isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[ayani]

Abu ~ thank you very much for your kind, and open-hearted words. they mean a lot to me. thank you, and God bless you, too.

so far as what the term "Son of God" means to me, it means a number of things. Jesus call Himself "Son of Man", meaning He is a person, a man. in other words, of humans- not an angel, a spirit, or anything like that. he ate, slept, made footprints in the dust when He walked, ect. in light of that, "Son of God" can be read as also "of God", just as the former means "of man". i believe that Jesus certainly was of God- His words of truth, His miracles, and His fulfillment of prophecy testify to this.

"Son of God" for me also means just that- He was God's beloved Son. the question should not be "does God need a Son", but rather "do we need God's Son, as a Saviour, Teacher, Light, and Rock"? Christians would resoundingly answer "yes", and this is why God sent Him. now, Islamically, in the Quran's narrative, Jesus is not Yusef's son. He was conceived by the power of God's Holy Spirit, called "ruh quddus" in Arabic. so who is Jesus' Father, as it were? Mary bore Him in her womb, but a womb is not capable of creating life by itself- biologically, it needs male seed. miraculously, in the case of Jesus, the power of life that would have been natural male seed was God's Holy Spirit, hence the miracle of the virgin birth.

the man from whom the male seed comes, is called the child's father. so, if God's miraculous power was the spark that caused Jesus to be conceived in Mary's womb... logically, God is Jesus' Father. that makes sense to me, honestly.

 

[ayani]

Abu, the "laws of Allah", from a Christian perspective, contradict very much the things that God has spoken, commanded, and revealed through Jesus. i will say that much.

Muhammad may have been a messenger, but as a Christian, i do not believe he can possibly be the a messenger of the same True God who sent Jesus. and that's not only because my faith and focus is on Jesus, but because of the many contradictions between Jesus' teachings, and what is said in the Quran and the hadith.

thank you, Abu, for your patience and kindness, and prayers. i do pray along similar lines, and i give thanks to God for the faith i now profess and live by, with God's help. i am thankful also for you, and for your kindness, and brotherly support. God bless you, too.

 

[TashaN]

Abu ~ thank you very much for your kind, and open-hearted words. they mean a lot to me. thank you, and God bless you, too.

Welcome my dear sis.

so far as what the term "Son of God" means to me, it means a number of things. Jesus call Himself "Son of Man", meaning He is a person, a man. in other words, of humans- not an angel, a spirit, or anything like that. he ate, slept, made footprints in the dust when He walked, ect. in light of that, "Son of God" can be read as also "of God", just as the former means "of man". i believe that Jesus certainly was of God- His words of truth, His miracles, and His fulfillment of prophecy testify to this.

"Son of God" for me also means just that- He was God's beloved Son. the question should not be "does God need a Son", but rather "do we need God's Son, as a Saviour, Teacher, Light, and Rock"? Christians would resoundingly answer "yes", and this is why God sent Him. now, Islamically, in the Quran's narrative, Jesus is not Yusef's son. He was conceived by the power of God's Holy Spirit, called "ruh quddus" in Arabic. so who is Jesus' Father, as it were? Mary bore Him in her womb, but a womb is not capable of creating life by itself- biologically, it needs male seed. miraculously, in the case of Jesus, the power of life that would have been natural male seed was God's Holy Spirit, hence the miracle of the virgin birth.

the man from whom the male seed comes, is called the child's father. so, if God's miraculous power was the spark that caused Jesus to be conceived in Mary's womb... logically, God is Jesus' Father. that makes sense to me, honestly.

Then, using the same logic you use, can we say that God was the father and mother as well for Adam? "God forbid"!

Allah doesn't need to use a "seed" from any male, because he can create anything out of nothing, He is God, if you know what it really mean to be "God", the creator.

(BE and it's BEEN).

Abu, the "laws of Allah", from a Christian perspective, contradict very much the things that God has spoken, commanded, and revealed through Jesus. i will say that much.

Muhammad may have been a messenger, but as a Christian, i do not believe he can possibly be the a messenger of the same True God who sent Jesus.

Are the God of the OT and the God of the NT the same one then?

and that's not only because my faith and focus is on Jesus, but because of the many contradictions between Jesus' teachings, and what is said in the Quran and the hadith.

That's really so obvious, because you chose to believe the bible, and i chose to believe the Quran.

thank you, Abu, for your patience and kindness, and prayers. i do pray along similar lines, and i give thanks to God for the faith i now profess and live by, with God's help. i am thankful also for you, and for your kindness, and brotherly support. God bless you, too.

God bless you too, sister, for you have been and still a very close and dear to me, and i'm really happy that you chose something which your soul and heart don't struggle with, and i wish that both, you and me, would follow the most lovable path, not only to us, but to Allah on the first place, for all our worship would be meaningless if we just followed what we want to follow, not what we suppose to follow.

May Allah guide our souls to the right path.

 

[Smoke]

I wasn't whining... just pointing out the hubris and stupidity of the question.

I think no need to go off-topic.

I can't imagine a response that would more on-topic, or more appropriate, than pointing out the hubris and stupidity of the question.

given the histories of blood shed and persecution, i would have to say "non of the above".

Jesus is supposed to have said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." It seems to me that anybody who thinks he can prove his group loves Jesus more because they have the most correct beliefs about Jesus has already lost the contest.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

which group muslims or christians actually love him more and show him more respect

Simple answer: The group that doesn't go around blowing themselves up to kill others.

Another answer: the group that doesn't regard others as "second class."

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Ms. Ayani if you, too, are going to leave the topic to me then why don't you join the "Death (not on the cross) of Jesus Christ" thread. I have already hit two "punches" there and if I must say so myself they are pretty stiff punches.

I disagree with BOTH you and Abu Khalid on your concept of faith. Your concepts of faith seem more like blind faith to me and this is, in fact, common in all other religions of the world (except, I think, Mormons and Ahmadi Muslims). And I can see that it is blind faith that leads you both to argue for so long without any conclusion. Because both of you have blind faith.

I will start a new thread on this.

And Rolling Stone, I agree with you on both counts.

 

[TashaN]

I have already hit two "punches" there and if I must say so myself they are pretty stiff punches.

Sheesh! :cover:

I disagree with BOTH you and Abu Khalid on your concept of faith. Your concepts of faith seem more like blind faith to me

Yeah sure, and yours is the perfect faith ever! Wow

Arrogant assertions will not give you any credit ever. Go figure!

 

[yousaf]

isnt it the ahmadi muswlims being persecuted in muslim countries because they believe that there is a prophet after muhhhamad(saw) nauthubillah

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Simple answer: The group that doesn't go around blowing themselves up to kill others.

Another answer: the group that doesn't regard others as "second class."

Yep...and it would seem that ALL (christians and muslims) are guilty of this.....

I think the idea of one group loving Yeshua more than the other is just pure nonsense. How about loving what he taught and stood for.....Let ALL learn from what he taught and just move on........

What next....Who loves God more.....Who loves kittens more....Who loves apple pie more????????

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Yes Ahmadis are persecuted. Go to The Persecution of Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. No need to discuss this here though.

Yep...and it would seem that ALL (christians and muslims) are guilty of this.....

Correction. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in its interpretation of Islam does not consider ANY other group as second class. Our slogan is "Love for All. Hatred for None" (discuss this on another thread)
And we do not, as I already stated, believe in blowing up others in this age. The conditions for which Jihad with the sword was permitted are applicable no more. (discuss this somewhere else)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Correction. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in its interpretation of Islam does not consider ANY other group as second class. Our slogan is "Love for All. Hatred for None" (discuss this on another thread)
And we do not, as I already stated, believe in blowing up others in this age. The conditions for which Jihad with the sword was permitted are applicable no more. (discuss this somewhere else)

I was merely trying to point out that his description of "muslims" is not just limited to muslims....but christians are guilty of this as well.

When a muslim does it there most like is no way, at the point in time, of knowing which muslim sect he or she belongs to...so some people, not me, tend to lump them all together. It's the same with a christian. If a christian performed a terroist act....one has no way of knowing, maybe not until later, which sect of christianity they belong to.

I also believe that the actions of the few may not be the mentality of the many....

 

[tariqkhwaja]

Point taken Dirty Penguin.

 

[~Amin~]

Abu, you have to admit that this is a very odd thing to say. The first part specifically says "If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing" this nugget of genius is then followed by "He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature". My question is two-fold.
1. Since when does "men" (meant here as humanity) equate to every single living creature?

How have you been old man, i like your comment shows me your thinking,
the answer," And has subjected to you ALL that is in the heavens and ALL
that is in the earth; it is ALL as a favour and KINDNESS from Him.
Verily, in it are signs for a people who think deeply(reflect)." Qur'an 45, 13.
If all things were made for man, and other living things for Man
to reflect on, what would be there purpose, if humans were not
residing on the earth? He wouldn't of created them, this is what is
intended in the Holy verse.

2. Why would Allah, in his magnificent reasoning, kill off ALL LIFE (i.e. all mammals, all amphibians, all reptiles, all insects, all birds etc...) to punish one particular group he has issues with. Is this supposed to be reasonable?

[/quote]Dear Ymir, the deviation you INJECTED in the verse about God(Almighty)
Killing off "ALL LIFE" is NNNOOOTTT in the verse.
Overall i thank God for using you, for the Muslims to respond to.

 

[~Amin~]

Now would you please explain the need to attempt to convince those who reject it to accept it?.

Hi there, no need to convince just a desire to convey.

I did not say that you did.
I was merely asking why there is this need.
If you have not said need, then perhaps you cannot answer the question because you have no basis for comparison.

"And our duty is ONLY to convey plainly(clearly the message)"
Qur'an 36,17.
When someone loves something sport, job ,hobby, then naturally
it will come up in the discussion, that's my opinion, likewise with
those who try to submit to God.

 

[YmirGF]

Greetings, grasshopper, it is always a pleasure to chat with you too. :flirt:

"And has subjected to you ALL that is in the heavens and ALL

that is in the earth; it is ALL as a favour and KINDNESS from Him. Verily, in it are signs for a people who think deeply(reflect)."

If all things were made for man, and other living things for Man

to reflect on, what would be there purpose, if humans were not residing on the earth? He wouldn't of created them, this is what is intended in the Holy verse.

I see the human animals as being a part of the primate class of mammals. As a species, we are the only known animal that openly rejects its animal nature or original identity as an animal and a natural product of evolution. Our self-created divorce from our primal identity has caused us to place ourselves apart from the natural order, perceiving ourselves as being greater than all other living things within that natural order.

This type of delusion is what has given rise to ideas that we are somehow here by divine decree, because we fail to appreciate our heritage for what it is and fabricate theories that are much more appealing, much like a commoner may put on “airs” by pretending they are lord of the manor. This, imho, is perhaps our greatest failing as a species. This is one reason why we find it acceptable to look down on less evolved life forms in our natural world. This is one reason why we do not exist in harmony with our environment and each other.

Dear Ymir, the deviation you INJECTED in the verse about God(Almighty).

Killing off "ALL LIFE" is NNNOOOTTT in the verse. Overall i thank God for using you, for the Muslims to respond to.

Not a problem, my friend, it is not as if any of the Muslims have been terribly persuasive. Since you are entering the discussion late, let us review the passage.

If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).

If Allah were to take mankind to task for their wrong-doing, he would not leave hereon a living creature, but He reprieveth them to an appointed term, and when their term cometh they cannot put (it) off an hour nor (yet) advance (it).

Should God punish men for their perverse doings, he would not leave on earth a moving thing! but to an appointed term doth He respite them; and when their term is come, they shall not delay or advance it an hour

In all three translations, it is obvious that Allah would kill ALL LIFE on the planet IF he were to punish men for their “wrong-doing”. It is equally obvious that my analysis is spot on, in fact. The fact that Allah allegedly chooses to delay his judgment does not minimize the heinous intent given here.

Given that, the same god supposedly unleashed the flood in the time of Noah, one gathers that this is not an idle threat, but rather, one made for "effect". It is, however, also something called emotional blackmail or coercion of the vilest sort. Any thinking person would have to be mad not to be compelled to accept Islam in light of this, yet we hear the oft-repeated claim, “There can be no compulsion in religion.”

If this is not compulsion, I am hard pressed to imagine what compuslion is.

 

[maro]

Muhammad may have been a messenger, but as a Christian, i do not believe he can possibly be the a messenger of the same True God who sent Jesus.

so Muhammad was a messenger sent by a *false* God , but not the *true* God ?
how many Gods are there ?

why don't you just say that you think Muhammad was a liar "God forbid " , that will make more sense.....

 

[~Amin~]

Greetings, grasshopper, it is always a pleasure to chat with you too. :flirt:.

LIKEWISE.:flirt:

Our self-created divorce from our primal identity has caused us to place ourselves apart from the natural order, perceiving ourselves as being greater than all other living things within that natural order.

Truly from the Islamic stand point, some humans are worse then animals,
as God mentions in the Last testament, so i think your just a little of track here.

This is one reason why we find it acceptable to look down on less evolved life forms in our natural world. This is one reason why we do not exist in harmony with our environment and each other.

Again we are taught not to look down on anyone regardless of faith or makeup,
but humans are created more comprehensive then any other creatures,
by God's choosing, i don't see animals building or controlling, airoplanes, cars,
satellite's, cruise liners, spaceships etc, & Humans act on intellect and animals
on instinct, but your a smart guy, I'm sure your aware of all this, Ymir.

In all three translations, it is obvious that Allah would kill ALL LIFE on the planet IF he were to punish men for their “wrong-doing”. It is equally obvious that my analysis is spot on, in fact. The fact that Allah allegedly chooses to delay his judgment does not minimize the heinous intent given here.

Your starting to get amusing now, NNOOO that's your interpretation .

Given that, the same god supposedly unleashed the flood in the time of Noah, one gathers that this is not an idle threat, but rather, one made for "effect". It is, however, also something called emotional blackmail or coercion of the vilest sort. Any thinking person would have to be mad not to be compelled to accept Islam in light of this, yet we hear the oft-repeated claim, “There can be no compulsion in religion.”
If this is not compulsion, I am hard pressed to imagine what compuslion is.

True there's no compulsion, but you will be taken to account in the next life for
you rejection of the truth, your complaint resembles to me, like a prison inmate
accusing the government of being unjust, after committing murder that, he should be
free, and that no punishment should befall him even though he admits his heinous crime. Even a modern Secular system REJECTS this idea of yours, and gives people
either a life sentence or awaiting Death Row(death penalty).
"So put not similitude's for God. Truly God Knows and you Know not.
Qur'an 16, 74.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

this is an awesome point.

which is why i'm leery of using Bible passages to refute Quranic passages. do Christians worship the Bible, or do they adore, honour, and follow Christ, who is alive, and whose words remain valid and true? true, we learn about Christ through the Bible. but Christ is still the Word made flesh, the way, the truth, and the life. the earliest Christians did not have the Bible- and those living with Jesus had their own testimonies to share the good news. e.g. "i was out in the market this morning, and this poor, dusty man with a Gallilean accent came by, preaching wonderfully and getting everyone to listen quietly. then, He actually healed a blind man! right in front of me. it was amazing... this man must be from God."

imo Christians should not solely take up the challanges of Muslims with their own book in quotes (text vs. text), but with Christ Himself, and let His life, truth, and signs speak for themselves, and shine through in the life of the Christian. many have said that our walk is our greatest testimony.

In all your posts, you show that Jesus is in your mind, heart and soul. I find your example in Christ to be inspiring and void of pettiness. I hope all who seek God find themselves to be as beautiful in truth as you. :foryou:

 

[ayani]

Jeremy ~ thanks to Christ. and for your kind words and Christian witness, thank you. we should all do our best to reflect the Master. plant the seeds, let God bring them to root, no?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jeremy ~ thanks to Christ. and for your kind words and Christian witness, thank you. we should all do our best to reflect the Master. plant the seeds, let God bring them to root, no?

I agree wholeheartedly.