The logical conclusion would be: Allah is most merciful, as long as you're afraid of him.
(BTW, I have the same incredulity and disdain for the Christian god as well.)
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
ISIS is repeating what Mohammed did a 1400 years back.
- Thread starter morphesium
- Start date
The logical conclusion would be: Allah is most merciful, as long as you're afraid of him.
(BTW, I have the same incredulity and disdain for the Christian god as well.)
I criticize religion because all too often it promotes bad morals and values. I do not believe "fear" is a value we should be promoting. I believe "fear god" is a value that tribes in the ME 2000 years ago held, but it should now be an historical footnote.
Useless2015
Active Member
I do not have fear for humans. The only fear i have is for God. He is the One who can destroy you're soul.
And i respect you're personal beliefs. I am sure you want to live in peace just like me. There is a huge gap tho.My religion is a choice, i made. If you disagree with my religion than thats you're choice. I want to change the minds of people who think Islam is evil but i know that people are not that open to rational arguments. Like the ME, i do not understand that people blame Islam when its mere human nature to defend yourself against invaders.
Well you should count yourself lucky, because 10's of millions of Muslims around the world don't have freedom to make the choice of religion that you made. That in itself is a serious, serious problem, and that's a problem that's baked into your "perfect and unalterable" religion. While I'm critical of religion in general, the idea that apostasy is a crime is a big part of what makes Islam especially horrible.
Mackerni
Libertarian Unitarian
Fair enough and you make sense as well... But if you were to know some of the things I believe you'd probably be mocking my beliefs too. Good thing I don't share my beliefs on here... *cough* *cough*
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
All people are equal in the eyes of Allah and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) that is why Quran began with:
[ch1:v2] All praises to Allah the Lord of all people / worlds.
and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) is called:
[21:108] And We have sent thee not but as a mercy for all peoples.
[ch7:v159] Say, ‘O mankind! truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah to Whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. There is no God but He. He gives life, and He causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet, the Immaculate one, who believes in Allah and His words; and follow him that you may be rightly guided.’
One understands that the problem is rooted in custody of oil, natural resources, wrong interpretations of jihad related verses and not realizing built-in solution in Islam to correct weaknesses of latter days.
Two Hundred Verses about Compassionate Living in the Quran
Read more: http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2013/...mpassionate-living-in-the-quran#ixzz3pMqdIKMU"
Last edited:
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Yes it certainly should be, I can never understand how religion lives so much in the past, Mohammed like all other so called prophets was certainly not perfect, we need to grow up and question all this backwards thinking, for our own and the good of the planet.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
Alas...It is one of those wrong things which have been added in original Islam latter.
Kindly note the:
Translation
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=221®ion=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2
Please read the following work, it will become clear what was reality and what was wrong understanding in this matter:
Ahmadiyya Khalifah IV (ra) writes:
""Having examined this in the light of Islamic history, I honestly believe that the idea first took root in the Islamic world itself and that it is wrong of us to blame the orientalists for having initiated it. They picked it up from the Muslims: before the orientalists were even born, the idea seems to have been present in medieval Islamic thought. It originated in the late Umayyad dynasty. Throughout the Abbaside period, the idea continued to flourish and was further strengthened because the Abbaside sovereigns wanted to use force not only against the enemies of Islam but also against their own people. A license for this was not infrequently sought from Muslim scholars under their influence. The concept has therefore arisen from the conduct and policies of the post-Khalifat-i-Rashida1 Muslim governments of Baghdad.............................""
""To conclude, apostasy is the clear repudiation of a faith by a person who formerly held it. Doctrinal differences, however grave, cannot be deemed to be apostasy. The Punishment for Apostasy lies in the hand of God Almighty, against whom the offence has been committed. Apostasy which is not aggravated by some other crime is not punishable in this world. This is the teaching of God. This was the teaching of the Holy Prophetsa. This is the view confirmed by Hanafi jurists,26Fateh al-Kadeer27 Chalpi,28 Hafiz ibn Qayyim, Ibrahim Nakhai, Sufyan Thauri and many others......""
https://alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html
Hope someday you know about Islam from Ahmadiyya books.
Good wishes.
Sees
Dragonslayer
Peace be on you.
Alas...It is one of those wrong things which have been added in original Islam latter.
Kindly note the:
Translation
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=221®ion=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2
Please read the following work, it will become clear what was reality and what was wrong understanding in this matter:
Ahmadiyya Khalifah IV (ra) writes:
""Having examined this in the light of Islamic history, I honestly believe that the idea first took root in the Islamic world itself and that it is wrong of us to blame the orientalists for having initiated it. They picked it up from the Muslims: before the orientalists were even born, the idea seems to have been present in medieval Islamic thought. It originated in the late Umayyad dynasty. Throughout the Abbaside period, the idea continued to flourish and was further strengthened because the Abbaside sovereigns wanted to use force not only against the enemies of Islam but also against their own people. A license for this was not infrequently sought from Muslim scholars under their influence. The concept has therefore arisen from the conduct and policies of the post-Khalifat-i-Rashida1 Muslim governments of Baghdad.............................""
""To conclude, apostasy is the clear repudiation of a faith by a person who formerly held it. Doctrinal differences, however grave, cannot be deemed to be apostasy. The Punishment for Apostasy lies in the hand of God Almighty, against whom the offence has been committed. Apostasy which is not aggravated by some other crime is not punishable in this world. This is the teaching of God. This was the teaching of the Holy Prophetsa. This is the view confirmed by Hanafi jurists,26Fateh al-Kadeer27 Chalpi,28 Hafiz ibn Qayyim, Ibrahim Nakhai, Sufyan Thauri and many others......""
https://alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html
Hope someday you know about Islam from Ahmadiyya books.
Good wishes.
It is in the most trusted and authoritative sources additional to the Qur'an, so the majority will hold strongly to it if they are the ones in charge.
“Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion).
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676)
The fact is the Qur'an quote doesn't say what you are to do, or not do, to the apostate. It definitely doesn't abrogate the hadith quotes in my opinion, without wishful thinking. The prescribed sentence fits the overall attitude and actions of the place and time.
Neither Muhammad or early Caliphs wanted disunity, doubt, strife, etc. in the ummah, believing there is strength and peace in unity. Words and actions that would cause those things were therefore punishable with varying degree of severity. The second quote is actually one that some of the groups use to justify going after folks who do believe in monotheism and Muhammad's prophethood...if those people are still seen as causing a splintering division amongst the ummah, they are judged to be weakening/attacking Islam itself.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
thank you
I speak Arabic
And type in the Arabic language
I lived with Muslims years agoShe studied Islamic law, because I carry a Bachelor of Law
From an Iraqi universityThe personal history is a tragedy of Islam
One of my ancestors were killed during the genocide of Armenians in Turkey campaign
It migrated because of Islamist threats after the fall of Saddam HusseinIslam is a source of constant dangerThe reason is that religion and state
This education means mixing of religion and stateMuslims in Western countries meet in special places and aspire to gain power so they can apply the Islamic Islamic law
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
to ---Mackerni said
Islam and the teaching of dissimulation
It is the most serious of the teachings of Islam
Muslims in all Western countries were not integrated with those communities
Proof commitment in veil
And commitment in cuisine
Even the Muslim Arab markets, refuses to sell lottery tickets
Because they see it as a tabooGo to any Arab markets owned by a Muslim
And make sure my words
Muslim believed to possess the absolute truth
While he was in fact a man goes down
Islam and the teaching of dissimulation
It is the most serious of the teachings of Islam
Muslims in all Western countries were not integrated with those communities
Proof commitment in veil
And commitment in cuisine
Even the Muslim Arab markets, refuses to sell lottery tickets
Because they see it as a tabooGo to any Arab markets owned by a Muslim
And make sure my words
Muslim believed to possess the absolute truth
While he was in fact a man goes down
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Peace be on you.
Alas...It is one of those wrong things which have been added in original Islam latter.
Kindly note the:
Translation
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=221®ion=EN&CR=E1,E2&CR=E1,E2
Please read the following work, it will become clear what was reality and what was wrong understanding in this matter:
Ahmadiyya Khalifah IV (ra) writes:
""Having examined this in the light of Islamic history, I honestly believe that the idea first took root in the Islamic world itself and that it is wrong of us to blame the orientalists for having initiated it. They picked it up from the Muslims: before the orientalists were even born, the idea seems to have been present in medieval Islamic thought. It originated in the late Umayyad dynasty. Throughout the Abbaside period, the idea continued to flourish and was further strengthened because the Abbaside sovereigns wanted to use force not only against the enemies of Islam but also against their own people. A license for this was not infrequently sought from Muslim scholars under their influence. The concept has therefore arisen from the conduct and policies of the post-Khalifat-i-Rashida1 Muslim governments of Baghdad.............................""
""To conclude, apostasy is the clear repudiation of a faith by a person who formerly held it. Doctrinal differences, however grave, cannot be deemed to be apostasy. The Punishment for Apostasy lies in the hand of God Almighty, against whom the offence has been committed. Apostasy which is not aggravated by some other crime is not punishable in this world. This is the teaching of God. This was the teaching of the Holy Prophetsa. This is the view confirmed by Hanafi jurists,26Fateh al-Kadeer27 Chalpi,28 Hafiz ibn Qayyim, Ibrahim Nakhai, Sufyan Thauri and many others......""
https://alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html
Hope someday you know about Islam from Ahmadiyya books.
Good wishes.
These verses confirm that the teachings of Islam a terrorist
Because the Muslim religion in refusing to debate
The discussion and debate of the most important pillars of religious freedomt has been abrogated by the fighting in the states
It's from the Koran contradictions
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
1=The verse given in post # 229 by this humble:
Translation
[4:138] Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
Please note the multiple stages:
i-Those who believe
ii-then disbelieve
iii-then again believe
iv-then disbelieve,
v-and then increase in disbelief
===> If death was the penalty of apostasy then after the stage (i ) in above verse, the poor fellows should have been killed BUT they keep coming back and leaving and not only this coming and going, eventually they increased in disbelief.......Clearly they were not killed.......AND.......God too did not order to kill them. Instead He said "Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way." i.e. matter is in His Hand.
2= ""The Muslims have three sources for establishing themselves on Islamic guidance.
First, the Holy Quran which is the Book of God than which we have no more conclusive and certain statement. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation.
Secondly, the practice of the Holy Prophet, which is called Sunnah. We do not regard hadeeth and sunnah as one. They are distinct, hadeeth is one thing and sunnah is another. By sunnah we mean the practice of the Holy Prophet, to which he adhered and which appeared along with the Holy Quran and will accompany it. In other words, the Holy Quran is the Word of God Almighty and the sunnah is the action of the Holy Prophet, peace be on him. It has ever been the way of God that the Prophets bring the Word of God for the guidance of people and illustrate it in practice with their conduct so that no doubt should remain in the minds of people with regard to the Divine Word. They act upon it and urge others to do the same.
The third source of guidance is hadeeth, by which we mean those traditions which were compiled from the statements of diverse narrators a century and a half after the Holy Prophet. The distinction between sunnah and hadeeth is that sunnah is a continuous practice which was started by the Holy Prophet. It is only next to the Holy Quran in its certainty. As the Holy Prophet was commissioned for the propagation of the Quran, he was also commissioned for establishing the sunnah. As the Holy Quran is certain so is the continuous sunnah. Both these tasks were performed by the Holy Prophet as his duty. For instance, when the Prayer services were made obligatory, the Holy Prophet illustrated by his action how many rakaas were to be performed in each Prayer service. In the same way, he illustrated the performance of the pilgrimage. He thus established thousands of his companions on his practice. The practical illustration which has been continuous among the Muslims is the sunnah. On the other hand, the Holy Prophet did not have the hadeeth recorded in his presence nor did he make any arrangement for its compilation. Hazrat Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, had collected some ahadeeth and then had them burnt out of greater caution as he himself had not heard them from the Holy Prophet and did not know their reality. When the time of the companions of the Holy Prophet had passed some of their successors thought of compiling the ahadeeth and they were compiled. There is no doubt that most of the compilers of hadeeth were very pious and righteous. They tested the accuracy of ahadeeth as far as it was possible and tried to steer clear of such of them as in their opinion were manufactured, and they rejected every hadeeth any narrator of which was of doubtful veracity. As all this activity was ex post factum, it was no more than conjecture; yet it would be most unfair to say that all ahadeeth are vain and useless and false............................The Quran and sunnah should judge the ahadeeth and those that are not opposed to them should by all means be accepted. This is the straight path and blessed are those who follow it.""
Ahmadiyya Muslim Source:
https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/chap3/chap3.html
3= Any one who feels hadith is calling for death for apostate, please should read all this:
""......Nevertheless, in view of the insistence of some of the divines who affirm that the punishment for apostacy is death, we might briefly examine the question on the basis of hadees also.
Bokhari relates, on the authority of Jabir bin Abdullah, that a desert Arab took the pledge of Islam at the hand of the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, and a little later he suffered from fever while he was still in Medina. He came to the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, and said: Messenger of Allah, do release me from my pledge. But the Holy Prophet paid no attention to him. He came a second time and made the same request, and the Holy Prophet refused to comply with his request. He then departed from Mediga., whereupon the Holy Prophet observed: Medina is like a furnace which destroys the dross and purifies the rest (Fathul Bari, Vol. XXIII, p.173).
This incident is most instructive. The man's repeated request to the Holy Prophet that he might be released from his pledge is conclusive proof that apostacy was not a punishable offence. Had it been punishable, as is affirmed by some of the misguided divines, with death, this man would never have approached the
Holy Prophet with the request that he might be released from his pledge. He would have slipped away from Medina secretly, lest he should be apprehended and put to death.
Again, if the penalty of apostacy had been death, why did the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, not warn him that as he had ceased to believe in Islam, he was liable to be executed'! As he persisted in his request to be released from his pledge, why was he not executed after his second request? Why did not the Companions of the Holy Prophet, who were present on each occasion, warn him that as he had ceased to believe in Islam, he had incurred the penalty of death?
Further, the Holy Prophet appears to have been pleased that the man had departed from Medina. The observation that the Holy Prophet made is an indication that the Holy Prophet considered the man 's departure from Medina a good riddance, as his continued presence in Medina would not have been desirable....""
https://alislam.org/books/apostacy/11.html#hadees
[taken from Ahmadiyya Muslim source written by great scholar (an ex President of International Court of Justice) https://alislam.org/books/apostacy/index.html ]
Last edited:
It might be intellectually interesting to scour ancient documents and debate the fine details. But the real question is this: "How are rank and file Muslims in 2015 interpreting these documents?" And clearly, many of them disagree with the peaceful interpretations we hear on RF.
Peace be on you.
Pictures shows people of ISIS are praying in different directions, perhaps they do not know they have to face Mecca.
No religion in original form teaches to exterminate others.
== ISIS and like ones abuse name of other religions too:
One example: http://aattp.org/here-are-8-christian-terrorist-organizations-that-equal-isis/
== Holy Quran acknowledge others too:
[ch49:v14] O mankind, We have created you from a male and a female; and We have made you into tribes and sub-tribes that you may recognize one another. Verily, the most honourable among you, in the sight of Allah, is he who is the most righteous among you. Surely, Allah is All-knowing, All-Aware.
[ch3:v65] Say, ‘O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you — that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah.’ But if they turn away, then say, ‘Bear witness that we have submitted to God.’
[ch3:v114] They are not all alike. Among the People of the Book there is a party who stand by their covenant; they recite the word of Allah in the hours of night and prostrate themselves before Him.
== The verses you gave please have learning about these at
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1
== http://reviewofreligions.org/10886/...o-debate-the-role-of-god-in-the-21st-century/
the kneeling down was a prostration of happiness, they were not praying.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
You do not know the copyist and copied in Koran
You explain this verse wrongly
This verse is one of the states of Mecca
I hope that you understand the Koran
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Quran is not the word of God was written by Mohamed is also in some sections of the previous transfer wrote it
You forgot to book the reasons for the descent of verses
Because every verse of the Koran is a reason
for example
Incident ideas
When betrayed Aisha Mohammed
This verse will not understand until you know the reason
The reason is in the books of the reasons to get off
And the innocence of Aisha came from God
Do you believe in this myth ??
God, who is the creator of the universe
His job to announce the innocence of Aisha ??
You really do not know the Koran
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
OK
Do you think that the verse which says Abe will hand the flame of God's words ??
Are you able to explain to us what this verse is the spiritual value ??
Also you Al-Jinn are the words of God ??
Gin has Surah in the Koran is the one who speaks ???
And also the marriage of Mohammed Zainab girl colt wife adoptive son of Muhammad Is it from the words of God ???
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
If you dislike Islam that mmuucchh, then at least explain the merits of your own religion to us?
or you are against all religions?
What do you suggest if people abuse their religion for politics.
Or if any religion become escape-goat for political gains?
It seems you had some harsh times with some Muslims in your previous neighbourhood (Iraq?) and now you dislike all Muslims and their faith. Brother do not do that. Did you ever see us doing it to your religion?....Thank you. Deep down your heart you are a good man.
Last edited:
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
I moved away from my personal experience
And speak with you the words of the mind
I understand God in a few words
It is written in the Gospel
( God is love )
Any religion that promotes hatred do not believe him
Every ideology calls to fight I do not believe it
I presented to you from the Koran are simple to prove that the Quran is not the word of God
Do you think that God is the creator of the universe does not have his work just to announce the innocence of Aisha ??