Isaiah 45:7 does God really create evil?

[satori8]

Isaiah 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

~~~~~

Some definitions have used calamity in place of evil. But why would God create evil if he is wholly good?

 

[Awoon]

Yep that's what the Prophet believed.

 

[satori8]

Yep that's what the Prophet believed.

Apparently it seems so, but I have to admit, I was quite shocked to see this scripture.

Why would he create evil?

 

[Shermana]

Isaiah 45:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

~~~~~

Some definitions have used calamity in place of evil. But why would God create evil if he is wholly good?

The word for "evil" is more or less "chaos" or "disturbance" or "Disaster" or rather "un-peace", it's the opposite of "peace".


New International Version (©2011)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
New Living Translation (©2007)
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

English Standard Version (©2001)
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."

International Standard Version (©2012)
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.

NET Bible (©2006)
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Awoon]

It's all the Human mind creating and separating dualities.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Satori,

My translation - the NRSV - renders that verse as "I make weal and create woe" that is fortune and misfortune, which is perfectly in line with the rest of the Hebrew Bible.

The Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, teaches that evil does not "exist" but is simply the absence of good. Consider light and darkness, often used to describe good and evil.

Light is a real property of the universe. There are light particles - or more properly called photons - and we can measure them in units. There are no particles or units of darkness. One cannot measure darkness because it doesn't actually exist, it is actually just the lack of light in a specific place.

In the same way: heat and hold.

There is no such thing as coldness. We can measure and calculate heat, according to degrees or Celsius because it is real. Heat is given off from the sun. Coldness is not a thing in itself, rather it is a human being's perception of the lack of heat, just as darkness is a human being's perception of the lack of light.

Evil is non-existence, in reality there is only good and everything in creation in essence is pure goodness.

St. Augustine of Hippo wrote:

"...And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the Almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil. For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present—namely, the diseases and wounds—go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance,—the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils—that is, privations of the good which we call health—are accidents. Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are cured, they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else..."

- St. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 C.E), church father & Doctor of the Catholic Church
​

Read:

One of the most influential responses to the problem of evil comes from St Augustine. As a young man, Augustine followed the teachings of a Christian sect known as the Manichees. At the heart of Manichean theology was the idea of a cosmic battle between the forces of good and evil. This, of course, proposes one possible solution to the problem of evil: all goodness, purity and light comes from God, and the darkness of evil has a different source.

However, Augustine came to regard this cosmic dualism as heretical, since it undermined God's sovereignty. Of course, he wanted to hold on to the absolute goodness of God. But if God is the source of all things, where did evil come from? Augustine's radical answer to this question is that evil does not actually come from anywhere. Rejecting the idea that evil is a positive force, he argues that it is merely a "name for nothing other than the absence of good"...

One consequence of Augustine's mature view of evil as "non-being", a privation of the good, is that evil eludes our understanding. His sophisticated metaphysics of evil confirms our intuitive response of incomprehension in the face of gratuitous brutality, or of senseless "natural" evil like a child's cancer. Augustine emphasises that evil is ultimately inexplicable, since it has no substantial existence: "No one therefore must try to get to know from me what I know that I do not know, unless, it may be, in order to learn not to know what must be known to be incapable of being known!"...

Surprisingly, though, the basic insight of Augustinian theodicy finds support in recent science. In his 2011 book Zero Degrees of Empathy, Cambridge psychopathology professor Simon Baron-Cohen proposes "a new theory of human cruelty". His goal, he writes, is to replace the "unscientific" term "evil" with the idea of "empathy erosion": "People said to be cruel or evil are simply at one extreme of the empathy spectrum," he writes. (He points out, though, that some people at this extreme display no more cruelty than those higher up the empathy scale – they are simply socially isolated.)

Loss of empathy resembles the Augustinian concept of evil in that it is a deficiency of goodness – or, to put it less moralistically, a disruption of normal functioning – rather than a positive force. In this way at least, Baron-Cohen's theory echoes Augustine's argument, against the Manicheans, that evil is not an independent reality but, in essence, a lack or a loss.

Evil, part 2: does it exist? | Clare Carlisle | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

God cannot have created something that doesn't exist in the first place!

​

 

[satori8]

Interesting. Thanks for your replies. I wonder if part of the 'reason' for evil, it being the absence of good, is so we can know good.

 

[Shermana]

Interesting. Thanks for your replies. I wonder if part of the 'reason' for evil, it being the absence of good, is so we can know good.

What an inferior (and boring) world this would be if there was no such thing as evil. There'd be no point, no purpose, no challenge. It would just be...robotic.

 

[satori8]

What an inferior (and boring) world this would be if there was no such thing as evil. There'd be no point, no purpose, no challenge. It would just be...robotic.

Why do we need entertainment in the form of evil? I do not like it. I see murderer, some people beat their children, some people get raped, and so forth. It is insane to want a world with such things, to stop boredom.

 

[Shermana]

Why do we need entertainment in the form of evil? I do not like it. I see murderer, some people beat their children, some people get raped, and so forth. It is insane to want a world with such things, to stop boredom.

It's not about entertainment, it's about purpose.

But it could very well be about entertainment to the gods.

 

[Awoon]

What an inferior (and boring) world this would be if there was no such thing as evil. There'd be no point, no purpose, no challenge. It would just be...robotic.

We all need and like "salt and pepper." It's the spice of life that makes it worth living. No robotic life needed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some definitions have used calamity in place of evil. But why would God create evil if he is wholly good?

Because the better translation is calamity.

 

[satori8]

Because the better translation is calamity.

Calamity is still bad though. If a tsunami hits and kills a lot of people, I would wonder why God would wish to kill so many.

We're told to not kill, but he can kill numerous people?

I see that madness.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We're told to not kill, but he can kill numerous people?

I see that madness.

OK - thanks for sharing.

 

[BSM1]

Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

~~~~~

Some definitions have used calamity in place of evil. But why would God create evil if he is wholly good?

The verse, I believe, means exactly what it says. If there is evil in this world it has to be created by a God who creates everything. If not, evil has to be created by another deity just as powerful as the God of the Old Testament. This would leave us in a dualistic quandary. The mere fact that God creates evil (as well as good) gives us the opportunity to exercise our free wills to choose which aspect of God we wish to display in our lives. Good and evil are judgement calls at best and we are constantly choosing between the two. Forget all the other apologetic 'interpretations' in other sources, this eliminates the gray area.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The verse, I believe, means exactly what it says.

At issue is whether or not you understand what it says, and you clearly do not.

 

[satori8]

The verse, I believe, means exactly what it says. If there is evil in this world it has to be created by a God who creates everything. If not, evil has to be created by another deity just as powerful as the God of the Old Testament. This would leave us in a dualistic quandary. The mere fact that God creates evil (as well as good) gives us the opportunity to exercise our free wills to choose which aspect of God we wish to display in our lives. Good and evil are judgement calls at best and we are constantly choosing between the two. Forget all the other apologetic 'interpretations' in other sources, this eliminates the gray area.

That's an interesting premise because I have wondered if God is both light and darkness, and by choosing light we can be connected with the light aspect of God, and then choosing darkness deal with the darkness in God.

 

[Awoon]

That's an interesting premise because I have wondered if God is both light and darkness, and by choosing light we can be connected with the light aspect of God, and then choosing darkness deal with the darkness in God.

All creation and choices are born in your own mind energy.

 

[Levite]

Well, it only makes sense. If there's only one God, who is the sole creator and source of everything, that would have to include bad stuff-- whether you wish to name the bad stuff evil or calamity or chaos or whatever.

If the bad stuff in question is natural effects-- tsunamis, earthquakes, diseases, etc.-- then God is ultimately responsible because He created a universe that requires chaos and entropy, and which uses mechanisms like natural selection and evolution, which produce competition and predation, which result in people getting ill or killed.

If the bad stuff in question is the result of human actions-- murders, rapes, upheavals and wars, disasters caused by either environmental havoc or greed or oppression, etc.-- then God is still in some measure ultimately responsible, because He created us all with free will, knowing that some of us would use that free will to the detriment of others.

But I don't believe that what is intended by Isaiah's statement is a theology of direct malice-- that God deliberately harms or kills specific individuals for malicious reasons.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Also of interest is the parallelism, the interplay between creating, fashioning, and making, and the use of vav in a manner that can suggest, e.g., having created x I fashioned y.