Islam and people who wear the hijab

[Draupadi]

I am no longer a Muslim Maldini . And in many cases Muslims prioritise the Hadith above the Quran. Like praying five times instead of three, stoning adulterers and killing for apostasy.

 

[Looncall]

I really have problem with the methods by which the hadiths were considered genuine. But the scholars seem to be OK with that and even genuine hadiths condone bad stuff. But the thing that perplexes me that there is no existence of sources about Muhammad's life other than the Hadith so I have to go with it. Even though the Hadith contradicts the Quran in many aspects, maybe Muhammad changed his mind afterwards about the things he had previously said were religious laws from the Quran, like five times of prayers everyday instead of three. And the Hadith always have details that are left out in the Quran like partial events. Previously I ignored them but can't anymore because they seem to match so well.

Perhaps there are no actual facts to had, just fictions. All this sounds like arguing about something in a novel that the author did not specify.

 

[Sabour]

I am no longer a Muslim Maldini . And in many cases Muslims prioritise the Hadith above the Quran. Like praying five times instead of three, stoning adulterers and killing for apostasy.

Any one who does that is not a Muslim

 

[Sabour]

You said that freeing slaves will create chaos. I just gave the solution for that.

I have heard many arguments for condoning slavery and none of them seemed rational or humane. And you didn't reply to my refutations against your points. Sorry sugarcoat all you want that it's equal rights and all and they can be freed, but you will never understand how a woman feels when all the male members of her family has been killed, assets seized, forced to be unpaid servant and sex object. There is NO future for the slaves, male or female, unless their owner have hearts. Even there is a hadith says that a slave is cursed if he/she runs away from his/her master. Even the Quran looks down upon them saying that they are only equal to the free people if they are Muslims.

At that time the women you are talking about had no place to go and no one to care for them. Life in the seventh century was not like now.

What we are referring as slaves are people who are taken under the custody of Islam because they have no where else to go. Read about how Islam treated them and what rights Islam gave them. Compare it to what any army would do today to war captives. ( am not saying that slaves are war captives)


The general idea around here is X is bad if Islam is doing it. X is normal if anyone else is doing it.

That is the trend in these days.

 

[Draupadi]

Nobody to look after the women? What about the men who never participated in the battle? Couldn't they look after themselves and the women? Agreed it was for the past but why a rule applicable for the past included in a book meant for all eternity? And the price to be looked after (for the women) is to be a concubine? Why not spare the wealth and land of the enemies so that the women and children can at least feed themselves?

 

[Sabour]

Nobody to look after the women? What about the men who never participated in the battle? Couldn't they look after themselves and the women? Agreed it was for the past but why a rule applicable for the past included in a book meant for all eternity? And the price to be looked after (for the women) is to be a concubine? Why not spare the wealth and land of the enemies so that the women and children can at least feed themselves?

Where does the Quraan say that you have to take slaves from wars?

And Muslims used to take them only when the enemy is doing so.

Some people used to take captives after war and some not. Muslims used to do this only when the other side is doing this also.

 

[Draupadi]

OK then from where do you get slaves? The Hadith clarifies that it is both from the marketplace and war. Sorry, but you already answered your question, which I noticed late. The Muslims took it when the enemies did. Yes the Muslim's enemies eat porks so they should too. But isn't Islam a religion of peace and freedom? Then why keep slaves or treat the females as concubines? I don't want to repeat it again. It is the duty of the followers of a humane religion to spare the families of the warriors, no matter how tempting it is. Forget about the battlefield are human beings commodities to be bought and sold?

 

[Sabour]

OK then from where do you get slaves? The Hadith clarifies that it is both from the marketplace and war. Sorry, but you already answered your question, which I noticed late. The Muslims took it when the enemies did. Yes the Muslim's enemies eat porks so they should too. But isn't Islam a religion of peace and freedom? Then why keep slaves or treat the females as concubines? I don't want to repeat it again. It is the duty of the followers of a humane religion to spare the families of the warriors, no matter how tempting it is. Forget about the battlefield are human beings commodities to be bought and sold?

You cant make similarities between pork and slaves subject.

One has to be logical. It doesn't make sense to go into a war where you're life is on the line as being slave and tell the people we will not be taking slaves. It is a disadvantage for the fighters.

Regarding the rest, again Islam didn't create slavery. It was dealing with it step by step. It closed all the ways in which slaves come from except for the case of wars where the enemy is taking you as a slave too.

Things are not done magically. Things are done wisely and through steps.

Try to search how much love was between the muslims and their slaves before they eventually released them.

See what rights Islam has given to the slaves.

Check out how muslims used to go to the market place and buy slaves in quantities and release them as they are standing.

 

[Looncall]

Where does the Quraan say that you have to take slaves from wars?

And Muslims used to take them only when the enemy is doing so.

Some people used to take captives after war and some not. Muslims used to do this only when the other side is doing this also.

Muslim society was awash in slavery until recently, when other people obliged them to give up their slave raiding. Now it only happens where there are helpless victims to be had. Slaves are even commonplace in the Arabian Nights. Muslims have been a pestilence in that way for centuries.

I suppose it comes from muslim arrogance that considers non-believers inferior.

 

[Draupadi]

OK by giving the example of pork I just wanted to say you don't have to be nasty like your enemies. Sparing the innocent family members is a sign of humanity which befits a superior religion, as you claim Islam is. Yes slaves were freed but the Quran never says that slavery is fully forbidden and that one should always strive to free as much as possible. It is left to the conscience of the owners whether to free them or not. Islam didn't start slavery but failed to stop it. If God would have announced 100 lashes or hellfire for keeping slaves or allowing slavery then maybe things would have been better. But no you get burned in hellfire for disbelieving in God Who is free from all needs, and not treating fellow human beings poorly!

By the way can you show me sources which says that the Muslims mostly freed their slaves? Please allow me the liberty to assume that it is the Hadith. Then I can show you from the same source where they were kept and ill-treated at the same time.

 

[Sabour]

OK by giving the example of pork I just wanted to say you don't have to be nasty like your enemies. Sparing the innocent family members is a sign of humanity which befits a superior religion, as you claim Islam is. Yes slaves were freed but the Quran never says that slavery is fully forbidden and that one should always strive to free as much as possible. It is left to the conscience of the owners whether to free them or not. Islam didn't start slavery but failed to stop it. If God would have announced 100 lashes or hellfire for keeping slaves or allowing slavery then maybe things would have been better. But no you get burned in hellfire for disbelieving in God Who is free from all needs, and not treating fellow human beings poorly!

By the way can you show me sources which says that the Muslims mostly freed their slaves? Please allow me the liberty to assume that it is the Hadith. Then I can show you from the same source where they were kept and ill-treated at the same time.

You are wrong Islam did free slaves.

Here are two sources

Human equality and the liberation of slaves in Islam.  A slave can request and earn his freedom in Islam.

My rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's "Fully Detailed Or Incomplete?" article.

 

[Draupadi]

When did I deny they didn't? But not always. Ask anyone around and they will tell you that slavery has existed in Islamic lands up until the modern age. That might be like hundreds of years. But if it were not for contemporary movements slavery would have still continued. Freeing slaves is an option and eliminating it is not mandatory. So you can't take full credit for abolishing slavery which the Quran never condones. Freeing slaves and abolishing slavery is not the same thing.

 

[Sabour]

When did I deny they didn't? But not always. Ask anyone around and they will tell you that slavery has existed in Islamic lands up until the modern age. That might be like hundreds of years. But if it were not for contemporary movements slavery would have still continued. Freeing slaves is an option and eliminating it is not mandatory. So you can't take full credit for abolishing slavery which the Quran never condones. Freeing slaves and abolishing slavery is not the same thing.

First there were people who sell themselves and become slaves because they had no other option to survive.

Second I already said why Islam didn't stop slavery at once.

 

[Draupadi]

So just because they sell themselves you will allow it? And sorry most people who are slaves are coerced into it. Why do you intentionally turn a blind eye to it? I am repeating again ISLAM DOESN'T WANT TO END SLAVERY. If that was the case the Muslims would have done everything to even prevent the voluntary ones. But why would they? They are not going to hell for it are they?

 

[Sabour]

So just because they sell themselves you will allow it? And sorry most people who are slaves are coerced into it. Why do you intentionally turn a blind eye to it? I am repeating again ISLAM DOESN'T WANT TO END SLAVERY. If that was the case the Muslims would have done everything to even prevent the voluntary ones. But why would they? They are not going to hell for it are they?

They already do that by paying Zakat and giving charity. Being a slave was a way to find a living at that time. How if one wants to do that will not be allowed to?

ISLAM DOES WANT TO END SLAVERY AND IT DID.

 

[Looncall]

First there were people who sell themselves and become slaves because they had no other option to survive.

Second I already said why Islam didn't stop slavery at once.

Muslims have only stopped slavery when forced to by others. They were the most enthusiastic slave traders since the ancient Romans. You cannot sugar-coat that, no matter how embarassing it is to you.

 

[Sabour]

Muslims have only stopped slavery when forced to by others. They were the most enthusiastic slave traders since the ancient Romans. You cannot sugar-coat that, no matter how embarassing it is to you.

Totally false, Read both of these links that Ive already posted

Human equality and the liberation of slaves in Islam.  A slave can request and earn his freedom in Islam.

My rebuttal to Sam Shamoun's "Fully Detailed Or Incomplete?" article.

 

[Draupadi]

Sorry I agree with Looncall. Islam never stopped slavery. Read on the Net and you will see many learned Islamic scholars support slavery. They claim that slaves can be freed but never said that it should be abolished.

And if you think that you are expiated from your sins of enslaving someone via charity, then I must say you don't care for the lives of other human beings who are slaves, as long as you are safe and Islam reigns. Because IMHO to you Islam is above everything even the welfare of others, and you deny some of it's bad rulings just to suppress your conscience. Zeal is good as long as it is channeled in good manner and moderately.

 

[Draupadi]

One-answer, I was once in your place. I was a Sunni Muslim and I was OK with the fact that God hated the polytheists and will roast them in hellfire for eternity, NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY WERE. I used to tell myself, "Well if those polytheists want to save themselves then they can just do that by accepting Islam!" I was a shameless and heartless being then! Then when I read how the Quran commands the male Muslims to have sex with their female slaves without marriage and what the Hadith tells about how the female captives were treated, I cried. I put myself in their place and in the shoes of the polytheists who will burn forever in hell. I imagined their pain. And I was no longer the same.

 

[Sabour]

Sorry I agree with Looncall. Islam never stopped slavery. Read on the Net and you will see many learned Islamic scholars support slavery. They claim that slaves can be freed but never said that it should be abolished.

And if you think that you are expiated from your sins of enslaving someone via charity, then I must say you don't care for the lives of other human beings who are slaves, as long as you are safe and Islam reigns. Because IMHO to you Islam is above everything even the welfare of others, and you deny some of it's bad rulings just to suppress your conscience. Zeal is good as long as it is channeled in good manner and moderately.

I keep going around the same point. I have already explained the Islamic view towards slavery and said why Islam didn't stop it immediately.

I don't want to repeat myself again because I think I have nothing new to add.

Again my"long" reply covers your question. I think you've read it.