ISIS is repeating what Mohammed did a 1400 years back.

[icehorse]

Hi IceHorse,
I treasure your thought, but thoughts are not facts, I have put forth, hundreds of years where Islam reigns over vast area, and has the upper hand, yet you still saying "sometimes" , then you went to equate Muslims with Islam which is a pitfall in an argument.
I have asked you to answer my question in last two posts above two times, yet you continue to ignore it, it is important to answer the question, for you to realize what is wrong with your replies. so please go ahead and answer it.

I am happy to accept that you have presented some factual information. I am not happy to hear that you think I have not done the same. Bill Warner has spent several decades researching Islamic history, he has written and sold many books, and as far as I know, no scholars have found substantial errors in his studies. So I'll ask you again, if you don't accept the research of Warren, what research could I show you that you would accept as facts?

 

[Britedream]

I am happy to accept that you have presented some factual information. I am not happy to hear that you think I have not done the same. Bill Warner has spent several decades researching Islamic history, he has written and sold many books, and as far as I know, no scholars have found substantial errors in his studies. So I'll ask you again, if you don't accept the research of Warren, what research could I show you that you would accept as facts?

Thank you IceHorse.
Please just go ahead and answer my question above, you will know what is wrong with your argument. We will get back to Dr. Warner later.

 

[icehorse]

Hi Britedream,

I *think* this is what you're asking, but if I'm answering the wrong question, no harm intended, please repeat the question you want me to answer:

And that is also wrong, Muslims are not the Islam, you should be judging Muslim by the Islam, and not the Islam by Muslims. So your video title Islam, but the contents are the action of some Muslims, and claims that it did happen.

Here is my answer: I have read the Quran (several English translations), and I have read several biographies of Muhammad. Based on this and other studies of Islam, I believe that ISIS's actions are - in fact - a reasonable interpretation of Islam.

 

[Britedream]

Sorry IceHorse you missed it.

Here it is:

To use one's opinion or to commit a fallacy,to prove a point, leads no where. with that in mind, one might argue; you American are uncivilized, you are only held off by the police, take off the police from the big cities, such as New York, or Chicago, and see what happens to shops and people.

Is that a valid argument?.

Please answer the question above.

I will get back to your reading of the translations of the Quran, and Dr. warner later.

 

[RAYYAN]

When I read the Quran, I did my best to assume it was accurate. Given that, my sense is that Muhammad might well have advanced the morals and ethics for his time and culture, and I'm happy to acknowledge those achievements.

But - and this is a big but - in the last 1400 years, mankind has advanced morals and ethics way past what Muhammad created. Since I don't need to see Muhammad's achievements as final and timeless, I can be comfortable with his successes. But when Muslims tell me that his life represents the final pinnacle of human achievement, I have to disagree strongly.

That is your personal opinion and I can't say anything, because We are all entitle to our opinions

 

[icehorse]

Hi Britedream,

So you asked:

To use one's opinion or to commit a fallacy,to prove a point, leads no where. with that in mind, one might argue; you American are uncivilized, you are only held off by the police, take off the police from the big cities, such as New York, or Chicago, and see what happens to shops and people.

Is that a valid argument?.

We have two moments to discuss. As far as Bill Warner is concerned, I do not think we can call that video "opinion". It is based on years and years of research of historical documents. Now you can claim that his research is flawed, but these aren't opinions.

Next we can discuss my thoughts. Again, I would say that my arguments are based on weeks and weeks of actual study. I never claimed to be an expert like Warner, but it's NOT the case that I'm simply rendering opinions without any evidence.

As far as your "American" example goes, I would hold it up to the same analysis. In this case, I would agree to some degree. I think that America has some huge problems. In many ways I would agree that there are aspects of America that are uncivilized! (But you should know, that I never use America as my basis for comparison, instead I measure everything against the systems I think are the best, such as ideas like secularism and humanism.)

 

[icehorse]

That is your personal opinion and I can't say anything, because We are all entitle to our opinions

Hi RAYYAN,

These discussions often turn to questions of philosophy. I can tell you that I believe in universal human rights. And I would agree from a philosophical perspective that that belief of mine is an opinion. More specifically, I believe that the world would be a far better place if we all agreed to the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights (UNDHR). Over the last 50 years or so, political leaders in the Muslim world have rejected the UNDHR. Instead they created the "Cairo Declaration on Human Rights". In my opinion that the UNDHR is morally and ethically far superior to the Cairo Declaration.

I would be interested to know if you've compared these two documents and if you have opinions about them.

 

[pro4life]

Okay, let's try one and see how it goes: Explain why Muhammad beheaded ~800 Qurayza men and young boys and took their women as sex slaves. And explain why ISIS's actions don't closely mirror those of Muhammad?

Next, explain Surah 8:12, which in the extremely popular translation I read says: "...so strike them over the necks, and smite over all of their fingers and toes."

First of all to be fair to this group they are not called ISIS anymore, they want to be called Islamic State.
In regards to the incident, where the messenger Muhammad slaughtered 800 qurayzi jewish arabs because they commited treason to the state that was established at that time. the jewish tribe betrayed the leader and were ordered to be killed. According to all constitutions of today's world, committing treason is punishable by death.

 

[leibowde84]

First of all to be fair to this group they are not called ISIS anymore, they want to be called Islamic State.
In regards to the incident, where the messenger Muhammad slaughtered 800 qurayzi jewish arabs because they commited treason to the state that was established at that time. the jewish tribe betrayed the leader and were ordered to be killed. According to all constitutions of today's world, committing treason is punishable by death.

What was the treason specifically, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[pro4life]

What was the treason specifically, if you don't mind me asking?

the quryzi tribe sold weaponry and information to the enemy. In addition they vowed not to help in any shape or form to the defense of the city.

 

[leibowde84]

the quryzi tribe sold weaponry and information to the enemy. In addition they vowed not to help in any shape or form to the defense of the city.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Sees]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Even if some did do that (doubtful)...every male above puberty being slaughtered and the women and children taken as captives definitely isn't reasonable.

 

[leibowde84]

Even if some did do that (doubtful)...every male above puberty being slaughtered and the women and children taken as captives definitely isn't reasonable.

Treason being punishable by death is a reasonable norm. That was my only agreement.

 

[pro4life]

Even if some did do that (doubtful)...every male above puberty being slaughtered and the women and children taken as captives definitely isn't reasonable.

Look my friend, what's doubtful is how you make it.
The quryzi tribe were around 800, half were male adults (puberty & up) and the rest children, and women. Now you may ask yourself "oh poor little 13 year old boys shouldn't have been killed" but don't forget that those 13 year old boys at the time can be instated in the army and kill people children and women.
Taking the women and children as captives is reasonable. Lets say for example they did and killed the children and women, history wouldn't be kind to them, historians would call this a massacre.

 

[Sees]

First of all to be fair to this group they are not called ISIS anymore, they want to be called Islamic State.
In regards to the incident, where the messenger Muhammad slaughtered 800 qurayzi jewish arabs because they commited treason to the state that was established at that time. the jewish tribe betrayed the leader and were ordered to be killed. According to all constitutions of today's world, committing treason is punishable by death.

Were they actually subjects of some state Muhammad was the leader of and how many were guilty? Was there anything other than heresay to even say they were guilty?

Treason is a common Band-Aid to cover up parts of early Islamic history. Even doubting Muhammad as a prophet could be treason.

 

[Sees]

Look my friend, what's doubtful is how you make it.
The quryzi tribe were around 800, half were male adults (puberty & up) and the rest children, and women. Now you may ask yourself "oh poor little 13 year old boys shouldn't have been killed" but don't forget that those 13 year old boys at the time can be instated in the army and kill people children and women.
Taking the women and children as captives is reasonable. Lets say for example they did and killed the children and women, history wouldn't be kind to them, historians would call this a massacre.

It was a massacre

 

[pro4life]

It was a massacre

You're not that bright are you. I was done telling you that it cannot be a massacre because they have not killed the women and children rather it was military aged men that were slaughtered which by the way committed massive treason to the state they pledged to.

 

[Sees]

You're not that bright are you. I was done telling you that it cannot be a massacre because they have not killed the women and children rather it was military aged men that were slaughtered which by the way committed massive treason to the state they pledged to.

Slaughtering a bunch of people who are not combatants but simply old enough to be one is still a massacre...women and children being kept as slaves doesn't make a difference.

They killed all of them so they could take all of what was theirs. There is no pretty justification to it.

 

[pro4life]

Slaughtering a bunch of people who are not combatants but simply old enough to be one is still a massacre...women and children being kept as slaves doesn't make a difference.

They killed all of them so they could take all of what was theirs. There is no pretty justification to it.

The whole tribe were ready to invade from behind as soon as the enemy Qurysh tribe from Mekka entered from the front. That was the plan of the jewish tribe quryza at the time were thinking. They clearly knew the consequence of their actions, they were not fools. Breaking a treatise and committing treason is punishable by death back then and now.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're not that bright are you. I was done telling you that it cannot be a massacre because they have not killed the women and children rather it was military aged men that were slaughtered which by the way committed massive treason to the state they pledged to.

Well, of course they didn't want to kill the women and children. Women are good for breeding and the young boys are future cannon fodder.