Is Underage Marriage Allowed in Islam?

[KWED]

Islam supports UNDERAGE MARRIAGE,

Without wishing to sound pedantic, it doesn't really. It just supports MARRIAGE. The age at which marriage is acceptable or permissible is somewhat vague. The Quran suggests that it is permissible even before menstruation starts. This is supported by Muhammed's behaviour (he married Aisha at 6 but waited until she was 9 before having sex with her - presumably when she had her first period).
But whatever age it might be, it does not support marriage under that age. Islam certainly supports underage marriage in the context of current laws, but it is not a concept in Islam.

You can always prove us wrong by producing some Quran scriptures that demonstrate your point.

That is the apologist's problem. There is nothing that unequivocally sets out a specific age for marriage but all the passages dealing with it seem to suggest a young age.

Your personal morals get in the way.

As is often the case.
As I say - religious people are usually better than the religions they follow.

 

[KWED]

You suggest that these "historical scholars" are infallible, but they are not.

Straw man. No one claims that they are "infallible".
However, if a passage is unclear we should consult authoritative scholarly opinion - otherwise we will just have every Tom. Dick and Ahmed making up their own interpretations.

Why is it that the two Muslims in this thread think you are wrong?

1. Because your acquired, 21st century, western morality tells you that sex with young girls is wrong.
2. Why does the opinion of two random Muslims on the internet, whose morality is coloured by living in the 21st century west, outweigh the opinions of several renowned, authoritative, pious, Arabic speaking Muslim scholars who were living in a well-established Islamic state?

Where are all the other Muslims who agree with you?

Erm, all those scholars I quoted?

I have already shown you that the words used in translations you presented are not in the original classical Arabic.

1. The translators were fluent, native Arabic speakers. You are not. They considered those words to represent the meaning of the Arabic passage.
2. The scholars whose tafsir agree that it refers to young girls were not translating. They were working in Classical Arabic.

..but of course, you know better..

*sigh*
No. Several renowned, authoritative, experienced and qualified, Arabic speaking scholars know better.

It all hinges on "those who aren't menstruating", and you want to stick to certain classical scholars tafsir.

If a passage is unclear, we are supposed to consult a tafsir.
In this instance I consulted five. They all come to the same conclusion.
Your argument has literally no substance.

I am not in a sect of my own.

Ironically, That's kinda what you are doing. You are rejecting the established scholarly consensus and insisting on your own interpretation.

Tell you what. You come back with five authoritative, renowned scholars who say that it does not mean those who are too young to have menstruated, and we can revisit the issue. Until then you have nowhere to go.

 

[KWED]

As opposed to the intelligence and empathy to learn better?

If a god can learn, it is neither omniscient nor infallible.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What is the point in scholars and tafsir and hadith if you just reject them..

I don't reject them..
Like scientists who have theories, I inspect the various things that they are saying, and use my intelligence.

I know why you don't use your intelligence, in this particular case.
You want to "play" the "reputable scholar" card.

It is much the same as quoting that Einstein must be right about everything, when we know that he wasn't.

It is further muddied by the fact that the majority of "these scholars" did not speak English.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ironically, That's kinda what you are doing. You are rejecting the established scholarly consensus and insisting on your own interpretation..

Yeah .. that's what lots of "classical Muslims" say about the Salafi's, who use the intelligence that they are born with.

Some prefer, like you, to follow blindly .. including the mistakes.

Go to a Salafi mosque [ they are all over the world, including Saudi ], and ask them about it.

You won't listen to the top scholars in Saudi?
I wonder why !

 

[KWED]

Well, let me think about it for a minute.
Should I believe all the most prominent Islamic scholars who all agree that the waiting period for divorce FOR YOUNG WOMEN WHO HAVE NOT YET REACHED THE MENSTRUATION YEARS is three months?
Or should I believe in muhammad_isa whose credentials in the study of Islam are UNKNOWN?
Yes, that's a difficult decision, I'll have to give it some time.

I don't expect many Muslims to agree with me.
You are indoctrinated and as Muslims, your job is to defend Islam even when you think is wrong.

I don't have any options. I grew up in the west and my best sources of Islam are the Quran, Hadith, Tafsir and Scholars' versions of the Tafsir.

This is the thing. Those scholars were nearly all writing many centuries ago. They were not trying to defend or justify the Quran or Muhammad's actions in the context of modern, liberal western morality. They were simply explaining it as they saw best, given their decades of study and research, under other pious Islamic scholars. There was no agenda other than the glory of Allah and love of the prophet.

 

[KWED]

Surely, if these English translations of historical scholars are right about the issue of implied underage intercourse, then the majority of Muslims should follow it.

No. In fact you shouldn't follow it, or anything else in the Quran and sunnah if it offends your personal morality.

If you want to think badly of Islam, you will, regardless of any rational explanation.

Unlike many religionists, sceptics tend to base their position on evidence and rational argument. My position on Islam is based o what I have read in the Quran, sunnah and tafsir. Unlike yourself, I have no preconceived beliefs that require validating or defending. If you can provide several authoritative scholars who clearly explain that it does not mean those too young to have menstruated yet, I will examine them and alter my position accordingly. However, you have already stated that you are absolutely certain of your position and nothing will change your mind.
So, whose position is the more reasonable and honest?

 

[KWED]

The only reason to think bad about Islam is by knowing there are Muslims doing bad things.

No. That is reason to think badly of those individuals.
Thinking badly of Islam rests on the content of the ideology, what is written in its texts.
It it can be shown that Islam was the cause or motivation for a person's behaviour, then the connection can be made between the ideology and the person's behaviour.

For example, if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim over a drug deal, then that is not showing Islam in a bad light.
But if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim citing specific passages from the Quran and sunnah that fit the context, then that is showing Islam in a bad light.

 

[KWED]

Translations / interpretations of Qur'an you mean?

I'll leave it to @RAYYAN

Seriously? You keep repeating that but it is a meaningless argument.
The scholars who came up with that explanation were all working in Arabic.
Also, are you really saying that any translation or tafsir is necessarily wrong? You do realise that the vast majority of the world's Muslims only use translated material. Do you dismiss all their beliefs as wrong?
You don't speak classical Arabic. You read a translation of the Quran! So why should anyone listen to your opinions on Islam?

 

[KWED]

I don't reject them..
Like scientists who have theories, I inspect the various things that they are saying, and use my intelligence.

I know why you don't use your intelligence, in this particular case.
You want to "play" the "reputable scholar" card.

It is much the same as quoting that Einstein must be right about everything, when we know that he wasn't.

It is further muddied by the fact that the majority of "these scholars" did not speak English.

Yet again, a straw man.

There is a passage in the Quran that is unclear.
We are constantly told that we need a tafsir to fully understand the Quran because Classical Arabic contains nuance, subtlety and multiple meanings that only a fluent native speaker can understand.
So we consult several tafsir from Arabic speaking scholars.
They all say that the passage means X.
You reply that it doesn't mean X.
You say you "use your intelligence" to analyse the passage and assess the scholars opinions but you can't present any scholarly support from your claim. You merely do some vague handwaving about "but translation!"

So, for one last time, what is the actual reason for rejecting those scholars' opinions. Present an argument, with scholarly support, that the passage does not refer to those too young to have begun menstruation.

(Note: I understand that you do not think it refers to that, but I am looking for something that validates your opinion)

 

[KWED]

Yeah .. that's what lots of "classical Muslims" say about the Salafi's, who use the intelligence that they are born with.
Some prefer, like you, to follow blindly .. including the mistakes.
Go to a Salafi mosque [ they are all over the world, including Saudi ], and ask them about it.
You won't listen to the top scholars in Saudi?
I wonder why !

I will listen to the opinion of any scholars. It all helps to build an overall picture.
Here is the opinion of a top Saudi Salafi scholar...

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry. Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses? - Islam Question & Answer

 

[muhammad_isa]

I will listen to the opinion of any scholars. It all helps to build an overall picture.
Here is the opinion of a top Saudi Salafi scholar...

In this verse we see that Allaah states that for those who do not menstruate – because they are young and have not yet reached the age of puberty – the ‘iddah in the case of divorce is three months. This clearly indicates that it is permissible for a young girl who has not started her periods to marry. Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses? - Islam Question & Answer

It's possible to find whatever you want to promote. on the internet.
He is a salafi scholar, I would agree.
[not licensed by Saudi]

What a shame. This particular subject seems to be a source of confusion.
What is the difference between a woman and a child?

..and don't forget .. forced marriages are not allowed by Allah SWT in the Qur'an.
If a father forces a girl to marry against her will, he will be questioned about it on the day of judgement.

 

[KWED]

It's possible to find whatever you want to promote. on the internet.
He is a salafi scholar, I would agree.
[not licensed by Saudi]

What a shame. This particular subject seems to be a source of confusion.
What is the difference between a woman and a child?

..and don't forget .. forced marriages are not allowed by Allah SWT in the Qur'an.
If a father forces a girl to marry against her will, he will be questioned about it on the day of judgement.

So we are agreed that the general consensus amongst scholars of all stripes is that the passage is referring to those too young to have started menstruation?

Still happy to look at different opinions though.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So we are agreed that the general consensus amongst scholars of all stripes is that the passage is referring to those too young to have started menstruation?

Still happy to look at different opinions though.

You are like a steam-roller.
No, we are not agreed.

However, it would seem that a majority of Muslims believe that it is OK to marry women at any age, if they have permission from the bride [ and guardian, if any ]

I am not "a scholar", as you know.
..but I am a Muslim father of 6 daughters, and I would not have agreed to them being married until they were young women.

Actually, I had the opposite problem. They didn't get married until their 20's

You won't convince me that Islam is flawed in some way.
I see that it is not.

Shouting "paedophile" etc. I just see as inclination to disbelief.
Naturally, satan does his works, and I do mine .. I do not womanise.
Pious Muslims don't.

They get married and take responsibility.

 

[RAYYAN]

Ironically, in Islam, a "child" becomes a "woman" when she has her first period.
Girls usually have their first period around 9-12, but it can be as young as 7 or 8. Do you really think that sex with girls (sorry, "women") of that age is morally acceptable, in principle?

Here is what I said
"For me, it is simple. The word used in the verse is Women, not children. Period"

The verse said "Women" I didn't mention any age. The extra words is you putting words into my mouth. Shame on you

 

[Raymann]

Raymann said: ↑
The only reason to think bad about Islam is by knowing there are Muslims doing bad things.

No. That is reason to think badly of those individuals.
Thinking badly of Islam rests on the content of the ideology, what is written in its texts.
It it can be shown that Islam was the cause or motivation for a person's behaviour, then the connection can be made between the ideology and the person's behaviour.

So you're saying that it depends, ok good point but the second part of your statement is what usually tells that there is a problem.
In this case, as we understand it today.
Islam doesn't oppose UNDERAGE MARRIAGE.
Knowing that we cannot condemn prophet Mohammad of pedophilia under the rules of Shariah.
We do condemn him under most modern western rules.
But we can definitely condemn Islam as the source that led prophet Mohammad and probably thousands or millions of cases of pedophilia.
Do you condemn the teacher or the student?

 

[RAYYAN]

The principle of the timeless, infallible and universal guide/example would suggest otherwise.

I don't understand what that means!

No were isn't. Islamic laws or morality are not culturally or historically relative.

You are wrong, Islamic law can change as long as it doesn't contradict morality

Where does it say that in the Quran or Sunnah?

Isn't this understood?
"Fiqh is often described as the human understanding and practices of the sharia,[3] that is human understanding of the divine Islamic law as revealed in the Quran and the Sunnah (the teachings and practices of the Islamic prophet Muhammad and his companions). Fiqh expands and develops Shariah through interpretation (ijtihad) of the Quran and Sunnah by Islamic jurists (ulama)[3] and is implemented by the rulings (fatwa) of jurists on questions presented to them. Thus, whereas sharia is considered immutable and infallible by Muslims, fiqh is considered fallible and changeable. Fiqh deals with the observance of rituals, morals and social legislation in Islam as well as political system" Source

Ah. So things that are specifically permitted or forbidden still stand. So crucifixion, dismemberment, flogging for unmarried consensual adult sex. Slavery. Using female captives for slaves. Those are all acceptable today.
Yikes!

As I said before, the punishment still stands, but the method might be different.
What you fail to understand is. All punishments in Islam are applied to Muslims, in an Islamic state, and to people who live under Islamic rule

Exactly! As no age was specified you can only go on interpretations. Although A specific age is mentioned for Muhammad's marriage to Aisha - 6. And as he is the perfect role model for all Muslims, then 6 must be an acceptable age. Obviously it is not compulsory, but it is not forbidden.

The marriage age in Islam is when a woman reaches the age of marriage, she is capable to be married, and it is socially acceptable to be married at that age. If you through numbers here and there to deceive the reader, it doesn't make what you say right

TBH, I'm getting fed up with having to explain how analogies work to people.
And you brought up the age of leaders in battle in the US. Just read it through again a few times, and really try to think about it.

Fancy words to avoid the answer - Got it

So why did you bring it up?

To show you that you can't dictate the age of marriage to people who lived thousands of years before your time. they have their own age of marriage.
But, of course, you changed the subject later because you can't respond to that, and made it about Mohammed, not others LOL

I agree. And have already said as much, but you don't seem to be able to understand the key difference.
None of the people involved in any of that are revered by Muslims as the perfect moral and practical example for all mankind. He is the ultimate role model that all Muslims aspire to emulate.
Or maybe you do understand and are ignoring it because you realise the implications.
Either way, not a good look.

Thank you for agreeing
However, Yes, I understand your point. I asked a question that you didn't answer. I ask again

Do you want Muhammed PBUH to follow 2022 social norms while he lived 1400 years ago?

You ignored it again because you didn't deal with the issue of Muhammad's perfect, timeless, universal example.

I don't mean to ignore it
If Mohammed married a woman who reached the age of marriage and was acceptable by society at that time, I have no problem with that. I don't hold Mohammed up to the standards of 2022, I hold him to the standards of his own time

You seem reluctant to both say what age she was, and to show your source for that claim.

That was my conclusion of mine, how can I show you a source?

So you don't believe he is the ultimate moral and practical role model for all Muslims then?

Of course, I do believe

What are you on about? You have it completely the wrong way round.
Muhammad lived by the standards of 7th century Arabia. Through Allah's divine, infallible, objective morality, revealed through Muhammad, Islam fixed those standards forever. According to Islam, everyone in 21st century Europe should be living by the morals of 7th century Islam.

You got it all wrong
See my Wikipedia quote and how rules can be changable in Islam

So regarding Muhammad's example of marrying a 6 year old, you wouldn't do it because it's against the law, but you think the law is wrong because if Muhammad did it, it can't be morally wrong in the eyes or Allah.
Get it?

No, you didn't get it - Stop using my style LOL
Again, with throwing numbers here and there. Getting old

What I am saying is, Mohammed did what was acceptable socially at that time. If Mohammed was alive today, He will do what is acceptable in 2022

You've lost me there.

So you don't thin six years old is "a child". Yikes!

The only thing we know about Aisha is, She was married to the Prophet, and she was a scholar. at what age she got married, that is just people's say and we can't be sure

No. The accounts suggest that he married her before she reached puberty, which is probably why he waited until she was 9 before having sex with her.

That is just what others say, they are humans, and there is nothing sure. (I am not denying or approving) but, let's think about it logically,

Before she was engaged to the prophet, she was engaged to someone else. If she got engaged to the prophet at age of 6.
- Does it mean that her first engagement was 5 or 4?
- Where is the golden rule in Islam that says the woman must agree before marriage?
- At age of 4 or 5 she can't really make that decision
The whole thing doesn't make sense

And again, you avoid the issue of him being the prefect role model for all humanity. So it to was perfectly fine then, it is perfectly fine all places and all times.
(And of course, you will studiously avoid addressing this issue yet again).

I addressed that above. If you don't like the answer, it doesn't mean I have no addressed it

 

[RAYYAN]

100% of the several scholars I quoted held that opinion.

Of course, it is 100% of the scholars you wanted to quote LOL
Self service evidence

 

[muhammad_isa]

Islam doesn't oppose UNDERAGE MARRIAGE.

People hold different positions on the topic..

Here is an article in the Guardian newspaer that says the deputy grand imam of al-Azhar has issued a fatwa against child marriage, saying marriage should be based on the consent of both parties and “particularly the young woman”.
Senior Islamic cleric issues fatwa against child marriage

“Marriage in Islam is based on the consent of both parties, particularly the young woman. Such consent requires the young woman to have reached the age of maturity and reason, so that her consent is validly given,” the fatwa read, adding that this age was 18, and quoting parts of the Qur’an and the hadiths of the prophet Muhammad to support it.

Islam teaches that that people should follow the law prescribed by the nation you live in, unless it contradicts that which is prohibited by God.

 

[KWED]

I don't reject them..

That's what it looks like.

Like scientists who have theories, I inspect the various things that they are saying, and use my intelligence.

That's not how science works. We devise experiments to test hypotheses. Those tests must be repeatable, and we should be able to make predictions as to other results based on those.
You are talking about forming an opinion.

I know why you don't use your intelligence, in this particular case.
You want to "play" the "reputable scholar" card.

Yes. I have many times been told that I don't have the qualifications nor experience to interpret the Quran myself and must defer to the expertise of authoritative Islamic scholars (I question the reality of this but accept it for arguments' sake).
Having followed this advice, I find that the consensus is that the passage is referring to those too young to have menstruated.
You disagree. I therefore invited to follow the rules I have been playing by and provide several authoritative scholars who say otherwise.
Thus far you have only provided your own personal opinion, which is not allowed under these rules.

It is much the same as quoting that Einstein must be right about everything, when we know that he wasn't.

No it isn't. It's like two non-scientists arguing about what Einstein meant by a particular passage in one of his books.
I am saying that we should consult other physicists' works on the subject.
You are saying I should just accept your opinion.

It is further muddied by the fact that the majority of "these scholars" did not speak English.

Do you think that all the people who translated these works were so inept that they all mistranslated every reference to "too young", "not yet started menstruating", etc. And not only that, but other bilingual scholars reading it also made the same mistake?
And then there are the hadith that the tafsir are based on that contain references to those too young? All of then are wrong/mistranslated as well?

Sometimes, if you find that whichever expert source you consult on a subject, you are disagreed with, then perhaps you might be wrong rather than all the experts.