ISIS isn't Islam

[Gnostic Seeker]

I have to say I am impressed by the tens of thousands of Muslims around the world- and growing, speaking out against ISIS and these Middle Eastern totalitarian regimes. I admit I've wondered in the past just to what extent radicalism extends within Islam, and seeing Muslims speak out is making me re-think. I've seen Muslims on this and other forums speak out against ISIS. I've seen Muslims in Youtube videos, and even Islamic clerics speak out against ISIS, and speak in favor of secularism. I've changed my mind thanks to these brave souls. I don't think ISIS represents Islam or the majority of Muslims. The Muslims protesting ISIS make a good point: ISIS's greatest numbers in victims are other Muslims. They kill Muslims by the millions. I just wanted to share my belief that ISIS does not represent Islam. These Muslims have helped me see that.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes. and the problem is that there are very few Muslims who stand up against ISIS and criticize it harshly as an offense to Islam.

Even among some moderate Muslims, there are 2-3 who will feel compassion towards these criminals; they will say "poor them...they grew up in ignorance and poverty, it's not their fault. I can't judge them"

The Great majority of Muslims don't speak out as they should be.
Yes, they say ISIS is a bad thing; but they don't see it as a problem for their religion. They don't care if the name of their religion is put together with ISIS:

so...as I said in the other thread. Islam needs a reformation, which clearly establishes what is right and what is wrong for good

The fact that lots of Muslims criticize a Muslim writer like Irshad Manji (who wrote Allah, Liberty and Love) definitely proves that Islam needs a reformation.

at least all the Muslims who live in Europe and US should be united for it

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Hay I think this could be the very groundwork for that Reformation. It seems like ISIS is being treated as the last straw.

 

[Estro Felino]

Hay I think this could be the very groundwork for that Reformation. It seems like ISIS is being treated as the last straw.

Let's talk about America, where women are completely free to do whatever they want, whether they are Muslim or not.
There are very very few Muslim women who fight for women's rights (one of them is Irshad Manji, who is, as I said, harshly criticized by lots of Muslim men).

Maye Christian women like Brigitte Gabriel care more for Muslim women's rights than Muslim women themselves.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Let's talk about America, where women are completely free to do whatever they want, whether they are Muslim or not.
There are very very few Muslim women who fight for women's rights (one of them is Irshad Manji, who is, as I said, harshly criticized by lots of Muslim men).

Maye Christian women like Brigitte Gabriel care more for Muslim women's rights than Muslim women themselves.

I've seen Muslim women speaking out for women's rights Hay. I've even seen them say that Islam calls for the equality of women and men. I've seen quite a few Muslim women who don't wear the hijab. I've heard arguments that the hijab is mandatory, and again arguments that it isn't mandatory. The opinion of most Muslims seems to be that the Quran takes precedence in Islam, and it itself says that many of its rules for women only apply to the women who were in Muhammad's household. Further, the passages seem to be admonishments and not commands. I think this is sufficient to say that Islam teaches women have rights.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've seen Muslim women speaking out for women's rights Hay. I've even seen them say that Islam calls for the equality of women and men. I've seen quite a few Muslim women who don't wear the hijab. I've heard arguments that the hijab is mandatory, and again arguments that it isn't mandatory. The opinion of most Muslims seems to be that the Quran takes precedence in Islam, and it itself says that many of its rules for women only apply to the women who were in Muhammad's household. Further, the passages seem to be admonishments and not commands. I think this is sufficient to say that Islam teaches women have rights.

Of course Islam teaches women have rights. The problem here is not that very few American Muslims have a twisted vision of Islam...
they are free to do whatever they want, as long as their actions are not against the American Constitution and the UDHR.

Lots of Muslims don't understand that in states like America, religion is worth less than zero before the state authority and before the law.
so they think they deserve some privileges, just because they are Muslims. well...the American law must be equal and one for everyone, regardless of their gender, religion, culture, language, etc...

so...if some Muslim wants to apply a sharia law which implies a discriminating treatment towards women, the American judicial system has the legal duty to prevents people from applying those laws.
This means to protect women's rights. Not sterile speeches.

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

Hay I've seen Muslims who argue Sharia is the Islamic way of life, and not even a law. What do you say to that? Now I'm saying many Muslims all over the world don't treat it as a law and legal system, I'm saying this has been contested by some as a misunderstanding of what Sharia is. I listened to a lecture by a Sudanese Muslim who teaches law, and he claims translating Sharia as Islamic law is misleading. He says Sharia can't be Sharia if its imposed by a state, because Islam teaches to let there be no compulsion in religion. Again, I am not saying other Muslims don't see it otherwise...

 

[YmirGF]

Hay I've seen Muslims who argue Sharia is the Islamic way of life, and not even a law. What do you say to that? Now I'm saying many Muslims all over the world don't treat it as a law and legal system, I'm saying this has been contested by some as a misunderstanding of what Sharia is. I listened to a lecture by a Sudanese Muslim who teaches law, and he claims translating Sharia as Islamic law is misleading. He says Sharia can't be Sharia if its imposed by a state, because Islam teaches to let there be no compulsion in religion. Again, I am not saying other Muslims don't see it otherwise...

But therein lives the lie. Of course there is compulsion in Islam. The admonition of the Qur'an specifically states that it is in the acceptance of Islam, submission to god, that there can be no compulsion, but even there, at the birth of Islam, Muhammad was compelled by what was supposedly the Archangel Gabriel to "recite/read". This was repeated three times, by Gabriel in no uncertain terms. There was no "if you like" or "if you are so inclined". It was compulsion, pure and simple. For Muhammad to later utter the famous, "there is no compulsion in religion" is almost laughable.

 

[LuisDantas]

Hay I think this could be the very groundwork for that Reformation. It seems like ISIS is being treated as the last straw.

I hope you are right, but I also very much doubt it. Islam seems to benefit (or suffer, depending on how you view it) from something very similar to Stockholm's syndrome. There is such an onslaught of appeal to fear and to supposedly protective authority that conforming to expectations becomes a very high priority, and the ability to remember or value independent thinking suffers a lot.

Nor do Muslims seem to be well prepared at all to resist the nasty temptation of "lying for God's cause" that arises from their strict monotheism; so certain they make themselves that there is no morality without their God that they end up letting go of moral discernment in order to further what they understand to be God's Will instead. That is a very dangerous mindset, because it is both destructive and usually sincere.

Or so I figure from the last few weeks of debating with several Muslims, anyway.

 

[Estro Felino]

Hay I've seen Muslims who argue Sharia is the Islamic way of life, and not even a law. What do you say to that? Now I'm saying many Muslims all over the world don't treat it as a law and legal system, I'm saying this has been contested by some as a misunderstanding of what Sharia is. I listened to a lecture by a Sudanese Muslim who teaches law, and he claims translating Sharia as Islamic law is misleading. He says Sharia can't be Sharia if its imposed by a state, because Islam teaches to let there be no compulsion in religion. Again, I am not saying other Muslims don't see it otherwise...

They are free to do whatever they want, and whatever their religion tells them to do, as long as they don't break any civil law, any penal law, any administrative law, and any international law (for ex, the UHDR). But please...let's not put the American constitution and the Sharia Law in the same sentence. It is an offense to all the American jurists who have been contributing to improve its juridic system.
-Religion is something juridically irrelevant before the law.
- All religions are equally unimportant before the American law

I am sorry for going off topic...but I just wanted to express that there are too many non-Muslims and too few Muslims who stand up against ISIS and Muslim Brotherhood.
There are too few American Muslims who are for secularism. If you are a Muslim and want to live in Europe or in America, the first thing you must learn is to accept the separation between religion and state

 

[Gnostic Seeker]

I don't know what you're basing that its a few Muslims on Hay. It seems to be a significant number after I researched it some.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't know what you're basing that its a few Muslims on Hay. It seems to be a significant number after I researched it some.

well..when American Muslims found an organization called "Secular Islam" I will say you are right. I won't until then.
But there are lots of Muslims here on this forum; let's see what they think of this interesting character. An imam who says that democracy and freedoms of Europe and America have brought us corruption.
I give them the chance to tell us if they agree with him or not

Honestly...I trust Muslims so much and I know how much they love America, that I am tempted to think that this imam is an actor. Show business,

 

[Estro Felino]

There is such an onslaught of appeal to fear and to supposedly protective authority that conforming to expectations becomes a very high priority, and the ability to remember or value independent thinking suffers a lot.
.

It is a fact that Islam and independent thinking cannot be in the same sentence. I guess that the 99 % if Muslims normally admit that all the time.
And given that it is a fundamental principle of their religion (Islam means submission, indeed), it deserves to be respected.

I guess that is the reason why Muslim people have great difficulties in criticizing ISIS, because they cannot express an independent judgement from the Quranic teachings.

 

[Woodrow LI]

It is a fact that Islam and independent thinking cannot be in the same sentence. I guess that the 99 % if Muslims normally admit that all the time.
And given that it is a fundamental principle of their religion (Islam means submission, indeed), it deserves to be respected.

I guess that is the reason why Muslim people have great difficulties in criticizing ISIS, because they cannot express an independent judgement from the Quranic teachings.

It is quite difficult for a Muslim that criticizes ISIS to attract any media attention.

Have one member of ISIS commit an atrocity and the media porteays it as representing every Muslim. Let all 700 Imams in the US condemn ISIS and it won't even make the back page of a local paper. (There are less than 700 Imams in the US although there are over 2100 Mosques)

How many people are aware of these:

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

HERE

The list goes on. ISIS has declared war on virtually every Muslim, every Islamic Nation has condemned their actions. They are the greatest enemy to attack Islam in recent years.

 

[MD]

ISIS is an extreme form of extremist Islam, it isn't the general view.

But the morality of most Muslims in the world is different from the morality of the West. Speaking as a non Muslim who has lived in the Muslim world, even I am a bit shocked by Western society sometimes and I have lived here for decades.

 

[JerryL]

The list goes on. ISIS has declared war on virtually every Muslim, every Islamic Nation has condemned their actions. They are the greatest enemy to attack Islam in recent years.

Some hate it so much they voulenteer to fight it. Others love it so much they volunteer to fight for it.

Saudi Arabia has opposed it, as an example... so are they an example of "True Islam"? What's their history on women's rights?

 

[LuisDantas]

It is quite difficult for a Muslim that criticizes ISIS to attract any media attention..

I very much doubt that. The press usually thrives on unexpected and controversial happenings, after all.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Some hate it so much they voulenteer to fight it. Others love it so much they volunteer to fight for it.

Saudi Arabia has opposed it, as an example... so are they an example of "True Islam"? What's their history on women's rights?

Is lam is not organized. Being Muslim and following Islam is an individual committment betqween the individual and Allaah(swt) A true Muslim is a person who performs Islam.

It seems quite a few Islamic Fighters are not from Islamic Countries but are recent converts the seem to have been recruited specifically for ISIS. I can not imagine many long term Muslims that have studied Islam, having any desire to support ISIS

As to who is actually practicing Islam, that is often a debatable topic even among Muslims. The only thing for certain all Muslims agree upon are the 5 pillars of faith. It is up to each of us to be certain what we follow is Supported by Qur'an and Sunnah.

 

[Estro Felino]

As to who is actually practicing Islam, that is often a debatable topic even among Muslims. The only thing for certain all Muslims agree upon are the 5 pillars of faith. It is up to each of us to be certain what we follow is Supported by Qur'an and Sunnah.

do you think that Irshad Manji is a true Muslim?
you know...you said that Muslims are allowed to develop independent thinking and spirit of criticism.

so I am interested in your opinion about this woman, who is one of the Muslims who criticizes any act of violence.
She wrote a book : Allah, Liberty and Love

 

[Estro Felino]

I very much doubt that. The press usually thrives on unexpected and controversial happenings, after all.

well...they need to record these speeches. When there is a conference in which people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Nonie Darwish participate, imams seem very very unlikeable to take a strong position against extremism and radicalism.
They vaguely insist on the lack of a central authority in Islam: I think they all use this excuse to avoid answering uncomfortable questions.