ISIS isn't Islam

[Estro Felino]

In relation to ISIS; How are the Catholics different when one looks at the Crusades and the Inquisition which are part of their past? Or How are Ultra Orthodox Jews different, when they think any Jew who does not think or do things the way they do are not even Jews? Each group has attempted to take control in their own manner, but how does that make them ideologically different?

Yes, the difference is that we Catholics say that the Crusades are devilish, anti-Christian and so on. And that the Vatican was evil incarnate in the Middle Ages.

we take position firmly and passionately.

 

[metis]

because what ISIS is doing. what they do is not Islamic in any shape or form

Maybe not your brand of Islam, nor the brand of undoubtedly most Muslims, but ISIS, al-Queda, Islamic Brotherhood, etc. do justify their actions based on both the Qur'an and the Hadith. Of course they tend to emphasize certain verses over others-- "picking-and-choosing".

 

[Tali018]

Yes, the difference is that we Catholics say that the Crusades are devilish, anti-Christian and so on. And that the Vatican was evil incarnate in the Middle Ages.

we take position firmly and passionately.

Then one should try to accept that the current versions of Islam, no matter how bad other see it, is going through similar changes until it refines itself. Many of these changes have occurred after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[JerryL]

I was talking about my community, that is what my original post says, I am not talking about Saudi or any other place. I live in Canada

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how "what they do is not Islamic in any shape or form" is "about your community".

 

[JerryL]

It is true there are Muslims that find those acts compatible with Islam. The actual numbers are large, but they are a minor percentage of the world's Muslims. In Islam war is only justified in self defense and only if all peaceful means have failed. Even then there are strict limitations such as no harming of non-combatants, Clergy of any religion, the young, Women,elderly and disabled. Also livestock,Farm crops, trees, houses of worship and other things are not to be damaged.

That would be awesome. But I'm having trouble finding a Muslim country that behaves that way. Maybe Indonesia, but that seems more about powerful neighbors than anything else.

I believe you will find that many of us believe Hamas is a political organization and not Religion motivated. Many of us see it as an Israel/Palestine conflict and not a Judaic/Islamic conflict..

Except for all of the support they get from other countries.

Indeed: the "occupied territories" were seized in the first place because a group of Muslim countries: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon.. Supported by: Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Tunisia attempted to start a war.

It seems that the only Islamic Nations that actually support Hamas are Iran and to a lesser degree Turkey. While there is very little if any condemnation of Hamas, there is also very little support of it.

That seems to be something of a Shia/Sunni issue. There's much more widespread support for AlQueda.

Let me ask this a different way: As a Muslim: how do you feel about Christianity (of the time) and the Crusades?

 

[Woodrow LI]

Maybe not your brand of Islam, nor the brand of undoubtedly most Muslims, but ISIS, al-Queda, Islamic Brotherhood, etc. do justify their actions based on both the Qur'an and the Hadith. Of course they tend to emphasize certain verses over others-- "picking-and-choosing".

That would be awesome. But I'm having trouble finding a Muslim country that behaves that way. Maybe Indonesia, but that seems more about powerful neighbors than anything else.

Except for all of the support they get from other countries.

Indeed: the "occupied territories" were seized in the first place because a group of Muslim countries: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon.. Supported by: Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Tunisia attempted to start a war.

That seems to be something of a Shia/Sunni issue. There's much more widespread support for AlQueda.

Let me ask this a different way: As a Muslim: how do you feel about Christianity (of the time) and the Crusades?

Working backwards

Let me ask this a different way: As a Muslim: how do you feel about Christianity (of the time) and the Crusades?

Having been Christian for most of my life, I try to see from both views. My final conclusion, it is pointless to worry about the events of the Past. Yet, I have some emotional feelings about the Crusades of the North being a Lithuanian I am aware of my ancestors having been forced into Christianity. Then in more recent times my wife's ancestors having forced into Christianity by Missionaries into the Dakotas. (My wife is Native American) . My wife was one of the children taken from her Family on the Reservation in the 1940s to be raised as a Christian. Yes there is still pain felt.

That seems to be something of a Shia/Sunni issue. There's much more widespread support for AlQueda.

It is a bit weird as Hamas is Sunni. I personally think Iran sees it as a way for Hezboulla to get a foot hold into Gaza, Jordan and Lebanon

Indeed: the "occupied territories" were seized in the first place because a group of Muslim countries: Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon.. Supported by: Algeria, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Tunisia attempted to start a war.

Even the Palestinian Jews did not want the Ashkenazi Jews to be there. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. Most of the Palestinian and Arab Jews now live in Muslim Nations. The Jewish Population in Tehran Iran is very anti-Israel See HERE

 

[Estro Felino]

Then one should try to accept that the current versions of Islam, no matter how bad other see it, is going through similar changes until it refines itself. Many of these changes have occurred after the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

The only significant changes that would be reasonable to stop this war is to reject (or to remove) all the verses that order Muslims to hate and kill the Jews.
Do you know what the last words of the prophet were, before he died?
Very very spiritual....

 

[Tali018]

....
Even the Palestinian Jews did not want the Ashkenazi Jews to be there. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazim. Most of the Palestinian and Arab Jews now live in Muslim Nations. The Jewish Population in Tehran Iran is very anti-Israel.

FWIW:
When Israel was created the majority of Jews were Misrahi, followed by Sephardi and then Ashkenazi. Ashkenazim brought European educated Jews to the mandate. Thus thanks to their education they had ability to understand politics. They were the minority who were able to direct the creation of Israel. Its not a matter of them being wanted or not, as the Ashenazim had been treking down from Europe since the 1500's and had a large growth spurt in the late 1870's due to Ottomans allowing European Jews to purchase land in the Jerusalem region (in that time Jerusalem was a region that ran from the river to the sea). Even today Askenazim are not the majority, but give it another a few decades they will be. The Jewish population of Iran is not anti-Israel. They have no choice but to be that way or deal with the ramifications of not stating anything Iran tells them too. They don't want to lose their Iranian identity by simply stating a positive stance on the existence of Israel. They have no freedom of speech. And item to think about is when the Neturei Karta visit Iran, there are numerous photos of them meeting with the Iranian gov't yet none of them meeting with Jewish elders.

 

[Tali018]

The only significant changes that would be reasonable to stop this war is to reject (or to remove) all the verses that order Muslims to hate and kill the Jews.
Do you know what the last words of the prophet were, before he died?
Very very spiritual....

Even with all the verses there, most Muslims did not kill Jews. Think about it, there was an excess of a Million Jews in Muslim countries who lived there with minimal issues upwards of the early 1950's. The battle cry of death to the Jews didn't arrive in force until after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and was brought into the region by Europeans. The European Christians brought their propaganda into the region and spread their hate.

 

[Estro Felino]

Even with all the verses there, most Muslims did not kill Jews. Think about it, there was an excess of a Million Jews in Muslim countries who lived there with minimal issues upwards of the early 1950's. The battle cry of death to the Jews didn't arrive in force until after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and was brought into the region by Europeans. The European Christians brought their propaganda into the region and spread their hate.

wow....the Bible teaches Universal Love and you claim that we brought the hate?
In our Christian countries, we Christians finance mosques and we bring the hatred?

 

[Tali018]

wow....the Bible teaches Universal Love and you claim that we brought the hate?
In our Christian countries, we Christians finance mosques and we bring the hatred?

What is preached in the NT, is not the same as what is or was done in practice.
Christians and Anti-Semitism: A Calendar of Jewish Persecution

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes, the difference is that we Catholics say that the Crusades are devilish, anti-Christian and so on. And that the Vatican was evil incarnate in the Middle Ages.

we take position firmly and passionately.

Speak for yourself. History isn't black and white. Much of the history taught now is very biased and is essentially a caricature.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Even with all the verses there, most Muslims did not kill Jews. Think about it, there was an excess of a Million Jews in Muslim countries who lived there with minimal issues upwards of the early 1950's. The battle cry of death to the Jews didn't arrive in force until after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and was brought into the region by Europeans. The European Christians brought their propaganda into the region and spread their hate.

What is preached in the NT, is not the same as what is or was done in practice.
Christians and Anti-Semitism: A Calendar of Jewish Persecution

This thread is about Islam, not Christianity. Funny how many of the Islam-defenders always resort to trying to bash Christianity to deflect from criticism of Islam. Stay on topic.

 

[YmirGF]

Speak for yourself. History isn't black and white. Much of the history taught now is very biased and is essentially a caricature.

Indeed. Much is made of the fiasco that many of the Crusades became while ignoring the logistics of carrying out a campaign in those times. The Crusaders, more often than not, were consciously trying to stop the encroachment of Islam into formerly Christian lands.

 

[Tali018]

This thread is about Islam, not Christianity. Funny how many of the Islam-defenders always resort to trying to bash Christianity to deflect from criticism of Islam. Stay on topic

Who made you the lord of discussion on this thread? Since Christianity does have a part in the discussion of this thread, then it will be discussed. Your attempt to censor what is discussed is what is off topic.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Who made you the lord of discussion on this thread? Since Christianity does have a part in the discussion of this thread, then it will be discussed. Your attempt to censor what is discussed is what is off topic.

I'm not censoring anything. I'm just pointing something out that I see so much that it's laughable.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm not censoring anything. I'm just pointing something out that I see so much that it's laughable.

It is a very common tactic used, Frankie and is designed to minimize criticism with the more unsavory aspects of Islam by showing how bad Christianity was hundreds of years ago. The attempt to place the blame on Europe for the antisemitism in the Middle East and North Africa before, during and after the creation of the state of Israel is particularly egregious and nuanced disinformation, at best.

 

[Tali018]

It is a very common tactic used, Frankie and is designed to minimize criticism with the more unsavory aspects of Islam by showing how bad Christianity was hundreds of years ago. The attempt to place the blame on Europe for the antisemitism in the Middle East and North Africa before, during and after the creation of the state of Israel is particularly egregious and nuanced disinformation, at best.

it's not a tactic. It's an issue when one see's reality from one side of coin yet is not open minded to see things from the other.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Hay I think this could be the very groundwork for that Reformation. It seems like ISIS is being treated as the last straw.

Let's hope so.

 

[YmirGF]

it's not a tactic. It's an issue when one see's reality from one side of coin yet is not open minded to see things from the other.

If you say so.