greater than a rock?

?????

 

[Beaudreaux]

Yeah...I don't think anyone will miss him.

Well, this is certainly uncalled for. The guy was making a legitimate point. I don't know why you have to become belligerent.

If the future is known now, then there can be no choice. You are going to do what God knows you will do and there is no way you can do anything else because if you do something God did not foreknow then God will have been mistaken.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The most powerful angel rebelled against God. In the end he loses. I think it will serve as a reminder to any weaker angels that would attempt a future takeover.



Adam and Eve had free will. That is how they were able to sin. That was before the fall.



You cannot have free will without the potential for evil. Love cannot exist without hate.

So, in heaven, there will be free will and the potential for evil. How will sinners in paradise be dealt with? Will they "get a transfer"?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I have read through them all and I have made up my mind that none of them are correct. None are truly divine revelations from God.

Have you investigated the Baha'i faith? What makes you so sure that Islam was not overruled by Baha'i? If the Bible can be overruled by the Qu'ran, what makes you so sure that the Qu'ran cannot be overruled by the Kitáb-i-Aqdas? How do you know that the message wasn't corrupted once again?

Not allowed to re-frubal so soon, so I'll just give you kudos.

KUDOS to you!

 

[rusra02]

I've heard time and time again from Christians that the reason there's so much evil in the world is so that we may possess free will. Without evil, there would be no free will. My questions are:

1) Is there evil in heaven?

2) If not, then does that mean there's no free will in heaven either?

3) If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't God just make things like that on Earth to begin with?

1) Is there evil in heaven? There was, but not any more. (Job 1:6,7 Revelation 12:9-12)

2) If not, then does that mean there's no free will in heaven either? See answer to 1) above. Angels have free will, just as we do.

3) If there is free will and no evil in heaven, then why didn't God just make things like that on Earth to begin with?[/quote] He did. Adam and Eve were perfect, morally upright and without sin. They had free will, as did the angels, including the angel who wrongly used his free will to deceive Eve, and bring death into the world.

 

[Thief]

1) Is there evil in heaven? There was, but not any more. (Job 1:6,7 Revelation 12:9-12)

2) If not, then does that mean there's no free will in heaven either? See answer to 1) above. Angels have free will, just as we do.

3) He did. Adam and Eve were perfect, morally upright and without sin, They had free will, as did the angels, including the angel who wrongly used his free will to deceive Eve, and bring death into the world.

Line 3....no....
The deception was the lie spoken by the serpent.
That partaking would not bring death.

Man dies...physically...whether there is a devil or not.
The acquisition of knowledge was needful.
That we know the difference between good and evil.
So, when we die, our souls do not perish.

When God spoke that partaking would be followed by death....
is true for all men.
We are here to learn....between good and evil....then we die.

 

[Danmac]

So, in heaven, there will be free will and the potential for evil. How will sinners in paradise be dealt with? Will they "get a transfer"?

They will be overly thankful for the previous transfer.