Pick and choose by referring to the Qur'an i.e. if what in the bible agrees with what in the Qur'an then we don't have a problem with it, if it contradicts what in the Qur'an, then we have a problem with it.
The Qur'an is our reference.
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isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)
- Thread starter yousaf
- Start date
The Qur'an is our reference.
Rolling_Stone
Well-Known Member
Qur'an, as used here = fetish: idolatry.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Didn't God in the Bible do exactly that?......Wasn't it the people who were sinning and God told Noah to build a boat...but said he he was going to kill everything....and actually did? What was the point of killing off these poor animals that no part in the supposed transgressions of humanity.
Genesis 7:4, 22-23
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]One week from today I will begin forty days and forty nights of rain. And I will wipe from the earth all the living things I have created.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]22 Everything died that breathed and lived on dry land.
23 Every living thing on the earth was wiped out--people, animals both large and small, and birds. They were all destroyed,...........
[/FONT]
Sorry for coming in late....but your response caught my attention.
:areyoucra :areyoucra :areyoucra
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
LOL The discussion is about Jesus, not the "god" of the Old Testament which is arguably the basis for the Islamic version of "god". Please try to stay on topic, if it isn't asking too much.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Actually, in its modern context it does mean "holy" war, as well as many other things. Traditionally, if I am not mistaken is refers to struggle and the different attributes that it has derived are contextual.
And soundly exposed as unreasonable via my own posts and quotations which did not fit in with you ill-considered diatribe.By the way, at that time, i don't think he meant a *spiritual* swordbut a real one which they can cut with it as it was explained in the verses from the bible i have presented.
In theory, if "Isa" was a good Muslim he most likely would have got into a pitched battle, regardless. In theory, he had "god" on his side. If he could feed all those people, handling a bunch of soldiers shouldn't be a huge effort.
I am at peace, Abu, and have been for many decades. I hope that Allah grants you peace one day too, hopefully sooner, rather than later. It would be so much easier if you would just admit you are categorically wrong on this issue. It's ok to be wrong, you know. People will think more highly of you if you just admit it and move on.Peace.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I think they are the same word....
Eloah
Allah
I believe they are even written the same, using the same lettering, but in their respective language.
It's all the same semitic language...
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I'm here with ya....and I did apologize for coming in late......
I was just responding to your questions.....
As far as the OP......I don't think it's a valid question....seeing as though it will be an argument that will last for ever with no end and no value (i guess).......
ayani
member
Abu- yes, i believe Jesus was a messenger.
i also believe He is the Living Word- Jesus did not write the Gospels, or the NT. Jesus did not write any religious text, or dictate any religious text. His life was God's message.
and to be His followers, Christians must imitate His life, reflect Him, and reflect God.
Abu, i know the Gospels have been edited- not corrupted, but edited. it is very, very, very easy to learn where there have been phrases added to what passages. any NIV study Bible can let you know that. e.g. "NU text does not contain this phrase". however, that does not diminish from the message and life and narrative of Christ. and truly, the insertions are pretty minute. i know where these additions are, in fact, anyone can easily read or research and see where they are. i know what i believe about Christ, and i do believe that the Gospels speak accurately about Him.
and Abu, He is the point, not the text on paper. pouring over texts doesn't make one holy or illuminated- our lives speak louder than what we can quote, according to Jesus. He is our Living Text, God's Word manifest on earth, to show us the way, the truth, and the life. in Him, in His example of service completely giving all to God, and all to His brothers and sisters.
Jesus did not break the laws of Moses, the ten commandments of God. what He found silly was the traditions that grew up within Judaism- like washing your hands before one ate, such things. and He reasoned, very reasonably, that keeping the sabbath holy, as it were, did not mean one had to suspend reason, practicality, or compassion. which is why He healed on the Jewish sabbath.
honestly, i trust the Gospels much more than the Quran. yes, i know Muslims claim it's been untampered with, is pure, and has come directly from Allah. ok, perhaps. and yes, it says many interesting, compelling, also beautiful things. it has great literary quality, and sounds very beautiful when chanted. but is it from God? what does it say, and does it contradict the Living Text of Jesus' life of prayer, poverty, service, sacrifice, and salvation?
the Quran also, interestingly, extends salvation to Christians. the Quran lambastes Christians for calling Jesus God's Son, yet many people in the Bible have been called sons and daughters of God- the Quran makes no mention of that. i understand the mane issue is setting up Jesus as a partner to God. yet isn't that the case, that the messenger works in partnership with God to convey the message, and that God works with and through the messenger? and why can't God call someone He loves dearly His son or daughter?
i really do believe that Muslims kind of don't understand the Jewish context of the use of the term "God's Son". many Jewish leaders of Jesus' time didn't understand, either, and they tore their clothes in fury, and handed Him over to be killed. David was also called a son of God.
but really, if a man gives His entire life over to God and to serving even the poorest of the poor for God's sake, if He feeds the multitudes with tiny amounts of food, heals the sick with His touch, raises the dead, and speaks true and wonderful words about God's kingdom (yes, all by God's grace and power and glory within Jesus and working through Jesus), is He not deserving of the title "Son of God"?
is taht so terrible, or offensive, causing so much offense as to merit the rejection of the entire New testament scriptures? of the Gospels? of the validity of following Jesus, but not Muhammad?
i also believe He is the Living Word- Jesus did not write the Gospels, or the NT. Jesus did not write any religious text, or dictate any religious text. His life was God's message.
and to be His followers, Christians must imitate His life, reflect Him, and reflect God.
Abu, i know the Gospels have been edited- not corrupted, but edited. it is very, very, very easy to learn where there have been phrases added to what passages. any NIV study Bible can let you know that. e.g. "NU text does not contain this phrase". however, that does not diminish from the message and life and narrative of Christ. and truly, the insertions are pretty minute. i know where these additions are, in fact, anyone can easily read or research and see where they are. i know what i believe about Christ, and i do believe that the Gospels speak accurately about Him.
and Abu, He is the point, not the text on paper. pouring over texts doesn't make one holy or illuminated- our lives speak louder than what we can quote, according to Jesus. He is our Living Text, God's Word manifest on earth, to show us the way, the truth, and the life. in Him, in His example of service completely giving all to God, and all to His brothers and sisters.
Jesus did not break the laws of Moses, the ten commandments of God. what He found silly was the traditions that grew up within Judaism- like washing your hands before one ate, such things. and He reasoned, very reasonably, that keeping the sabbath holy, as it were, did not mean one had to suspend reason, practicality, or compassion. which is why He healed on the Jewish sabbath.
honestly, i trust the Gospels much more than the Quran. yes, i know Muslims claim it's been untampered with, is pure, and has come directly from Allah. ok, perhaps. and yes, it says many interesting, compelling, also beautiful things. it has great literary quality, and sounds very beautiful when chanted. but is it from God? what does it say, and does it contradict the Living Text of Jesus' life of prayer, poverty, service, sacrifice, and salvation?
the Quran also, interestingly, extends salvation to Christians. the Quran lambastes Christians for calling Jesus God's Son, yet many people in the Bible have been called sons and daughters of God- the Quran makes no mention of that. i understand the mane issue is setting up Jesus as a partner to God. yet isn't that the case, that the messenger works in partnership with God to convey the message, and that God works with and through the messenger? and why can't God call someone He loves dearly His son or daughter?
i really do believe that Muslims kind of don't understand the Jewish context of the use of the term "God's Son". many Jewish leaders of Jesus' time didn't understand, either, and they tore their clothes in fury, and handed Him over to be killed. David was also called a son of God.
but really, if a man gives His entire life over to God and to serving even the poorest of the poor for God's sake, if He feeds the multitudes with tiny amounts of food, heals the sick with His touch, raises the dead, and speaks true and wonderful words about God's kingdom (yes, all by God's grace and power and glory within Jesus and working through Jesus), is He not deserving of the title "Son of God"?
is taht so terrible, or offensive, causing so much offense as to merit the rejection of the entire New testament scriptures? of the Gospels? of the validity of following Jesus, but not Muhammad?
McBell
Unbound
Interestingly enough, post 58 is in directly reply to post 57.
To put it simply, Mohammad is not mentioned, directly or indirectly, in the Bible.
Regardless of how you wish to twist the verses around to make it seem as though he is.
McBell
Unbound
Ah, well, that makes sense then.
How would you know if there was something missing?
Why should you believe what Paul says about Isa and he never met him?
Why Christians reject the OT, and yet, can't get rid of it from their biblical studies?
You never met him, but you met those people in chruch who claim that Isa gave them the authority to forgive people and set them free!!!
Excatly, how do you know that it's "according to Jesus", not according to someone who wants people to believe that it was "according to Jesus"?
I don't say it was intentional, but at least, it's just the interpretations, but not the actual words of Isa.
So you mean now that Christians follow ALL what Moses have taught?
How do you know that it's contradicting what Isa taught? i thought you said Isa had no writing and you had no idea of what he did except from what others claimed to see or hear. How can you compare the word of God with the word of human beings?
How do you know that God inspired them to write it?
Why did he inspire different versions of the bible?
If all the prophets of God called sons of God as a sign of being a servants of God "translation thing or whatever" then i have no problem with that, but singling out Isa to be the BEGOTTEN son is the biggest problem.
No ayani. Messengers came "and you know that well" to fight this idea, which is setting partners with Allah.
Disrespectful.
[35] It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (Quran 19:35)
But why for God's sake! i really don't understand. Why insisting in attributing the "son" thing to Isa? why don't you just accept him as a messenger?
Read what Allah says in the above verse about the "son" issue.
[91] No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have Lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! (Quran 23:91)
Got it?
Our faith is incomplete if we didn't believe in ALL the previous scriptures and messengers of Allah, but we are instructed to follow the latest law, book, messenger of Allah, otherwise, we are not accepting Allah himself.
Who we are to question God?
We are NOTHING compared to Allah's greatness, and mercy. May the mercy and love of Allah guide all of our souls.
That's your opinion, and i respect it, but it's just ...
[36] But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against Truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do. (Quran 10:36)
McBell
Unbound
Which furthers the saying:
One mans truth is another mans lie.
Which further demonstrates that truth is subjective, especially religious truth.
McBell
Unbound
Fair enough.I agree. it's either you believe it or reject it.
Now would you please explain the need to attempt to convince those who reject it to accept it?
I don't have the slightest desire to force my beliefs on others. I'm just discussing something came up in *Religious Forum*?
McBell
Unbound
I did not say that you did.
I was merely asking why there is this need.
If you have not said need, then perhaps you cannot answer the question because you have no basis for comparison.
Rolling_Stone
Well-Known Member
LOL! Yes. It's crazy and not a little insulting. But Allah gave you a mind with which to think as well as a revelation. If you let a thousand-year old revelation direct your life, you reject the gift of mind; if you reject revelation, you reject a gift for another age and different circumstances. My oh my, what is a person to do? Cling to a book that may have been appropriate and necessary a thousand years ago, or turn the eyes and ears to God's presence here and now?
You cannot bully people a free people into submission beating them over head with quotes written in a book from a bygone era. The power of the Western fetish is gone forever; isn't it about time Islam grows up? Growing up doesn't mean you have to forget Allah, any more than a child forgets his or her loving parents.