metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And do you honestly think that Jews in Iran could say anything different? What do you think would happen if a Jew there vocally supported Israel?
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ISIS isn't Islam
- Thread starter Gnostic Seeker
- Start date
And do you honestly think that Jews in Iran could say anything different? What do you think would happen if a Jew there vocally supported Israel?
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
The Jews in Iran are Iranians and are Iranian citizens. They identify much closer with Iran than Israel. As Iranian citizens they would be treated the same as any Iranian that supported Israel.
One of the reasons they are in Iran is because they do not support Israel. Quite a few Jews, worldwide, do not believe Israel should have been formed. The Jews in Iran had been given strong incentives to migrate to Israel and refused..
I doubt many if any Iranian Jews would support Israel.
Contrary to popular belief not all Jews support Israel
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
To be fair, Woodrow Li, regardless of your religious affiliations it is a bit more than absurd to say that "quite a lot of Jews do not support Israel". Do you notice the circular logic at work in the post I have quoted?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
You're really missing the point as any poll taken in Iran on the subject of Jewish support for Israel or not would be highly suspect. Secondly, the vast majority of Jews worldwide do support the state of Israel, but certainly not all. I'm sure there's a fair number of Americans who don't support America.
Leaving a country to live in another is not easy, and my wife and her immediate family know this from experience as they migrated from Italy to the States back in 1954.
Finally, do you honestly believe that you speak for Jews worldwide? Even though I'm Jewish I would never make such a claim.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
I Might be mistaken but I believe I said:
"Quite a few Jews, worldwide, do not believe Israel should have been formed"
not
"quite a lot of Jews do not support Israel"
For example:
I do not believe many if any Iranian Jews ever supported Israel. They have a very long History of being Persian (Iranian) While the vast majority of Jews left Iran after the formation of the "Islamic Republis of Iran" in 1979 the 20,000 that remained in Iran are very much Persian, anti-Israel and supporters of Iran. Many of the Jews that left Iran settled in the US mostly among the large Iranian population in Los Angeles. HERE
Hi Woodrow, I want to ask you how you feel about organizations like CAIR (council on american islamic relations)? CAIR is a very vocal Islamic group in the states. They make it on the news frequently. I think CAIR gives Islam a bad name. It seems to me that groups that want to spread Sharia are well organized, and that the majority of Muslims who want to assimilate peacefully, don't organize, or if they do, they don't know how to get their message out.
Regardless of what's justified or not, Islam has a bad name in the West. Cries of "Islamophobia" don't help, they make it worse.
Any ideas how secular Muslims (is that really a real thing?), could get effective, positive news stories going? For example, such a group would probably make the news if they attacked CAIR
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
I do not recall saying anything about any Polls in Iran.
My family also knows the pains of migration. My Grand parents came to the US in the Early 1900's (1912 I believe) from Lithuania and Poland. I'm basically a Lithuanian Tatar(Lietuva Lipkas) and Polish Jew Hybrid.although I identify mostly with being Tatar
I only speak for myself. I do not represent anyone except me. I post what I find along with my views. Having quite a few Jewish relatives and Jewish friends I am partially influenced by them. A person's thoughts are influenced by the people and events in their life.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
Hi Woodrow, I want to ask you how you feel about organizations like CAIR (council on american islamic relations)? CAIR is a very vocal Islamic group in the states. They make it on the news frequently. I think CAIR gives Islam a bad name. It seems to me that groups that want to spread Sharia are well organized, and that the majority of Muslims who want to assimilate peacefully, don't organize, or if they do, they don't know how to get their message out.
Regardless of what's justified or not, Islam has a bad name in the West. Cries of "Islamophobia" don't help, they make it worse.
Any ideas how secular Muslims (is that really a real thing?), could get effective, positive news stories going? For example, such a group would probably make the news if they attacked CAIR
One part my Wife and myself are doing is showing that Muslims do not forbid the use of Service dogs and that many American Muslims are former US military that served in the military protecting America. Both myself and wife are Nam era service connected disabled veteran's.
Recent interview of my wife. I'm the one with the beard being quiet for a change
First off CAIR is quite a bit smaller than what many people believe. Current membership is only about 1,700 at the most and dropping.. My own findings is they are not very well organized and divided on their views. I have found CAIR members to cover the full spectrum from very Moderate to Fundamentalist. The Majority seeming to be Moderate college students.
As for the "Spread of Sharia" yes all or nearly all Muslims want Sharia. Sharia is not what you see Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, The Taliban, Al Qaida or ISIS doing. It is the following of a Madhab. The Madhab I try to follow is the Hanafi
(FEATURES OF AL-MADH'HAB AL-HANAFI
The Al-Hanafi School of Thought tends to put more emphasis on Qiyas (Analogy) andRaa'y (personal opinion) than an emphasis on Hadith choices, and the deductions therefrom. It does not acknowledge the Imamah of Ahlul Bayt. The Hanafi School of Thought beganits popularity in the last quarter of the second century Hijrah
For more info HERE)
Like most Muslims I know I do not see any need to change any criminal laws but I would like to see Sharia Compliant legal contracts to be recognized in all states, For example in about 10 States my Nikkah (Sharia Marriage) is not recognized and is illegal in 2 states.
Hey Woodrow,
Thanks for sharing that!
My question about CAIR though was in response to your earlier comment about how the 1700 Imams don't get much press. So even if CAIR is small, they manage to get a lot of press. I'd say again that a lot of what Americans know about Islam comes from CAIR, and CAIR does not come across well.
In other words, CAIR knows how to play the media game, and whether we like it or not, it's an important game to play. It strikes me that the 1700 Imams need to learn how to play the media game - if no one does, Islam's reputation will not improve.
Thanks for sharing that!
My question about CAIR though was in response to your earlier comment about how the 1700 Imams don't get much press. So even if CAIR is small, they manage to get a lot of press. I'd say again that a lot of what Americans know about Islam comes from CAIR, and CAIR does not come across well.
In other words, CAIR knows how to play the media game, and whether we like it or not, it's an important game to play. It strikes me that the 1700 Imams need to learn how to play the media game - if no one does, Islam's reputation will not improve.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
No, it means the media will rapidly show something that puts Islam in a bad light. You are correct what the media does present about CAIR does not give a favorable view of Islam.
You seldom ever hear about CAIR when they do things like this
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
Adding to my above reply
There are less than 700 Imams in the US not 1700. If you got the 1700 from my post, my error for not reading before hitting "Post Reply"
But Imams serve no function except to lead the prayers. They are not ordained clergy and there are no qualification criteria for them. Just a restriction that an Muslim is not to pray behind an Imam that does not know how to lead the prayers. Imams do not have the same type of role as a Christian Pastor, Many Imams are self appointed and built their own Mosque. Here in the US most Mosques are simply an empty room in the Imam's house.
Hi Woodrow,
(I might well have made a mistake with 1700 vs. 700 - not an issue either way.)
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Well for me, CAIR has poisoned its own well. I don't imagine I'll ever trust them.
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You made an interesting distinction between civil and criminal topics. For me it mostly comes down to human rights, not 100%, but mostly. So if you can get a loan without paying interest, cool, as long as we all can. But if a woman gets short-changed on an inheritance, I'd fight that. Even if apostasy isn't technically a crime in a secular society, I would fear that a Muslim woman might undergo some form of coercion to accept an unequal inheritance agreement.
(I might well have made a mistake with 1700 vs. 700 - not an issue either way.)
==
Well for me, CAIR has poisoned its own well. I don't imagine I'll ever trust them.
==
You made an interesting distinction between civil and criminal topics. For me it mostly comes down to human rights, not 100%, but mostly. So if you can get a loan without paying interest, cool, as long as we all can. But if a woman gets short-changed on an inheritance, I'd fight that. Even if apostasy isn't technically a crime in a secular society, I would fear that a Muslim woman might undergo some form of coercion to accept an unequal inheritance agreement.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
There is a big reason for the difference between the ineritance between a woman and man. First being the woman owns the house and all furnishings. That is nevery part of the inehritance. Next the woman is not reponsible for any household expenses, no matter how large an income she has. Even after the death of her husband the male members are still responsible for her living expenses.
In addition a wise woman will stipulate a rediculously high dower in her Nikkah, high enough the husband will never get it paid in full, in the even of the husbands death any remaining dower gets paid, at least as much as the estate can cover. Before any inheritance is calculated.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
Most states now allow LaRiba (No interest loans) they are actually more popular with non-Muslims than Muslims. Roughly the way they work is you go to the bank and let them know what you want to buy. The Bank offers a cash price and if accepted add a margin of profit to it and give you a flat price for it. If you accept they make the puchase and set the length of time you have to pay it off. Every penny you pay is equity. In the event of a default you get it all back after the bank resells the property.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Let me just say that some of the chasidim ("ultra-orthodox") do not recognize the state of Israel because of religious reasons, namely that they believe that only the Messiah can recreate the state, and it must be along the ancient lines whereas the size of Israel would be substantially larger than today. This group represents a small minority of Jews worldwide.
BTW, I notice that you live in N.D. My niece and her family live in Minot.
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
I'm a transplant from Texas. Married a ND girl 6 years ago' I'm a bit south of Minot About 120 West of Fargo
My Grandmother was Ashkanazi from Poland, but it seems nearly all Jews I have for friends are Chassidic. I'm probably more familiar with them then any other branch of Judaism. Although I have one Mizrahi Friend I enjoy him as he speaks Arabic quite fluently. He has helped me with improving my Arabic. I originally learned the Darija (Moroccan) dialect and few people outside Morocco and Algeria can understand me
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
My wife & I have a place near Marquette in the U.P., and we've stayed for short periods of time in N.D. (Bismark once and Fargo twice), but we haven't had a chance to get to Minot. We're tentatively planning on meeting them in Duluth next summer, which is a place we like a great deal, but we don't know if we'll have the time to get to Minot because we get so much company during the summer.I'm a transplant from Texas. Married a ND girl 6 years ago' I'm a bit south of Minot About 120 West of Fargo
My Grandmother was Ashkanazi from Poland, but it seems nearly all Jews I have for friends are Chassidic. I'm probably more familiar with them then any other branch of Judaism. Although I have one Mizrahi Friend I enjoy him as he speaks Arabic quite fluently. He has helped me with improving my Arabic. I originally learned the Darija (Moroccan) dialect and few people outside Morocco and Algeria can understand me
JerryL
Well-Known Member
So since "nearly all Muslims" want this: surely there is a country somewhere that has implemented it or something close. What country should I look at to see Sharia in practice?
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
No Nation has true Sharia Criminal laws. What most Muslims want are the Sharia Civil laws recognized.
Virtually all the Muslim Majority nations have Sharia civil laws and secular Criminal laws. Some of the best examples (In my opinion) are Turkey, Malaysia, Albania, Comoros,Lebanon, Indonesia (Except Aceh Province which has Sharia Criminal law), Morocco (My Favorite when I was Christian) Some Cities/regions that I especially liked: Bali,Casablanca, Rabat, Tangiers, Ankara, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Dubai,
Woodrow LI
IB Ambassador
I should have mentioned that many probably most of us do not believe full Sharia Law, Criminal and Civil will not come until the coming of the Next Caliphate, which will not happen until the return of Jesus(as)