isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[TashaN]

I did not say that you did.
I was merely asking why there is this need.
If you have not said need, then perhaps you cannot answer the question because you have no basis for comparison.

I don't need to convince anybody with what i believe in. I just have to answer the questions asked by others about Islam, that's all.

 

[TashaN]

LOL! Yes. It's crazy and not a little insulting. But Allah gave you a mind with which to think as well as a revelation. If you let a thousand-year old revelation direct your life, you reject the gift of mind; if you reject revelation, you reject a gift for another age and different circumstances. My oh my, what is a person to do? Cling to a book that may have been appropriate and necessary a thousand years ago, or turn the eyes and ears to God's presence here and now?

You cannot bully people a free people into submission beating them over head with quotes written in a book from a bygone era. The power of the Western fetish is gone forever; isn't it about time Islam grows up? Growing up doesn't mean you have to forget Allah, any more than a child forgets his or her loving parents.

Drivel.

 

[Scott1]

How would you know if there was something missing?
Why should you believe what Paul says about Isa and he never met him?
Why Christians reject the OT, and yet, can't get rid of it from their biblical studies?



You never met him, but you met those people in chruch who claim that Isa gave them the authority to forgive people and set them free!!!



Excatly, how do you know that it's "according to Jesus", not according to someone who wants people to believe that it was "according to Jesus"?

I don't say it was intentional, but at least, it's just the interpretations, but not the actual words of Isa.



So you mean now that Christians follow ALL what Moses have taught?



How do you know that it's contradicting what Isa taught? i thought you said Isa had no writing and you had no idea of what he did except from what others claimed to see or hear. How can you compare the word of God with the word of human beings?

How do you know that God inspired them to write it?

Why did he inspire different versions of the bible?



If all the prophets of God called sons of God as a sign of being a servants of God "translation thing or whatever" then i have no problem with that, but singling out Isa to be the BEGOTTEN son is the biggest problem.



No ayani. Messengers came "and you know that well" to fight this idea, which is setting partners with Allah.



Disrespectful.

[35] It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is. (Quran 19:35)



But why for God's sake! i really don't understand. Why insisting in attributing the "son" thing to Isa? why don't you just accept him as a messenger?

Read what Allah says in the above verse about the "son" issue.



[91] No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have Lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him! (Quran 23:91)

Got it?

Our faith is incomplete if we didn't believe in ALL the previous scriptures and messengers of Allah, but we are instructed to follow the latest law, book, messenger of Allah, otherwise, we are not accepting Allah himself.

Who we are to question God?

We are NOTHING compared to Allah's greatness, and mercy. May the mercy and love of Allah guide all of our souls.

Drivel.

 

[UnTheist]

Drivel.

That's Jay's line. You can't use it!

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Drivel.

I expected nothing less from someone who serves not Allah, but a book.

To elevate a book to the status of the literal word of God is to elevate it to the status of God himself and thereby diminish God.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't need to convince anybody with what i believe in. I just have to answer the questions asked by others about Islam, that's all.

Ah, but you are VERY selective about what you choose to answer. When you are shown to be quite mistaken you merrily skip along as if the rebuttal never existed.

Let's recap for the home audience.


Christianity:
1. The majority of all Christians see Jesus as literally "the Word manifested as flesh and blood". This is wholly different from being a mere messenger of God in that Jesus is God. (Detractors often confuse the physical body of Jesus as being the sum total of his being, where in fact "The Christ" is the Spirit within the physical Jesus (as well as within all beings) manifested to the fullest potential, in human terms.)
2. Jesus did not arrive with a book, sought to have his thoughts written down or pen a book himself. There is simply no evidence that he did. The Bible was written a good number of years after he terminated his physical body.
3. Though many point out that the BIble has "remained current" by being extensively rewritten to adjust to society as society grew, the basic meanings and premises have changed very little. Angelllous_Evangellous and a few others could clarifly this far better than I. It might prove to be most amusing in future generations if Jesus Control-A'd the loaves and fishes and then Control-V'd them for each man, woman and child present.

Islam:
1. Jesus was born of a virgin birth, but his father was not Allah and Jesus was not his son.
2. Jesus was a messenger of Allah, second only to Prophet Muhammed [pbuh], who brought with him a book for the early Christians and Jews.
3. Jesus was only a man and all miracles he performed were by the will of Allah.
4. Jesus will return to Earth, flanked by Angels and come to stand behind the al-Mahdi. The Mahdi will ask Jesus to lead them in prayer, but he will decline and ask the Mahdi to deliver the prayers to Allah. The point of Jesus doing this is that his deference to the Mahdi will be a sign to all that they should accept Islam, abanding all other faiths.
5. The Bible has been corrupted by men which precipitated the need for Muhammed to deliver the Qur'an to clarify God's word once and for all time. The Bible is considered accurate only where it agrees with the Qur'an.

So, the bottom line is that Muslims and Christians are essentially at logger heads over the role of Jesus Christ. Since its inception Islam has insisted that Jesus is not God, but simply a human messenger of God. Christians find this assertion to be blasphemy as the premise outlined in Islam is directly opposed to the belief in Jesus Christ as being the Savior of all human kind. Muslims insist that Allah (God) is the only Savior and that he has no partners (or middlemen) even though Muslims are implored to accept Allah as the Lord of the Worlds and Muhammed as his Messenger. It is a primary article of faith.

Muslims will also state emphatically that they do not worship Muhammed, but even that is not entirely true, as we shall see by turning to Merriam-Websters Dictionary.
Main Entry: 1 wor·ship
Pronunciation: \ˈwər-shəp also ˈwȯr-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>.

In the case of definition 4, Muslims most certainly worship Muhammed. They always offer extravagant respect and admiration to his person and are utterly devoted to emulating his every action. This is commonly referred to as "hero-worship", which is listed as being 1 : veneration of a hero 2 : excessive adulation for an individual.

Oddly, Muslims are critical of Christian's worshipping Jesus as God and yet worship the person of Muhammed in every way that is meaningful. It is true that they do not pray to Muhammed as God, but nonetheless there is the distinct hero or idol worship that is undeniable. Given that one of the two meanings of idolatry is: immoderate attachment or devotion to something it does make one question why there is such a big fuss over Christian's undying love and devotion towards Jesus Christ.

 

[Perfect Circle]

Good question: Christians, being the followers of Christ as a deity, do show a great deal of love and respect for Jesus. While the Islamic side of the fence considers him to be a respected prophet (if my memory serves me correctly.) Since they are so close, let us look at the individual actions of each religion towards the mighty Jesus.

Christianity - Developed a number of hit songs regarding Jesus' ability to perform wondrous doodads. Everything was sung about, from healing of the sick, to Jesus' ability to beat up Santa Clause (Ho, Ho, Oh! by Jennifer Clementine.)

Islam - Created the famous, House of Jesus Memorabilia. This iconic abode, currently located in Cairo, Egypt, is home to the world's largest collection of stuff that Jesus probably said, did, agreed with, and notarized. There is even an unabridged new testament that was signed by Jesus himself at the original book tour. Best of all, the entire attraction is free of charge.

Christianity - Constructed the 40 petawatt laser that carved the phrase "We Love Jesus Most" in the side of Mars. Now, all the passing aliens know where the planets true allegiances lie.

Islam - Personally visited Jesus when he came down with the bubonic plague. With them they brought delicious chicken noodle soup, a number of home remedies, and an assortment of get well cards and chocolates. Then, using their doctoral know-how, they nursed Jesus back to health.

Christianity - Knitted Jesus a best friends forever sweatshirt.

Islam - Washed Jesus' Chevy Cobalt after a lengthy road trip.

Christianity - Through a series of phone calls, picketing, and lobbying, stopped telemarketers from contacting Jesus about unwanted offers.

Islam - Bought Jesus a lifetime supply of unbelievably delicious girl scout cookies.

So, taking these various actions into account I'm sure you can tell who wins the Jesus' BFF competition.

This is the best, most relevant, and funniest post in this whole thread...
I think I'm still laughing...

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Assalamualaikum.

So we worship Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

Well that backfires on Christianity. Because we idolize Muhammad just as Jews idolize Moses. Or David, Solomon, or any of the other Prophets for that matter. You, as a Christian, believe it was right for Jews to idoloze Moses, or David, Solomon or any of the other Prophets.

Jews treat Moses (peace be upon him) as we treat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). So if, according to you, we worship Muhammad then Jews worship Moses. So what, exactly is the difference between Jews idolizing Moses and Christians worshipping Jesus?

The difference is the same as with Muslims idolizing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and worshipping God.

You see, we idolize anyone whom God approves. And God has given greatest approval and praise to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Our imitation and veneration for Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) stems from the fact that God has ordered us to imitate and venerate him. Same with Jews ... they imitate and venerate Moses because he has been given certification by God as a good model and one who deserves veneration.

The key is in our primary declaration:
"I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, who is one and has no partners, and I testify that Muhammad is His servant and messenger".

We testify Muhammad because he is His servant first.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Also, kindly let me know one by one which Christian arguments have been slipped under the rug.

I will try to answer them one by one.

Thank you.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Also, kindly let me know one by one which Christian arguments have been slipped under the rug.

I will try to answer them one by one.

Thank you.

Would you do without an appeal to the "authority" of a book?

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I am not sure I understand but I think the answer is:

I will use purely logical arguments and discuss the point on rationality

Oh wait ... you mean whether the Bible is accurate ... well I don't think the Bible is accurate but I will try to counter any Christian arguments using the Bible itself

That would be interesting, no?

 

[ayani]

tariq... the arrogance and triumph of logic so often found in Islamic-Christian debates is really sad, imo.

Abu, i do have one practical advantage in this- i was raised a Christian, and have lived as a Muslim. i have been in and of both faiths. i know what both believe, the arguments they have against one another, and why.

have you ever read the NT? you ask how i can trust the "corrupted" NT. it's faith, scholarship, reasoning, and trust. for example, Abu, the same goes for Muslims- lots of faith is involved, too.

a Muslim has faith that Allah has indeed preserved the entire Quran, letter by letter, over the centuries, in spite of the fact that the Quran was not compiled until the caliphate of Abu Baqr, who searched for the various parts of the Quran on date leaves, parchment, and in human memory, and when the Quran was compiled, it was not in chronological order of revelation. in spite of the fact that Caliph Uthman ordered the burnings of many codexes of the Quran, and that as Muslims believe, by Allah's grace, the true and pure version came through and is the same, unaltered, to this day.

Muslims have faith in Muhammad, that he was a noble, truthful, honorable man whose example is to be trusted and followed, even when some things recorded in reliable hadith that he has ordered, said, or done may cause alarm, confusion, or even disgust among non-Muslims and Muslims alike- these words and deeds are defended, explained, and ultimately trusted as being ok in Allah's sight, even if we can't fully understand them, simply because, by faith, one believes him to be Allah's chosen apostle.

there's a lot of faith in that, too.

and i really do feel that Muslims don't really understand the meaning of "Son of God". Jesus calls Himself both "Son of Man" and "Son of God". Son of Man in the semantics of Jesus' language means on one level "a human being" or "this person / this man". the notion of our being God's sons and daughters may be blasphemous and alarming to Muslims, but not to Jews and Christians- this language is common to both faiths. the alarm and anger that many Muslims feel over Jesus' being called "God's Son" imo shows a great gap of understanding regarding Judaic language, traditions, and theology.

my faith is not based on logic- but on the heart, and on faith, trust, and God's mercy. i have faith that there is something singular, unique, Godly, holy, and wonderful about Christ, Yasoa al-Masih as He is known to Arabic-speaking Christians. i have read of His miracles, teachings, promises, claims, and death and resurrection, and i have faith in these things. not just faith, but the joy that comes from that faith, and the guidance of God's holy spirit. God did sent Jesus, i believe that. i am no longer sure at all that God, at least the same God who through Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, who promised that someday geography would not be a barrier or focal point in the worship of God (they shall worship neither here nor in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth), and who offered forgiveness and God's peace to all who believed, also spoke to Muhammad through Jibreel and sent down the Quran.

yes, Islam is logical, very much so. and on many points, there's also a lot that gives many Muslims and non-Muslims alike reason to pause and wonder. i have faith in Jesus, the Son of Man and the Son of God- i respect Him by following His commandments, sharing my testimony, working with church groups, reading the Bible, praying as He taught us, and sharing His good news with others.

 

[ayani]

I expected nothing less from someone who serves not Allah, but a book.

To elevate a book to the status of the literal word of God is to elevate it to the status of God himself and thereby diminish God.

this is an awesome point.

which is why i'm leery of using Bible passages to refute Quranic passages. do Christians worship the Bible, or do they adore, honour, and follow Christ, who is alive, and whose words remain valid and true? true, we learn about Christ through the Bible. but Christ is still the Word made flesh, the way, the truth, and the life. the earliest Christians did not have the Bible- and those living with Jesus had their own testimonies to share the good news. e.g. "i was out in the market this morning, and this poor, dusty man with a Gallilean accent came by, preaching wonderfully and getting everyone to listen quietly. then, He actually healed a blind man! right in front of me. it was amazing... this man must be from God."

imo Christians should not solely take up the challanges of Muslims with their own book in quotes (text vs. text), but with Christ Himself, and let His life, truth, and signs speak for themselves, and shine through in the life of the Christian. many have said that our walk is our greatest testimony.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

wow ... when you punch Ms. Ayani you really punch hard. Real hard.

But the problem here is not the hard hitting but that the punches come from numerous directions. I do not know which one to defend first.

Therefore, Ms. Ayani, can you please give me only one reason at a time (related to this thread, of course) and we can debate the point in question.

One thing I wish to say, though, and I doubt you will disagree with me. You are right to say that logic is not the ultimate answer because as logical as our beliefs might be our limited human brain might not be able to see the logic. However, God knows the correct path. So I request you (and I will do this as well) that as we debate you pray to God and sincerely ask him that if Tariq is wrong please show him the correct path but if he is right please show me the right path or show us both the right path as (chances are) we are both not really on the straight path.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Just a short note, tariqkhwaja. Your logic doesn't work with a non-Christian believer.

 

[TashaN]

That's Jay's line. You can't use it!

I really miss him.

I expected nothing less from someone who serves not Allah, but a book.

To elevate a book to the status of the literal word of God is to elevate it to the status of God himself and thereby diminish God.

lol.

 

[Scott1]

imo Christians should not solely take up the challanges of Muslims with their own book in quotes (text vs. text), but with Christ Himself, and let His life, truth, and signs speak for themselves, and shine through in the life of the Christian. many have said that our walk is our greatest testimony.

Amen... the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living". Praise Jesus!

 

[TashaN]

Ah, but you are VERY selective about what you choose to answer. When you are shown to be quite mistaken you merrily skip along as if the rebuttal never existed.

Let's recap for the home audience.


Christianity:
1. The majority of all Christians see Jesus as literally "the Word manifested as flesh and blood". This is wholly different from being a mere messenger of God in that Jesus is God. (Detractors often confuse the physical body of Jesus as being the sum total of his being, where in fact "The Christ" is the Spirit within the physical Jesus (as well as within all beings) manifested to the fullest potential, in human terms.)
2. Jesus did not arrive with a book, sought to have his thoughts written down or pen a book himself. There is simply no evidence that he did. The Bible was written a good number of years after he terminated his physical body.
3. Though many point out that the BIble has "remained current" by being extensively rewritten to adjust to society as society grew, the basic meanings and premises have changed very little. Angelllous_Evangellous and a few others could clarifly this far better than I. It might prove to be most amusing in future generations if Jesus Control-A'd the loaves and fishes and then Control-V'd them for each man, woman and child present.

Islam:
1. Jesus was born of a virgin birth, but his father was not Allah and Jesus was not his son.
2. Jesus was a messenger of Allah, second only to Prophet Muhammed [pbuh], who brought with him a book for the early Christians and Jews.
3. Jesus was only a man and all miracles he performed were by the will of Allah.
4. Jesus will return to Earth, flanked by Angels and come to stand behind the al-Mahdi. The Mahdi will ask Jesus to lead them in prayer, but he will decline and ask the Mahdi to deliver the prayers to Allah. The point of Jesus doing this is that his deference to the Mahdi will be a sign to all that they should accept Islam, abanding all other faiths.
5. The Bible has been corrupted by men which precipitated the need for Muhammed to deliver the Qur'an to clarify God's word once and for all time. The Bible is considered accurate only where it agrees with the Qur'an.

So, the bottom line is that Muslims and Christians are essentially at logger heads over the role of Jesus Christ. Since its inception Islam has insisted that Jesus is not God, but simply a human messenger of God. Christians find this assertion to be blasphemy as the premise outlined in Islam is directly opposed to the belief in Jesus Christ as being the Savior of all human kind. Muslims insist that Allah (God) is the only Savior and that he has no partners (or middlemen) even though Muslims are implored to accept Allah as the Lord of the Worlds and Muhammed as his Messenger. It is a primary article of faith.

Muslims will also state emphatically that they do not worship Muhammed, but even that is not entirely true, as we shall see by turning to Merriam-Websters Dictionary.
Main Entry: 1 wor·ship
Pronunciation: \&#712;w&#601;r-sh&#601;p also &#712;wo&#775;r-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>.

In the case of definition 4, Muslims most certainly worship Muhammed. They always offer extravagant respect and admiration to his person and are utterly devoted to emulating his every action. This is commonly referred to as "hero-worship", which is listed as being 1 : veneration of a hero 2 : excessive adulation for an individual.

Oddly, Muslims are critical of Christian's worshipping Jesus as God and yet worship the person of Muhammed in every way that is meaningful. It is true that they do not pray to Muhammed as God, but nonetheless there is the distinct hero or idol worship that is undeniable. Given that one of the two meanings of idolatry is: immoderate attachment or devotion to something it does make one question why there is such a big fuss over Christian's undying love and devotion towards Jesus Christ.

Finally, here is something worthy to read from you instead of your previous nonesnese provocative posts. You almost summed up everything. I congratulate you for your decent tone this time.

If you really want to know why muslims see this issue as an important thing, you have to understand that muslims just follow what Allah instruct them to do and they try to stay away from what he forbid. That's the whole issue, nothing more and nothing less. And if Allah has asked us to worship Jesus, we would do it even more than what Christians do today. But he didn't, and he strongly opposed this great shirk, which is to set up partners beside Allah.

Your friend in the light,
Faisal

 

[ayani]

Tariq ~ i hear your people, the Ahmadiyya, are also very persecuted and disliked in Sunni Muslim Pakistan, and that you guys get a lot of grief. the rural Christians of Pakistan also are troubled and face difficulty. so, my sympathies are with you there.

i really do not wish to debate, nor do i feel i'm capable of debate. what i am capable of doing is comparing the Quran, hadith, and my own experiences as a former Muslim to what i have found in Christ, and in Christianity.

what points would you like to discuss?

 

[TashaN]

tariq... the arrogance and triumph of logic so often found in Islamic-Christian debates is really sad, imo.

Abu, i do have one practical advantage in this- i was raised a Christian, and have lived as a Muslim. i have been in and of both faiths. i know what both believe, the arguments they have against one another, and why.

have you ever read the NT? you ask how i can trust the "corrupted" NT. it's faith, scholarship, reasoning, and trust. for example, Abu, the same goes for Muslims- lots of faith is involved, too.

I have a KJV in my room, and yes, i did read it in the past, and i read it when i need any information about christianity or what they believe in.

a Muslim has faith that Allah has indeed preserved the entire Quran, letter by letter, over the centuries, in spite of the fact that the Quran was not compiled until the caliphate of Abu Baqr, who searched for the various parts of the Quran on date leaves, parchment, and in human memory, and when the Quran was compiled, it was not in chronological order of revelation. in spite of the fact that Caliph Uthman ordered the burnings of many codexes of the Quran, and that as Muslims believe, by Allah's grace, the true and pure version came through and is the same, unaltered, to this day.

Muslims have faith in Muhammad, that he was a noble, truthful, honorable man whose example is to be trusted and followed, even when some things recorded in reliable hadith that he has ordered, said, or done may cause alarm, confusion, or even disgust among non-Muslims and Muslims alike- these words and deeds are defended, explained, and ultimately trusted as being ok in Allah's sight, even if we can't fully understand them, simply because, by faith, one believes him to be Allah's chosen apostle.

there's a lot of faith in that, too.

I don't have a problem with that, and i agree with you that it's a faith, after all, and it depends in whether you believe or don't. We are required to use our mind to validate and judge, to use our heart in order to seek the light and guidance of Allah by praying to him.

and i really do feel that Muslims don't really understand the meaning of "Son of God". Jesus calls Himself both "Son of Man" and "Son of God". Son of Man in the semantics of Jesus' language means on one level "a human being" or "this person / this man". the notion of our being God's sons and daughters may be blasphemous and alarming to Muslims, but not to Jews and Christians- this language is common to both faiths. the alarm and anger that many Muslims feel over Jesus' being called "God's Son" imo shows a great gap of understanding regarding Judaic language, traditions, and theology.

What does "Son of God" mean to you, ayani?

my faith is not based on logic- but on the heart, and on faith, trust, and God's mercy. i have faith that there is something singular, unique, Godly, holy, and wonderful about Christ, Yasoa al-Masih as He is known to Arabic-speaking Christians. i have read of His miracles, teachings, promises, claims, and death and resurrection, and i have faith in these things. not just faith, but the joy that comes from that faith, and the guidance of God's holy spirit. God did sent Jesus, i believe that. i am no longer sure at all that God, at least the same God who through Jesus told us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, who promised that someday geography would not be a barrier or focal point in the worship of God (they shall worship neither here nor in Jerusalem, but in spirit and in truth), and who offered forgiveness and God's peace to all who believed, also spoke to Muhammad through Jibreel and sent down the Quran.

yes, Islam is logical, very much so. and on many points, there's also a lot that gives many Muslims and non-Muslims alike reason to pause and wonder. i have faith in Jesus, the Son of Man and the Son of God- i respect Him by following His commandments, sharing my testimony, working with church groups, reading the Bible, praying as He taught us, and sharing His good news with others.

I don't have a problem with your faith in Isa according to the way you chose to believe in him, and i really respect that, alot. The problem arise when you try to show Mohammed as someone who would go against the law of Allah based on false information which i tried to clarify for you.

I hope that you understood about Mohammed now more than what you did when you first came writing in this thread, and i really hope, from the very bottom of my heart that me and you will be guided and chosen by Allah to the right path wherever it is. Pray with me for that sis.