isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[Peace]

Excellent post my very dear and beloved sister, Peace. Jazaki Allahu khayran my dear.

Thank you my sweet dear sister
wa anti min alhli al jazaa'!

 

[Peace]

you quote 9:30. i do not believe God would curse Christians for saying Jesus is God's Son. many places in the Bible, Abu, men are called sons of God, and the Quran is silent on that fact.

Again the Bible is corrupted and you cannot trust at all what is written there.

why would God curse the likes of Saint Francis, Mother Teresa, Desmond Tutu and others, for saying Jesus is His Son? perhaps Muhammad may have wished God's curse upon them, but God has clearly blessed and guided countless Christians in their faith and lives who believe that Jesus is in some true and meaningful way, God's Son.

How come you know that they are blessed and guided, have you visited them in Paradise?

if one knows only about Jesus from the Quran, that is truly not sufficient. you have yet to answer the question- if it's ok for Muslims to ask the Christians and Jews about these messengers, and if they are of course going to look in their own scriptures, why not as a Muslim go to these scriptures to learn more about Jesus? and if the scriptures are so corrupted, why give the green light to refer to them for clarification?

Again give us the proof from the Quran where it is stated that it is ok to refer to the Bible for clarification.

as a Christian, i do not follow Muhammad, nor the Quran. Jesus did not come bearing scripture, but His life. His apostles write about His life, teachings, and death and resurrection in the Gospels. Paul did not write the Gospels- he wrote later letters to early churches. Jesus' apostles wrote the four Gospels, putting to pen the life and teachings of Jesus. i look to Jesus first, to His example, and teachings, and life. i do trust the Bible to read about Jesus- and while i do realize that yes, the Gospels have been edited in small places here and there, for example the Johanite comma, and having as a Muslim studied Judaic belief, and early church history, i do not call myself a trinitarian Christian- in spite of all of this, i find Jesus a greater, more trustworthy, humble, and Godly messenger, and Lord.

Very complicated and confusing.

notwithstanding, i do trust what the Gospels say about Jesus, and i do trust that when Jesus said that He would send someone ahead of Him, that He was not talking about Muhammad, but about God's Holy Spirit. in fact, the Gosple says exactly that a few sentences later. many Muslims look to the Gospels to support the claims of prophet-hood given by Muhammad, but they do not look further, to scan the actual words and message of Jesus.

You shall know the truth sooner or later.

with all that i have read about Christianity, critical of the faith and of its texts, as a Muslim, i have ultimately come back to the message and person of Jesus. i have decided to follow Him, and in this way, to respect Him. many Muslims would say that by reading the Gospels at all, i do Him a great dis-service. i disagree. i choose to look to the original sources about His life, not words spoken about Him by someone who came centuries later- and while the Quran does say many true things about Jesus- that His followers were compassionate, the He was a humble servant, etc. it ultimately takes the focus off of Him. and if i wish to focus on Him and follow Him, i can not follow the Quran.

As you want, to you your religion and to us ours, Islam.
Excuse me ayani but I cannot help myself from saying “I am really sorry for you!”.

Peace

 

[ayani]

well, i am not sorry, Peace. nor do i feel sorry.

i feel blessed, free, and thankful. if you find my decision to follow in the example and teachings of Jesus Christ confusing, it may be helpful for you to look to the original Gospels themselves, and read what He has done and said. i have read the Quran, after all. as a Muslim, i had taken the time to learn how to read and write Arabic, pray in Arabic, tie a headscarf, etc. could a Muslim not take the time to read the Gospels?

in 5:47 of the Quran, the Quran asks Christians to judge by the Gospels (the scripture they already possess). ok. if that is permissible, for a Christian to judge the Quran based upon the Gospels, then surely the Gospels must be clear enough to draw guidance, truth, and judgment from. in 5:71 it asks the Jews and Christians to stand fast by their own scriptures, before then asking them to trust the Quran. but how can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Torah and the Gospel, if the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated?

and why would a Christian stand up for the Quran, when it says things contradicting Jesus' teachings and example to His disciples as found within the Gospels, Gospels which Christians are asked to read and adhere to?

10:94 gives Muslims permission to ask the Jews and Christians about their faiths, if they doubt the Quran. and if one asks a Jew or Christian, naturally that Jew or Christian will go to the Torah, or to the Bible. if that is ok and if the Quran tells Muslims to *ask*, how truly corrupt could these scriptures be, if God is asking Muslims to ask Jews and Christians what their own texts say?

as i have pointed out, there are clear differences between Jesus life and teachings, and Muhammad's life and teachings. Muhammad, in his teachings through the Quran (which i think everyone would agree he taught to his followers, regardless of where we believe it originated), and in his life's example. therefor, for a Christian, Muhammad can not confirm the Gospels if he acts or teaches in ways that are contrary to Jesus' teachings and living example.

i have found the way to God through Jesus, His Son. through His living example, teachings, and the promises He has fulfilled. i do feel peaceful, and having come from Islam to Christ, and having studied the Quran, and now studying the Gospels, i feel that, by God's grace, i am making the right decision, day by day.

 

[Scott1]

i feel blessed, free, and thankful.

Amen sister!

“I am the way, the truth and the life” (John 14:6)

 

[ayani]

there are other glaring contradictions between Christianity and Islam i would like to point out. for some they may sound small, but if the Quran is truly from God, the same God who is omniscient and the God of Jews and Christians and all peoples, they beg attention.

look at 9:111 in the Quran.
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

however, no where in Jesus' message in the Gospels does He bind His followers in a covenant that involves slaying. on the contrary, by His own example, He did not even fight to save His own life, knowing that God would raise Him up again, going to the cross in obedience to God's will. if Christians are to be Christ-like, we must do the same in selflessness and humility. so clearly there's a contradiction here- no where in the Gospels does it command anyone to slay anyone else. Jesus prophesies about persecution, division, conflict, and death for His name- but it is Christians who will suffer, not who will cause the suffering.

also, look closely at 5:73 in the Quran. here is what is says :

Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, Allah is the third of a trinity" - seeing that there is no deity whatever save the One Allah. And unless they desist from this their assertion, grievous suffering is bound to befall such of them as are bent on denying the truth.

throughout the Quran, the Christian claim that Jesus is God is firmly rejected, to the point of calling down God's curse upon Christians who believe in this. (9:30) it is only the Christian belief that Jesus is God which is condemned or even referred to- while the trinity is mentioned, the Quran is completely silent on the specific issue of God's Holy Spirit being referred to as a person of the trinity. so the "third of three" here must refer to Jesus being set up as a partner to God, the only such "blasphemy" the Quran repeatedly acknowledges in reference to the trinity, or to the deification of Christ.

however, any Christian can tell you that Jesus is the second, not the third person of the trinity. this verse "should" read "Behold, God is the second of three", in order to accurately refer to trinitarian Christians' beliefs about Jesus.

it begs the question, wouldn't God know what His own people believe about Him, whether this belief is true or not? why the error? why would God blunder the specifics of trinitarian belief?

 

[3.14]

I'm reminded one of the avatars MidnightBlue had for a while: "Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite."

i saw another one of those it said
jesus might love you, but he's screwing me
and
jesus love you when you screw him

 

[TashaN]

could a Muslim not take the time to read the Gospels?

Dear ayani, you are still not getting the point. When a prophet comes from Allah, people must follow him. If Isa came while Moses was still alive, Moses would have followed Isa, and Isa was on earth when Mohammed was sent to the worlds, Isa would have followed Mohammed for certain. So, it doesn't matter whether we had a look in the so called gospel today or not, because the Quran is already there, and Mohammed "peace be upon him" has delivered the message.

in 5:47 of the Quran, the Quran asks Christians to judge by the Gospels (the scripture they already possess). ok. if that is permissible, for a Christian to judge the Quran based upon the Gospels, then surely the Gospels must be clear enough to draw guidance, truth, and judgment from. in 5:71 it asks the Jews and Christians to stand fast by their own scriptures, before then asking them to trust the Quran. but how can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Torah and the Gospel, if the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated?

Please ayani, you know better than me that the bible has been chanaging regularly since ever it existed, so it's impossible that the gospel you have today is the same as before. Not to mention the so many different kind of bibles many sects do have today.

and why would a Christian stand up for the Quran, when it says things contradicting Jesus' teachings and example to His disciples as found within the Gospels, Gospels which Christians are asked to read and adhere to?

Because the gospel has changed and been compiled in what people call today, the holy bible.

10:94 gives Muslims permission to ask the Jews and Christians about their faiths, if they doubt the Quran. and if one asks a Jew or Christian, naturally that Jew or Christian will go to the Torah, or to the Bible. if that is ok and if the Quran tells Muslims to *ask*, how truly corrupt could these scriptures be, if God is asking Muslims to ask Jews and Christians what their own texts say?

I answered that already.

as i have pointed out, there are clear differences between Jesus life and teachings, and Muhammad's life and teachings. Muhammad, in his teachings through the Quran (which i think everyone would agree he taught to his followers, regardless of where we believe it originated), and in his life's example. therefor, for a Christian, Muhammad can not confirm the Gospels if he acts or teaches in ways that are contrary to Jesus' teachings and living example.

Mohammed never taught against Allah\s teaching, and you don't know what Isa has taught, because not all what they say about him is true.

Nevertheless, the gospel today still hold some true, and you can check it out in this link below, so read it please:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/19750-mohamed-pbuh-bible.html

i have found the way to God through Jesus, His Son. through His living example, teachings, and the promises He has fulfilled. i do feel peaceful, and having come from Islam to Christ, and having studied the Quran, and now studying the Gospels, i feel that, by God's grace, i am making the right decision, day by day.

This life is a journey, and i hope we all will end making the right choices in our lives at the end, to be happy in this life, and the hereafter insha'Allah.

 

[TashaN]

however, no where in Jesus' message in the Gospels does He bind His followers in a covenant that involves slaying. on the contrary, by His own example, He did not even fight to save His own life

I think you need to study the bible more, for Isa "peace be upon him" has decleared the Jihad in his own life time.

Read with me ...

1- "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:35-36

* Jesus was preparing his followers for a battle.

2- ". . . Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".
(HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:38

3- "And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."
(HOLY BIBLE) Matthew 26:51

* The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

4- "Judas then, having received a BAND OF MEN1 and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh there with lanterns and torches and weapons"
(HOLY BIBLE) John 18:3

1. "Band of men": here and in verse 12 following, the words in the so-called original manuscripts are speira and chiliarchos respectively. Both Roman military terms, meaning "cohort" and "tribune". "That John is the first Evangelist to mention Roman soldiers among the party which went out to arrest our Lord . . ." See Knox's — "A New Testament Commentary", page 260.

5-". . . Master, shall we smite them with the sword?" (HOLY BIBLE) Luke 22:49
From my post in another thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/18363-jesus-did-not-die.html#post212243

For more information about prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" and the his story with the SWORD, please refer to this thread below:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/39491-muhammads-sword.html

knowing that God would raise Him up again, going to the cross in obedience to God's will.

Well, not excatly. He REFUSED to go to the cross and he fought it and cried loud for Allah's help for what those people are doing to him.

also, look closely at 5:73 in the Quran. here is what is says :

Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, Allah is the third of a trinity" - seeing that there is no deity whatever save the One Allah. And unless they desist from this their assertion, grievous suffering is bound to befall such of them as are bent on denying the truth.

throughout the Quran, the Christian claim that Jesus is God is firmly rejected, to the point of calling down God's curse upon Christians who believe in this. (9:30) it is only the Christian belief that Jesus is God which is condemned or even referred to- while the trinity is mentioned, the Quran is completely silent on the specific issue of God's Holy Spirit being referred to as a person of the trinity. so the "third of three" here must refer to Jesus being set up as a partner to God, the only such "blasphemy" the Quran repeatedly acknowledges in reference to the trinity, or to the deification of Christ.

however, any Christian can tell you that Jesus is the second, not the third person of the trinity. this verse "should" read "Behold, God is the second of three", in order to accurately refer to trinitarian Christians' beliefs about Jesus.

The verse is saying clearly that those who say Allah is one of the three gods are kuffar, for Allah is only one.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

I'm just wondering: if Allah is one and infinite, how can there be me and Allah? For if I exist apart from Allah, Allah is less than infinite--and therefore less than the God I love and worship.

Oh, and if Allah is truly infinite and I am therefore a part of Allah, what can you do me that is not also done unto Allah?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Rolling Stone,

Oh, and if Allah is truly infinite and I am therefore a part of Allah, what can you do me that is not also done unto Allah?

This is exactly what all religions lead us to.
Nut for that one has to be a realised or enlightened individual like Jesus, Mohammud, Buddha etc.
Problem is in interpretations.
Jesus when he says: *Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.* He knows that there is no seperate identify for the father he talks about BUT then he is addressing people who do not understand or have not evolved to that understanding and they only believe and know of god as someone lvivng in the clouds somewhere. Limitations exists for everyone including Jesus, or any realised person.
Same could have been the situation with Muhammud? Not knowing the full story cannot comment much on that for sure.
love & rgds

 

[TashaN]

I'm just wondering: if Allah is one and infinite, how can there be me and Allah? For if I exist apart from Allah, Allah is less than infinite--and therefore less than the God I love and worship.

Oh, and if Allah is truly infinite and I am therefore a part of Allah, what can you do me that is not also done unto Allah?

Allah gave us his describtion and attributes already in the Quran, so no need to say about Him what we don't know for certain.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

[1] Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;

[2] Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

[3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

[4] And there is none like unto Him.

(Quran 112:1)

 

[Peace]

well, i am not sorry, Peace. nor do i feel sorry

I know you are not sorry that’s very clear! But I was speaking of what I felt for you and there shall come a time when you will know why I felt sorry for you.

if you find my decision to follow in the example and teachings of Jesus Christ confusing, it may be helpful for you to look to the original Gospels themselves, and read what He has done and said

If I read the Gospels it would be only to know how to debate with Christians and not for searching the truth, for the truth is very clear in my holy book the Quran.

i have read the Quran, after all. as a Muslim, i had taken the time to learn how to read and write Arabic, pray in Arabic, tie a headscarf, etc. could a Muslim not take the time to read the Gospels?

For what purpose? When we read it, it doesn’t make sense to us, it doesn’t affect us because the words of Allah had been corrupted by men. On the contrary while reading the Quran, the heart and soul find peace and ecstasy, for what we read are the unchanged words of our Lord and Creator.

in 5:47 of the Quran, the Quran asks Christians to judge by the Gospels (the scripture they already possess).

That’s a clear sign that there is no compulsion in Islam. Since they are Christians or Jews they should judge among themselves by what they believe in.

ok. if that is permissible, for a Christian to judge the Quran based upon the Gospels, then surely the Gospels must be clear enough to draw guidance, truth, and judgment from.

No, not clear enough but there are some facts that agree with the Quran.

in 5:71 it asks the Jews and Christians to stand fast by their own scriptures, before then asking them to trust the Quran. but how can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Torah and the Gospel, if the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated?

In 5:71 Allah says: “They (speaking about the children of Israel) thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment), so they became blind and deaf; after that Allâh turned to them (with Forgiveness); yet again many of them became blind and deaf. And Allâh is the All-Seer of what they do.”

and why would a Christian stand up for the Quran, when it says things contradicting Jesus' teachings and example to His disciples as found within the Gospels, Gospels which Christians are asked to read and adhere to?

They should obey God and believe in His Prophet (Muhammad peace be upon him) as it is stated in their scriptures. Prophet Jesus peace be upon him won't be pleased with those who follow corrupted scriptures and haven't obeyed God by following His last Prophet. Prophet Jesus pbuh will come at the end of times as a Muslim follower of Islam bearing witness that there is no God but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.

10:94 gives Muslims permission to ask the Jews and Christians about their faiths, if they doubt the Quran. and if one asks a Jew or Christian, naturally that Jew or Christian will go to the Torah, or to the Bible. if that is ok and if the Quran tells Muslims to *ask*, how truly corrupt could these scriptures be, if God is asking Muslims to ask Jews and Christians what their own texts say?

10:94.So if you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, [i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], then ask those who are reading the Book [the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).

as i have pointed out, there are clear differences between Jesus life and teachings, and Muhammad's life and teachings. Muhammad, in his teachings through the Quran (which i think everyone would agree he taught to his followers, regardless of where we believe it originated), and in his life's example. therefor, for a Christian, Muhammad can not confirm the Gospels if he acts or teaches in ways that are contrary to Jesus' teachings and living example.

And do you really know what’s the teaching of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him? You don’t know everything about him.

 

[Peace]

there are other glaring contradictions between Christianity and Islam i would like to point out. for some they may sound small, but if the Quran is truly from God, the same God who is omniscient and the God of Jews and Christians and all peoples, they beg attention.

look at 9:111 in the Quran.
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

however, no where in Jesus' message in the Gospels does He bind His followers in a covenant that involves slaying. on the contrary, by His own example, He did not even fight to save His own life, knowing that God would raise Him up again, going to the cross in obedience to God's will.

Not true. Allah is one and his message is one.

if Christians are to be Christ-like, we must do the same in selflessness and humility. so clearly there's a contradiction here- no where in the Gospels does it command anyone to slay anyone else. Jesus prophesies about persecution, division, conflict, and death for His name- but it is Christians who will suffer, not who will cause the suffering.

You do believe in corrupted Gospels.

also, look closely at 5:73 in the Quran. here is what is says :

Indeed, the truth deny they who say, "Behold, Allah is the third of a trinity" - seeing that there is no deity whatever save the One Allah. And unless they desist from this their assertion, grievous suffering is bound to befall such of them as are bent on denying the truth.

throughout the Quran, the Christian claim that Jesus is God is firmly rejected, to the point of calling down God's curse upon Christians who believe in this. (9:30) it is only the Christian belief that Jesus is God which is condemned or even referred to- while the trinity is mentioned, the Quran is completely silent on the specific issue of God's Holy Spirit being referred to as a person of the trinity. so the "third of three" here must refer to Jesus being set up as a partner to God, the only such "blasphemy" the Quran repeatedly acknowledges in reference to the trinity, or to the deification of Christ.

however, any Christian can tell you that Jesus is the second, not the third person of the trinity. this verse "should" read "Behold, God is the second of three", in order to accurately refer to trinitarian Christians' beliefs about Jesus.

You are doing here your own interpretation. You are considering Jesus as god may God forbid. Did Allah say that Jesus is the third of three; God is speaking about Himself saying He is considered by the Christians as three. You are just confusing things here ayani.


5:65.And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad ) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allâh) and had become Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - See V.2:2) We would indeed have expiated from them their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).

5:66. And if only they had acted according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to them from their Lord (the Qur’ân), they would surely have gotten provision from above them and from underneath their feet. There are from among them people who are on the right course (i.e. they act on the revelation and believe in Prophet Muhammad), but many of them do evil deeds.

5:67. O Messenger (Muhammad)! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allâh will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allâh guides not the people who disbelieve.

5:68. Say (O Muhammad ) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur’ân)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad ) from your Lord increases in most of them (their) obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve.

 

[ayani]

Peace, here is what i believe.

i believe that the Gospels speak truths about Jesus. now, the Quran may also say some true things about Jesus- but the Quran also gives advice and commandments which, for a Christian, are very un-Christ-like.

i think it's such a pity that a Muslim will not even glance at the Gospels... not even a scan. "they are corrupted!" a Christian who becomes a Muslim will learn Arabic, to read and write it, to speak it, to wash, to pray... yet a Muslim will not so much as glance at the scriptures held to be sacred and meaningful for a Christian. you did not answer my questions, about the validity of reading the Gospel accounts of Jesus' life being ok in the Quran, if they are really corrupted beyond being valuable or meaningful.

i really do see a huge difference between following Jesus and following Muhammad. i do not believe that Jesus would have approved of many of Muhammad's campaigns, actions, attitudes, or teachings. how does one begin to compare? well, one must fist be willing to compare Gospels and the Quran and hadith. if one is not even willing to do that... then one remains, by definition, ignorant of half the story.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Friend Rolling Stone,


This is exactly what all religions lead us to.
Nut for that one has to be a realised or enlightened individual like Jesus, Mohammud, Buddha etc.
Problem is in interpretations.
Jesus when he says: *Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.* He knows that there is no seperate identify for the father he talks about BUT then he is addressing people who do not understand or have not evolved to that understanding and they only believe and know of god as someone lvivng in the clouds somewhere. Limitations exists for everyone including Jesus, or any realised person.
Same could have been the situation with Muhammud? Not knowing the full story cannot comment much on that for sure.
love & rgds

No argument from me. I was just trying to show the inconsistency of taking up the sword in the name of an infinite God. For the most part, the West outgrew its fetish (the Bible), but in doing so, lost the underlying message. Islam should take it upon itself to remind the world of the living God while understanding that they will never succeed by using the sword, seeing them as "infidils," or bullying people by hitting them over the head with their fetish, the Koran.

 

[YmirGF]

I think you need to study the bible more, for Isa "peace be upon him" has decleared the Jihad in his own life time.

And I rather expect, my friend, that you are play foot loose and and fancy free with the text, as given. You are committing the same error that Muslims often acuse non-Muslims of doing and that is taking a quite, out of context, and merrily wending your way to the wrong conclusion. You amusing assertion that the Christ called for Jihad is almost the definition of absurdity.

1- "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing" Then said he unto them, "But now, he that hath no purse, let him take it, and likewise his bag; and he that hath no SWORD, let him sell his garment and buy one!"

* Jesus was preparing his followers for a battle.

Actually he wasn't. You have to remember that the follower is now naked and has only a sword. I rather expect he was not meaning a literal sword as people often spoke in riddles in that era, and not directly, as we do today. Conveniently you left out the very next verse which reads:

"For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished by me (meaning his crucifixtion), And he (the one who buys the sword) was reckoned among the transgressors for the things concerning me have an end."

"And they said, Lord, behold, here are two SWORDS." And he said unto them, "It is enough".

Um... Abu, how can you claim that two swords is enough to start a Jihad. Christ himself is indicating that they do not need more swords, hence, "It is enough." I rather expect it would be a short-lived Jihad with two armed people against legions. Considering the following verses, you submission that this is about Jihad is patently absurd and amounts to Islamic wishful thinking.

O' Abu, you are a naughty boy. May Allah forgive your conscious transgression of faking the facts to bolster you rediculous argument.

"And, behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his SWORD, and struck a servant of the high priests, and cut off his ear."

* The only purpose of swords or guns is to maim and to kill. People did not carry swords to pare apples and bananas in the time of Christ.

That is true, Abu, but you quite purposely left out the best part which was the response of Jesus to this brutish act.

Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up thy sword into his (its, really) place: for all they that take the sword will perish with (by) the sword."

I guess "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] chose to ignore this part and you are just being a good Muslim in emulating his lead.

See Knox's — "A New Testament Commentary", page 260][/I]"Judas then, having received a BAND OF MEN1 and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh there with lanterns and torches and weapons"

1. "Band of men": here and in verse 12 following, the words in the so-called original manuscripts are speira and chiliarchos respectively. Both Roman military terms, meaning "cohort" and "tribune". "That John is the first Evangelist to mention Roman soldiers among the party which went out to arrest our Lord . . ."

This doesn't support your assertion in the slightest, Abu! Are we actually supposed to take you seriously?

". . . Master, shall we smite them with the sword?"

I think you have proven quite well, that one can make whatever argument they wish, with references, when one takes things directly out of the context that the text was given in. Is this a way of showing respect for "Isa"? How fascinating is that?

For more information about prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" and the his story with the SWORD, please refer to this thread below.

Given your absurd rendition of these passages, why on Earth would anyone find you assertions regarding Muhammed to have any credibility?

 

[TashaN]

i believe that the Gospels speak truths about Jesus. now, the Quran may also say some true things about Jesus- but the Quran also gives atdvice and commandments which, for a Christian, are very un-Christ-like.

Again, this is based on the bible, which has been changing since ever they compiled it, and it will remain changing all over and over and over again. The word of God is there, but we no longer know which is which. That's why Allah said in the Quran:

[47] Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. (Quran 5:47)

Allah didn't say let them judge by the gospel, but with what Allah has revelaed, because not all of what they had at that time was the word of God. Is it clearer to you now?

i think it's such a pity that a Muslim will not even glance at the Gospels... not even a scan. "they are corrupted!" a Christian who becomes a Muslim will learn Arabic, to read and write it, to speak it, to wash, to pray... yet a Muslim will not so much as glance at the scriptures held to be sacred and meaningful for a Christian. you did not answer my questions, about the validity of reading the Gospel accounts of Jesus' life being ok in the Quran, if they are really corrupted beyond being valuable or meaningful.

I'll post the verses here and please remind me if i missed any.

First of all, do you know why the muslims are not required to read the gospel?

Because ...

[48] To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have We prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you; so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Quran 5:48)

Prophet Mohammed was asked to judge with what Allah has revleaed to him, the Quran, because Allah has given a certain task for each prophet, and once the new prophet comes, everybody should follow the new law which he came with.

If you disagree with me, tell me why don't Isa follow *excatly* what Moses, Solomon, Abraham, Noah, etc?

Or it's just like what Allah described in the Quran?

[113] The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon"; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (to stand) upon." Yet they (profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. (Quran 2:113)

Same BOOK? the same BOOK!!!

Then how come you come and argue with me using TWO DIFFERENT books?!

The other verse is number 94.

[93] We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling place, and provided for them sustenance of the best; it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.

Allah is telling prophet Mohammed how they have differed ... and ...


[94] If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. (Quran 10:93-94)

Allah is telling Prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him", that he can check with them if he had a doubt that his name was there. That's why i gave you this link to read about Mohammed in the bible.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/19750-mohamed-pbuh-bible.html

Then, Mohammed "peace be upon him" said, I DON'T DOUBT, AND I'LL NEVER ASK.

i really do see a huge difference between following Jesus and following Muhammad. i do not believe that Jesus would have approved of many of Muhammad's campaigns, actions, attitudes, or teachings. how does one begin to compare? well, one must fist be willing to compare Gospels and the Quran and hadith. if one is not even willing to do that... then one remains, by definition, ignorant of half the story.

One would be ignorant of the WHOLE story if he forgot that Isa is nothing but a prophet, like any other prophet.

Look at this beautiful and yet, very powerful verse:

[75] Al-Masih, the son of Maryam, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Quran 5:75)

What Allah is trying to tell us? Isa and his mother were just human beings, who eat, drink, then go to toilet, just like any other human being. Is this the attribute of God?

Is this the God you believe in? human being?

Subhan Allah!

 

[McBell]

Mohammad is NOT mentioned in the Bible, neither directly or indirectly.
I find it rather interesting how some Muslims will go on and on about how the Bible has been changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted/etc. yet then turn to that exact same changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted Bible to support their allegation that Mohammad is mentioned....

Do they not see how asinine their support of both claims actually is?
Or is it that the claim of a changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted/ect Bible is so they can "pick and Choose" what they want from it?

 

[TashaN]

And I rather expect, my friend, that you are play foot loose and and fancy free with the text, as given. You are committing the same error that Muslims often acuse non-Muslims of doing and that is taking a quite, out of context, and merrily wending your way to the wrong conclusion. You amusing assertion that the Christ called for Jihad is almost the definition of absurdity.




Actually he wasn't. You have to remember that the follower is now naked and has only a sword. I rather expect he was not meaning a literal sword as people often spoke in riddles in that era, and not directly, as we do today. Conveniently you left out the very next verse which reads:

Um... Abu, how can you claim that two swords is enough to start a Jihad. Christ himself is indicating that they do not need more swords, hence, "It is enough." I rather expect it would be a short-lived Jihad with two armed people against legions. Considering the following verses, you submission that this is about Jihad is patently absurd and amounts to Islamic wishful thinking.

O' Abu, you are a naughty boy. May Allah forgive your conscious transgression of faking the facts to bolster you rediculous argument.
[/color]

That is true, Abu, but you quite purposely left out the best part which was the response of Jesus to this brutish act.

I guess "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] chose to ignore this part and you are just being a good Muslim in emulating his lead.

This doesn't support your assertion in the slightest, Abu! Are we actually supposed to take you seriously?

I think you have proven quite well, that one can make whatever argument they wish, with references, when one takes things directly out of the context that the text was given in. Is this a way of showing respect for "Isa"? How fascinating is that?[/color]

Given your absurd rendition of these passages, why on Earth would anyone find you assertions regarding Muhammed to have any credibility?

Jihad is not a holy war as you might think. Jihad might be to defend yourself, and jihad means to be patient, jihad also means an inner jihad with yourself to stay away from sins, jihad also means that you can go to defend your land. Jihad is NOT holy war.

By the way, at that time, i don't think he meant a *spiritual* sword but a real one which they can cut with it as it was explained in the verses from the bible i have presented.

Also, don't forget that Isa surrendered later on when he noticed there were just too many of them.

Peace.

 

[TashaN]

Mohammad is NOT mentioned in the Bible, neither directly or indirectly.
I find it rather interesting how some Muslims will go on and on about how the Bible has been changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted/etc. yet then turn to that exact same changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted Bible to support their allegation that Mohammad is mentioned....

Do they not see how asinine their support of both claims actually is?
Or is it that the claim of a changed/manipulated/altered/corrupted/ect Bible is so they can "pick and Choose" what they want from it?

Post # 57.

[47] Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. (Quran 5:47)

Allah didn't say let them judge by the gospel, but with what Allah has revelaed, because not all of what they had at that time was the word of God.

It contains:

- the word of God
- the interpretations of what Isa has said or did.
- Paul's stories.
- some unknown writers
- etc?