Is Trinity in the Bible?

[Popeyesays]

Actually, that's pretty correct. although no mainstream Christian believes that sperm and genetics were involved, we do believe that God begat Jesus in Mary, through his Spirit. Definition number 2 is also compelling, when looked at next to the Jn 1 passage.

Muslims and Baha`i's would agree with #2 as well - in most senses. I think that Muslims would have some trouble getting to that because the Arabic word for "Beget" does not stretch itself to encompass definition #2.

The idea expressed in the Qur'an and the Baha`i ideals is that Mary was conceived of God by an act of God's WILL. He said:BE!, and it was. In the Qur'an she is not only impregnated in the same day, but delivers Jesus in that same day. Read the Qur'an Surah of Maryam (Mary) for details.

Regards,
Scott

 

[sojourner]

Speak for yourself. I'm certainly part of the Christian mainstream and I believe (as does anyone who agrees with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, even in its altered western form) that Christ was begotten before all ages and was made Incarnate in the Theotokos by the Holy Spirit. In other words, He assumed flesh through Mary but that is not when He was begotten.

James

Well, yes. I should have been more specific. "Made incarnate" is better language.. Sorry about that. Just shows what happens when I try to do two things at once, like type and chew gum...That's what I believe, too. Begat by God, made incarnate in Mary. No genetics involved.

 

[alexander garcia]

trinity, I don't mean to offend but it is so easily proved by scripture to be a lie from the devil! First anything that is not there is NOT THERE. That is simple. But what every one ignors, is the truth. get a strongs and see how many times ( not LORD or GOD ) but the true (YHVH) Yahvah Elohim says Iam ONE not two or three but one! Read ISA> chapters 40 to 50, ten chapters of the Father YHVH saying I alone by myself with no one I am the only one. Look at how many times YAHVAH says that directly in those ten chapters. Since peoples eyes are closed that they can't count to one. Well can they understand I by myself, I alone, I am the only one, there is no one but me. and on and on. Now what were you saying about what you can show by scripture?

 

[Buttons*]

trinity, I don't mean to offend but it is so easily proved by scripture to be a lie from the devil! First anything that is not there is NOT THERE. That is simple. But what every one ignors, is the truth. get a strongs and see how many times ( not LORD or GOD ) but the true (YHVH) Yahvah Elohim says Iam ONE not two or three but one! Read ISA> chapters 40 to 50, ten chapters of the Father YHVH saying I alone by myself with no one I am the only one. Look at how many times YAHVAH says that directly in those ten chapters. Since peoples eyes are closed that they can't count to one. Well can they understand I by myself, I alone, I am the only one, there is no one but me. and on and on. Now what were you saying about what you can show by scripture?

... i dont think you're by any means alone on your opinions

However, people have different interpretations in scripture, and i'm sure you'll hear the argument, if you havent already, that in Genesis God says, "let us make man in our image"... some people take that differently than you.

Does interpretation make your thoughts evil? *shrugs* I dont know.

Just because you dont see what some other people see doesn't make it a lie, you know. I dont call your faith a lie, i never would.

 

[sojourner]

trinity, I don't mean to offend but it is so easily proved by scripture to be a lie from the devil! First anything that is not there is NOT THERE. That is simple. But what every one ignors, is the truth. get a strongs and see how many times ( not LORD or GOD ) but the true (YHVH) Yahvah Elohim says Iam ONE not two or three but one! Read ISA> chapters 40 to 50, ten chapters of the Father YHVH saying I alone by myself with no one I am the only one. Look at how many times YAHVAH says that directly in those ten chapters. Since peoples eyes are closed that they can't count to one. Well can they understand I by myself, I alone, I am the only one, there is no one but me. and on and on. Now what were you saying about what you can show by scripture?

And it's also easy to interpret the Trinity from scripture.

 

[gnostic]

Let's get this straight. There are no explicit usage of the word "Trinity" anywhere in the Bible. The use of "Trinity" is not found in any writings until the 2nd century AD, by some Church Fathers (orthodox, which later developed into the Roman (Catholics) and Greek (Orthodox) churches.

The early Church Fathers had also used in their writings against early Gnosticism, because the orthodox usage is different from that of gnostic usage.

 

[wmam]

Does interpretation make your thoughts "Righteous"? *shrugs* I dont know.

Just because you dont see what some other people see doesn't make it a "True", you know. I dont call your faith a "Truth", i never would.

Funny how this sounds when the opposite words are inserted.

 

[Popeyesays]

And it's also easy to interpret the Trinity from scripture.

Finding the "trinity" (with a "little 't') isn't hard/ Its present in every revealed religion.
God, Who inspires His Apostle with the Holy SPirit (the Word or Book). Its jumping the gap from these three separate things to being all equal slices of the same pie that is difficult.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Doodlebug02]

Yes, its right here:

(KJV) Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[mehrosh]

Trinity or the 'Mystery of the mysteries' can be defined as : The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality). The definition of the trinity was established after Jesus left earth by at least 200 years. The word trinity itself is not included in the Gospels. The following verse has been used sometime to prove the Trinity: 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.' [1 John 5:7 (King James Version)]. Yet, this verse has been removed from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (RSV) by thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations, they tell us that it was an interpolation, a later addition to the text of the statement. The RSV goes back to the 'most ancient manuscripts'. According to Bruce Metzger, a world renowned authority on the manuscripts and transmission of the Greek New Testament (NT) text, the term 'trinity' is not in the Bible and it cannot be clearly detected from the scripture: ' Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the NT. Likewise the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon' (Oxford Companion to the Bible, ed. Bruce Metzger, OUP, 1993, p. 782). Also, consider the following testimonies: 'Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament' (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Vol. 11, p. 928). 'Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity' (The Encyclopedia of Religion, ed. Mircea Eliade, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987, Vol. 15, p. 54). 'The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament' (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306). All the prophets preceding Jesus mentioned clearly that there is only one God. They never said God Almighty is a three-in-one God. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ' [Matthew 5:17]. When he was asked about the first commandment he said 'The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord' [Mark 12:29]. He didn't say God is Three-in-one or I am God. Trinity is just unexplainable. Churchmen attempted to explain it without any success; so they called it 'the mystery of mysteries'. Trinity was not established on any logical proofs or evidences. It is against logic and man’s comprehension. God Almighty is the most merciful, he would not confuse us by such a concept. 'For God is not the author of confusion but of peace.'[Corinthians 14:33]

 

[sojourner]

Trinity or the 'Mystery of the mysteries' can be defined as : The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality). The definition of the trinity was established after Jesus left earth by at least 200 years. The word trinity itself is not included in the Gospels. The following verse has been used sometime to prove the Trinity: 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.' [1 John 5:7 (King James Version)]. Yet, this verse has been removed from the Revised Standard Version of the Bible (RSV) by thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations, they tell us that it was an interpolation, a later addition to the text of the statement. The RSV goes back to the 'most ancient manuscripts'. According to Bruce Metzger, a world renowned authority on the manuscripts and transmission of the Greek New Testament (NT) text, the term 'trinity' is not in the Bible and it cannot be clearly detected from the scripture: ' Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the NT. Likewise the developed concept of three coequal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon' (Oxford Companion to the Bible, ed. Bruce Metzger, OUP, 1993, p. 782). Also, consider the following testimonies: 'Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament' (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Vol. 11, p. 928). 'Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity' (The Encyclopedia of Religion, ed. Mircea Eliade, Macmillan Publishing Company, 1987, Vol. 15, p. 54). 'The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament' (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306). All the prophets preceding Jesus mentioned clearly that there is only one God. They never said God Almighty is a three-in-one God. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law or the prophets 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ' [Matthew 5:17]. When he was asked about the first commandment he said 'The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord' [Mark 12:29]. He didn't say God is Three-in-one or I am God. Trinity is just unexplainable. Churchmen attempted to explain it without any success; so they called it 'the mystery of mysteries'. Trinity was not established on any logical proofs or evidences. It is against logic and man’s comprehension. God Almighty is the most merciful, he would not confuse us by such a concept. 'For God is not the author of confusion but of peace.'[Corinthians 14:33]

The NRSV, the most reliable English translation to date, has this to say: [I Jn. 5:7] "There are three who tesitfy: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree." In the annotations is written: "A few other authorities read (with variations) 'There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.'"

These three listed in the NRSV attest to the sacraments through which God's grace is manifested within the human story: The blood of the sacrifice, the water of baptism, and the Spirit of truth. These three "testifiers" are all actions of God. The creation is an action of God. The Christ Event is an action of God. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is an action of God. What more do you need here?
The Trinity, by nomenclature and doctrine is not explicit in the scripture, but it is implicit.

 

[mehrosh]

The NRSV, the most reliable English translation to date, has this to say: [I Jn. 5:7] "There are three who tesitfy: the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree." In the annotations is written: "A few other authorities read (with variations) 'There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.'"

These three listed in the NRSV attest to the sacraments through which God's grace is manifested within the human story: The blood of the sacrifice, the water of baptism, and the Spirit of truth. These three "testifiers" are all actions of God. The creation is an action of God. The Christ Event is an action of God. The manifestation of the Holy Spirit is an action of God. What more do you need here?
The Trinity, by nomenclature and doctrine is not explicit in the scripture, but it is implicit.

I see...but the verse you have quoted has already been thrown out of the Bible......I ask you, If suppose you have three identical triplets, one commits murder, will you hang the other? you will say, No(logical answer).....I ask you why .....because they are not the same......the other is innocent....so whats the difference.....PERSONALITY......Right? Now the Father, the son, and the Holy ghost are not even identical Triplets,.....When you say in the name of the Father...whats the picture in your mind? you will have something right? the picture of a good father in heaven millions and million times bigger than human sitting on the earth....and when you say in the name of the son.....the picture is again there.....of a handsome young man, blue eyes, lovely beard...or something somewhat like that....but when you say in the name of the Holy Ghost there is a picture of a dove flying here and there something somewhat like that......There are three different images not One.....God says in the Quran.........They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.....Brother Ponder over my post....Thanks in advance

 

[michel]

I see...but the verse you have quoted has already been thrown out of the Bible......I ask you, If suppose you have three identical triplets, one commits murder, will you hang the other? you will say, No(logical answer).....I ask you why .....because they are not the same......the other is innocent....so whats the difference.....PERSONALITY......Right? Now the Father, the son, and the Holy ghost are not even identical Triplets,.....When you say in the name of the Father...whats the picture in your mind? you will have something right? the picture of a good father in heaven millions and million times bigger than human sitting on the earth....and when you say in the name of the son.....the picture is again there.....of a handsome young man, blue eyes, lovely beard...or something somewhat like that....but when you say in the name of the Holy Ghost there is a picture of a dove flying here and there something somewhat like that......There are three different images not One.....God says in the Quran.........They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.....Brother Ponder over my post....Thanks in advance

Why do you quote the qu'ran here? Don't you use the Holy Bible (actually, I notice your profile doesn't quote your religious affiliation); would you share it with us ?(of course you don't have to, if you choose not to do so)

 

[mehrosh]

Why do you quote the qu'ran here? Don't you use the Holy Bible (actually, I notice your profile doesn't quote your religious affiliation); would you share it with us ?(of course you don't have to, if you choose not to do so)

Thankyou brother Michel that you asked my about my faith...i have not mentioned in my profile but I am a muslim.......the reason I quote the Quran here is because it is the last testment...I want to quote it again if you don't mind.... and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender....We believe in your original scriptures given to Jesus may peace and blessings of God be upon him....and the one given to Muhammed the last and final...The Quran talks about trinity...and thats what I have quoted here...The Quran also talks about Jesus son of Mary by name 25 times.....you can ask anything else if you desire.......(brother i am having a problem I can't give format to my text...donno why so its all mixed up..hope you understand)

 

[Yasin]

I as a Muslim, who loves and respects Jesus Christ (pbuh) would love to hear it from the Master himself, not from any one else. For indeed Jesus (pbuh) never claimed Divinty, but preached the same message as Prophet Moses (pbuh). That worship the One God (The Father) and none Other.
(Deu 6:4) and (Mark 12:29)

Respectively to all, Yasin:bounce

 

[sojourner]

I as a Muslim, who loves and respects Jesus Christ (pbuh) would love to hear it from the Master himself, not from any one else. For indeed Jesus (pbuh) never claimed Divinty, but preached the same message as Prophet Moses (pbuh). That worship the One God (The Father) and none Other.
(Deu 6:4) and (Mark 12:29)

Respectively to all, Yasin:bounce

Actually, Jesus preached the message, "Repent, for the kingdom of God has come near." And he went on to say, when asked the way to the kingdom, "I am the way..."
I don't think that's the same message Moses brought. At all.

 

[wmam]

I as a Muslim, who loves and respects Jesus Christ (pbuh) would love to hear it from the Master himself, not from any one else. For indeed Jesus (pbuh) never claimed Divinty, but preached the same message as Prophet Moses (pbuh). That worship the One God (The Father) and none Other.
(Deu 6:4) and (Mark 12:29)

Respectively to all, Yasin:bounce

Yes............ I agree. He did not claim Divinity and He did give the same message as Moshe'. He gave that message in a little different way though, I believe, for I believe that He helped explain in better detail that which man had corrupted. We also have to remember what He said here.......

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

I see that it wasn't the "flesh" that was speaking words and or doing works but yet that of the Spirit = Angel = Malak that dwelleth in Him. Being that the Father is the Most High Elohim and the Malak are part of the Elohim family then one could, and did, say that the Father is in them and they are in the Father. Makes sense to me.

 

[Yasin]

Peace to all,

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1)

Many Christians when asked where in the Bible can the concept of trinity be found?, may quote the above verse for evidence, but if anything it does not prove a trinity but rather a Duality, for there is no mention of the Holy Ghost, who is the third person of the Godhead. Moreover, the translators of the Bible, in particular the King James Version, have not rendered the correct terms used for God within this verse. In the original Greek manuscript "The Word" is described as being "ton theos" which is not the same as "ho theos" used for "God". The term "ton theos" has the meaning of something being "divine" or "a god", not in the sense of Divinity of the Almighty, but rather in a metaphoric sense. Examples of this can be found elsewhere in the passages of the Bible where the same term has been used:

Satan, the god of this world (New Testament)

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not...
( 2 Corin 4:4)

Moses (pbuh) a god (Old Testament)

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh...
( Exodus 7:1)

Therefore we can see that this verse has no implications of Trinity, as it may seem at face value. The new World translation Version of the Bible, states "The Word" as "a god" (note: the small g) and thus have made it a more honest rendering.

Any comments will be appreciated!

Respectively to all, Yasin:soccer:

 

[wmam]

Peace to all,

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1)

Many Christians when asked where in the Bible can the concept of trinity be found?, may quote the above verse for evidence, but if anything it does not prove a trinity but rather a Duality, for there is no mention of the Holy Ghost, who is the third person of the Godhead. Moreover, the translators of the Bible, in particular the King James Version, have not rendered the correct terms used for God within this verse. In the original Greek manuscript "The Word" is described as being "ton theos" which is not the same as "ho theos" used for "God". The term "ton theos" has the meaning of something being "divine" or "a god", not in the sense of Divinity of the Almighty, but rather in a metaphoric sense. Examples of this can be found elsewhere in the passages of the Bible where the same term has been used:

Satan, the god of this world (New Testament)

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not...
( 2 Corin 4:4)

Moses (pbuh) a god (Old Testament)

And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh...
( Exodus 7:1)

Therefore we can see that this verse has no implications of Trinity, as it may seem at face value. The new World translation Version of the Bible, states "The Word" as "a god" (note: the small g) and thus have made it a more honest rendering.

Any comments will be appreciated!

Respectively to all, Yasin:soccer:

Ha Satan was a, and may still be, a covering cherubim, as is one other by the name of Yisrael, which was with YAH in the beginning. The Elohim, in this sense, is speaking of the malakhim which comprise of the seraphim which do service to the Throne of the Most High and the cherubim which created all by the "Word" of YAH the Most High Elohim. The "Word" was spoken by YAH in the beginning and was with the malakhim which are apart of Elohim therefore the malakhim was made also by the word which they also created all things by the words spoken by YAH. Theres no duality here. There is the Head which is YAH the Most High then there are His workers which are the cherubim, which are part of the malakhim, which all together make up what is called Elohim.

This is my understanding of Yochanan 1:1 and my comment.

 

[Yasin]

which all together make up what is called Elohim.

.

Thank you for your comment wmam, but you have to remember Elohim is a Hebrew word for God, which has the same grammar rules as the other semitic languages (Aramaic and Arabic), Hebrew has two different plural, a plural of numbers, as we know it and a plural of repect or sometimes called the royal plural, which in this case Elohim is a Plural of respect.

Respectively, Yasin