ISIS isn't Islam

[Nada]

Let's talk about America, where women are completely free to do whatever they want, whether they are Muslim or not.
There are very very few Muslim women who fight for women's rights (one of them is Irshad Manji, who is, as I said, harshly criticized by lots of Muslim men).

Maye Christian women like Brigitte Gabriel care more for Muslim women's rights than Muslim women themselves.

Rowdy cat fight.

 

[RAYYAN]

Yes. and the problem is that there are very few Muslims who stand up against ISIS and criticize it harshly as an offense to Islam.

Even among some moderate Muslims, there are 2-3 who will feel compassion towards these criminals; they will say "poor them...they grew up in ignorance and poverty, it's not their fault. I can't judge them"

The Great majority of Muslims don't speak out as they should be.
Yes, they say ISIS is a bad thing; but they don't see it as a problem for their religion. They don't care if the name of their religion is put together with ISIS:

so...as I said in the other thread. Islam needs a reformation, which clearly establishes what is right and what is wrong for good

The fact that lots of Muslims criticize a Muslim writer like Irshad Manji (who wrote Allah, Liberty and Love) definitely proves that Islam needs a reformation.

at least all the Muslims who live in Europe and US should be united for it

I am a Muslim and I don't know any Muslim in my community who doesn't speak against ISIS

 

[metis]

I am a Muslim and I don't know any Muslim in my community who doesn't speak against ISIS

But that doesn't mean that ISIS isn't an Islamic group.

IMO, we need to take "ownership" of the radical elements within our own people and deal with them. About 15 or so years ago, a radical Jew shot up a mosque killing quite a few worshippers. The Jewish reaction was mass protests in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to voice opposition to that kind of behavior, and the Israel government tried and imprisoned him.

What's disturbing about ISIS is the general lack of public protests against them in other mostly Islamic countries, nor do we hear many imams speaking out publicly either.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am a Muslim and I don't know any Muslim in my community who doesn't speak against ISIS

I have several Muslim friends and all of them are against radical Islam, the Muslim Brotherhood. So what?

why do these people exploit the religion as symbol for their crimes against humanity? Simple: because there is no central Islamic authority that decides to reform Islam for good, and decide to establish the separation between Politics and Religion. A reformation that establishes, at last, what is good and what is wrong, what is unislamic and what is Islamic. A Reformation that calls evil by its name.

 

[Woodrow LI]

do you think that Irshad Manji is a true Muslim?
you know...you said that Muslims are allowed to develop independent thinking and spirit of criticism.

so I am interested in your opinion about this woman, who is one of the Muslims who criticizes any act of violence.
She wrote a book : Allah, Liberty and Love

This is going to sound like a cop out. But I do not know who is a true Muslim. I can not see into anyone's hearts or thoughts or intentions.

I can only state what I believe about a persons actions. From what I have heard about Irshad Manji I do not see where she has done anything forbidden by the Qur'an or Sunnah.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is going to sound like a cop out. But I do not know who is a true Muslim. I can not see into anyone's hearts or thoughts or intentions.

I can only state what I believe about a persons actions. From what I have heard about Irshad Manji I do not see where she has done anything forbidden by the Qur'an or Sunnah.

well...I am not saying this sounds like a cop-out, and I would never dare tell people how to practice their own religion.
I can only suggest, advise. and...given that Ishrad Manji has been receiving lots of death threats, I think that she needs more support from Muslims like you.
Lots of Muslims support her of course, but she definitely needs more support.
You definitely said you don't care. which is your right, but I advise you to support her

besides...as a Christian...the fact that a person who writes a book called "Allah, Liberty and Love" receives death threats, shocks me.
She talks about love and she receives hatred. as a Christian, this sounds twisted to me

 

[Woodrow LI]

well...I am not saying this sounds like a cop-out, and I would never dare tell people how to practice their own religion.
I can only suggest, advise. and...given that Ishrad Manji has been receiving lots of death threats, I think that she needs more support from Muslims like you.
Lots of Muslims support her of course, but she definitely needs more support.
You definitely said you don't care. which is your right, but I advise you to support her

besides...as a Christian...the fact that a person who writes a book called "Allah, Liberty and Love" receives death threats, shocks me.
She talks about love and she receives hatred. as a Christian, this sounds twisted to me

Not a question of 'Don't Care" just a realization that a severally disabled old man living in a rural area has little impact except for what he can reach on the internet.

 

[RAYYAN]

I have several Muslim friends and all of them are against radical Islam, the Muslim Brotherhood. So what?

why do these people exploit the religion as symbol for their crimes against humanity? Simple: because there is no central Islamic authority that decides to reform Islam for good, and decide to establish the separation between Politics and Religion. A reformation that establishes, at last, what is good and what is wrong, what is unislamic and what is Islamic. A Reformation that calls evil by its name.

That is true Hay85, I find it a bit difficult to have Central Islamic Authority with the current situation of Muslim nation.

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course, one of the main reasons why there is no Central Islamic Authority is due to the enormous challenges involved in convincing destructive movements that they are not Islamic.

And then we have to wonder what would happen if there were such a central authority and it were in some sense unwise.

 

[JerryL]

I am a Muslim and I don't know any Muslim in my community who doesn't speak against ISIS

Because of ISIS's treatment of people or because it poses a legitimate threat to the government of that country?

I'm having trouble finding an example from Somalia. Can you point me at it?

 

[Woodrow LI]

Of course, one of the main reasons why there is no Central Islamic Authority is due to the enormous challenges involved in convincing destructive movements that they are not Islamic.

And then we have to wonder what would happen if there were such a central authority and it were in some sense unwise.

Many perhaps most of us do not believe there will be a Central Leader of Islam until the Return of Jesus(as) and the coming of the Mehdi.

We do not accept the religious rulings of any living human, unless we ourself have proven them to be true, We are not very receptive to any form of Central Religious leader. We have no ordained clergy. In religious matters no Muslim has authority over another Muslim.

 

[RAYYAN]

Because of ISIS's treatment of people or because it poses a legitimate threat to the government of that country?

I'm having trouble finding an example from Somalia. Can you point me at it?

because what ISIS is doing. what they do is not Islamic in any shape or form

 

[LuisDantas]

Many perhaps most of us do not believe there will be a Central Leader of Islam until the Return of Jesus(as) and the coming of the Mehdi.

We do not accept the religious rulings of any living human, unless we ourself have proven them to be true, We are not very receptive to any form of Central Religious leader. We have no ordained clergy. In religious matters no Muslim has authority over another Muslim.

I have no doubt that many or most Muslims sincerely seek such a stance. I very much doubt that happens very often in practice, though.

Authority is something that people seek very naturally and very insistently. It is a strong human drive, related to the need for security.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I have no doubt that many or most Muslims sincerely seek such a stance. I very much doubt that happens very often in practice, though.

Authority is something that people seek very naturally and very insistently. It is a strong human drive, related to the need for security.

It is somewhat difficult for there to be a Muslim Central religious leader as at one time or another virtually every Muslim serves as an Imam. Imam's are typically not appointed by anyone. Often a person decides to be an Imam and opens a Mosque, usually it will begin as a room in their house. For most of us there is no financial motivation to be an Imam. there usually is no central group that hires one for a Salary. quite common for an Imam to be the sole owner of the Mosque and responsible for it's upkeep.

Other titles such as Sheik, Mufti, Scholar etc are sometimes political appointments in some Nations such as Saudi. But they have no type of central Authority.

Sheik is a Title of respect and not necessarly of any religious meaning although it is common to call a person who has achieved excellent in Islamic studies, Sheik. But it can be for many reasons such as I get called Sheik simply as respect for my age.

 

[JerryL]

because what ISIS is doing. what they do is not Islamic in any shape or form

Ignoring that you seem to be arguing "no true Scottsman"... much of what ISIS is doing is done by dozens of other Muslim groups (boko haram, the Taliban, Al Quieda, etc); do you have any support for your claim to the *reason*, say, Saudi Arabia (who has given quite a bit of support to AlQuieda over the years) is anti-ISIS?

 

[Woodrow LI]

Ignoring that you seem to be arguing "no true Scottsman"... much of what ISIS is doing is done by dozens of other Muslim groups (boko haram, the Taliban, Al Quieda, etc); do you have any support for your claim to the *reason*, say, Saudi Arabia (who has given quite a bit of support to AlQuieda over the years) is anti-ISIS?

We can not say anyone who claims to be Muslim, is not a true Muslim. No one knows who is a Muslim as that is known only to the individual and Allaah(swt)

But we can all point out specific actions and explain why we believe those are forbidden in Islam.

A few things ISIS has done that are forbidden in the Qur'an and or Sunnah

1. Forced Conversions
2. Killing non-combatants
3. Claiming to be a Caliphate, without majority approval of all Muslims.

 

[JerryL]

We can not say anyone who claims to be Muslim, is not a true Muslim. No one knows who is a Muslim as that is known only to the individual and Allaah(swt)

But we can all point out specific actions and explain why we believe those are forbidden in Islam.

A few things ISIS has done that are forbidden in the Qur'an and or Sunnah

1. Forced Conversions
2. Killing non-combatants
3. Claiming to be a Caliphate, without majority approval of all Muslims.

There are an awful lot of Muslims who find any of these compatible with Islam (and that's not a bash on Islam any more than any other religion; most believers manage whatever rationalization suits them.

#1 and #2 at any rate. Certainly the Taliban, Boku Haram, and AQ have been doing both. #2 at least we can start throwing in groups like Hamas as well. We are talking about a lot of people... especially when we include their supporters.

I'm not aware that much of the Muslim world has come out in opposition to Hamas, who has been known to attack school buses.

 

[Woodrow LI]

There are an awful lot of Muslims who find any of these compatible with Islam (and that's not a bash on Islam any more than any other religion; most believers manage whatever rationalization suits them.

#1 and #2 at any rate. Certainly the Taliban, Boku Haram, and AQ have been doing both. #2 at least we can start throwing in groups like Hamas as well. We are talking about a lot of people... especially when we include their supporters.

I'm not aware that much of the Muslim world has come out in opposition to Hamas, who has been known to attack school buses.

It is true there are Muslims that find those acts compatible with Islam. The actual numbers are large, but they are a minor percentage of the world's Muslims. In Islam war is only justified in self defense and only if all peaceful means have failed. Even then there are strict limitations such as no harming of non-combatants, Clergy of any religion, the young, Women,elderly and disabled. Also livestock,Farm crops, trees, houses of worship and other things are not to be damaged.

I believe you will find that many of us believe Hamas is a political organization and not Religion motivated. Many of us see it as an Israel/Palestine conflict and not a Judaic/Islamic conflict..

It seems that the only Islamic Nations that actually support Hamas are Iran and to a lesser degree Turkey. While there is very little if any condemnation of Hamas, there is also very little support of it.

 

[Tali018]

In relation to ISIS; How are the Catholics different when one looks at the Crusades and the Inquisition which are part of their past? Or How are Ultra Orthodox Jews different, when they think any Jew who does not think or do things the way they do are not even Jews? Each group has attempted to take control in their own manner, but how does that make them ideologically different?

 

[RAYYAN]

Ignoring that you seem to be arguing "no true Scottsman"... much of what ISIS is doing is done by dozens of other Muslim groups (boko haram, the Taliban, Al Quieda, etc); do you have any support for your claim to the *reason*, say, Saudi Arabia (who has given quite a bit of support to AlQuieda over the years) is anti-ISIS?

I was talking about my community, that is what my original post says, I am not talking about Saudi or any other place. I live in Canada