Islam and Women : The Head Scarf

[Octavia156]

you speak about what people say about islam not what is really islam about
there is different between traditions in some places in the world and islam rules
and for the virgin issue you talk about , it is about men and women
so simple rule which is sex is only between married people
which lead to normal and stable family
this is the goal of it
and about the kill you talk about , there is no right for family to kill one of its member or any one else for any reason
please try to focus about what islam order not what traditions in some places in the world say

I heard it here:
[youtube]vOsZpOft3Dc[/youtube]


from 00:30s in...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The main reason as been clarified is not concerned with men, however as mentioned before this is just a part of the whole thing. Meaning that usually the way we dress sends a message to people. So, this particular dress usually sends the message that the women who wear it is hoping for. Dressing modestly in general, not particularly covering the hair, as hijab doesn't mean covering the hair.

My point is that this is not a reason to wear hijab, its just something that usually comes with wearing it.

And what message is that? The clothes we wear. It sends a message - I can dig that. But to tell a woman that she ought to send the "right" message is a little coercive, no?

There are Muslim women in this thread who are plainly saying that women are indeed pressured to dress modestly - and is it simply to send a message to the public that they are marriageable? That they are "pure" or undefiled? What if a woman wants to wear hijab because it simply looks great on her? Is she wrong for her motivations?

Forgive my questions, but I have a few more:

What does preserving a woman's purity mean? (I realize I sound redundant )

What is expected of men to show they are sexually pure?

Is more expected out of women in terms of dress, speech, and/or behavior concerning purity or chastity? If yes, why? If not, how are men pressured?

 

[.lava]

Muslim women can dress how they see fit too, what makes you think they can't?

good question and it is asked so many times but some would keep talking on our behalf as if we could not express how we feel or what we think. and they defend our freedom

i love hijab. i love wearing modest. it is my personal choice and my choice is bothering some people, well, i don't care. does not bother me what they choose to wear. but i would suggest them to take their hands off from my modesty and hijab of modest Muslim ladies or they should welcome those who oppress women and would like to force them to wear this or that. noone can have it both ways

.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

good question and it is asked so many times but some would keep talking on our behalf as if we could not express how we feel or what we think. and they defend our freedom

i love hijab. i love wearing modest. it is my personal choice and my choice is bothering some people, well, i don't care. does not bother me what they choose to wear. but i would suggest them to take their hands off from my modesty and hijab of modest Muslim ladies or they should welcome those who oppress women and would like to force them to wear this or that. noone can have it both ways

.

My dear, I'd never wish to "liberate" you from modest dress. YOU should always decide what you want to wear. And overall.....A woman should never be coerced in or out of her clothing of choice. Never. That's been my point for the longest time, and I still feel that way. A woman isn't "liberated" if she is told she must shed her clothing and show skin in order to be considered autonomous. But a woman also isn't "liberated" if she is told she must put on a covering in order to show she's valuable by certain standards.

My point has been this - hands off women. Let us all wear what we wish. On this I agree with you....you really can't have it both ways.

 

[Azakel]

Seriously and sincerely , you're disgusting.

Oh and you dont add anything to the thread.

Nice personal attack on a member. I'd say you added nothing by posting this, all you do is show hate. You can't sincerely tell someone there disgusting , just rude.

 

[.lava]

My dear, I'd never wish to "liberate" you from modest dress. YOU should always decide what you want to wear. And overall.....A woman should never be coerced in or out of her clothing of choice. Never. That's been my point for the longest time, and I still feel that way. A woman isn't "liberated" if she is told she must shed her clothing and show skin in order to be considered autonomous. But a woman also isn't "liberated" if she is told she must put on a covering in order to show she's valuable by certain standards.

My point has been this - hands off women. Let us all wear what we wish. On this I agree with you....you really can't have it both ways.

hmm .. i was not really thinking of you, Mystic. i believe we would most likely agree about human rights. i was referring to -whoever- thinks all female Muslims who wear hijab are forced to wear hijab. for some reason some people can not believe a girl could chose to wear modest and if a woman wear modest then she must be forced...etc. that is what i react. it is not about you, really. i apologize if i caused this misunderstanding

.

 

[Meow Mix]

Many many westerners both females and males tend to hold this twisted thinking regarding Hijab , i.e that we're wearing it to help men lower their gaze and preserve their chastity, lol

To help WHAT?? No!! Thats not what we want at all , in fact Hijab is more about not caring about what men think lol so the idea is basically wrong but let me explain more specifically:

Hijab is about OUR protection, OUR personality , OUR preservation and chastity. You think if I wear Hijab, sick men wont have sexual desires towards women anymore ? Never! Sick men are sick men, but at least they wont have sexual desire about ME.

That makes some sense, but I was mostly objecting to the fact that there are some places where women are coerced into wearing it if they don't want to -- by family, friends, or in extreme cases by the government (i.e. Taliban). I understand that the Taliban doesn't represent Islam and that just because some loud-mouthed extremists Muslims draw negative attention to the religion, that doesn't mean all Muslims are like that at all.

I'd bet the average Muslim is as temperate in mood and fervor as the average western Christian, which isn't a bad thing for either group.

But my point was just that when so much emphasis is put on the way a woman dresses by her society the social pressure can be virtually identical to "forcing" her to do something. I'm sure it differs by area, though.

Our bodies naturally atract men, and when its happens men would do anything to get you: wether by abusing you emotionally ( if they're smart) or physically ( if they're dumb and dangerous). And Im sure you know how words like I love you or you're the women of my life , if said by guys we like, turn us to dumb little girls which you can shape as it fits you lol.

Only if you're naive, though -- I've gone all my life without wearing Hijab and yeah, I've had to deal with unwanted male attention but it's not that bad -- I can shrug 'em off and if they don't know when to quit I can just tell them bluntly that I'm not interested and never will be.

You may find it cruel, men may find you impolite but thats whats Hijab is all about: You dont care a minute about what they think as long as they're letting you alone.

Yeah, that totally makes sense to me of course -- but I can do that without Hijab, too. I 100% support someone's decisions for themselves to wear Hijab of course, I'm just worried that social pressures from family, friends, etc. makes more women do it than really want to.

And personally, I think the idea of Hijab is the most connected idea to the ideology of Feminism, since we are the ones hurting men more than any presumed Feminist and thats what Feminism is all about

Haha! Well I don't think feminism is about hurting men, more it's about female equality with men in a world that's thought women are inferior for the last few thousand years...

I'm a physics grad student; some men say that girls can't do spatial thinking and abstract mathematics as well as guys -- I'm proving them wrong every day, so I'm doing my part too.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

hmm .. i was not really thinking of you, Mystic. i believe we would most likely agree about human rights. i was referring to -whoever- thinks all female Muslims who wear hijab are forced to wear hijab. for some reason some people can not believe a girl could chose to wear modest and if a woman wear modest then she must be forced...etc. that is what i react. it is not about you, really. i apologize if i caused this misunderstanding

.

No need to apologize, beautiful. :flower:

I understand though. It's maddening when I see laws go into effect forcing women not to wear hijab. On the other hand, I'd love to go out with just a negligee on without getting arrested.

 

[Sahar]

Very pretty avitar.
Alluring even.

As a bisexual woman
it's very easy for me to find her face
very attractive....
and then
want to see what's underneath.

Perhaps unwrapping her garment a bit at a time...
kissing her neck...

Sometimes it is actually MORE provocative
when a woman is covered up in such a lovely way...

Oh God!! :run:

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That makes some sense, but I was mostly objecting to the fact that there are some places where women are coerced into wearing it if they don't want to -- by family, friends, or in extreme cases by the government (i.e. Taliban). I understand that the Taliban doesn't represent Islam and that just because some loud-mouthed extremists Muslims draw negative attention to the religion, that doesn't mean all Muslims are like that at all.

I'd bet the average Muslim is as temperate in mood and fervor as the average western Christian, which isn't a bad thing for either group.

But my point was just that when so much emphasis is put on the way a woman dresses by her society the social pressure can be virtually identical to "forcing" her to do something. I'm sure it differs by area, though.

I agree.

Only if you're naive, though -- I've gone all my life without wearing Hijab and yeah, I've had to deal with unwanted male attention but it's not that bad -- I can shrug 'em off and if they don't know when to quit I can just tell them bluntly that I'm not interested and never will be.

Same here. But interestingly enough, I tend to get probably just as much attention from women as I do men. Men are easy to deal with for the most part. I'm so up front with them that it tends to make their heads spin, and that's where I think women falter a bit in our culture. We're not encouraged to be as direct as we should, IMO, but I see signs of this changing. It comes from a self-awareness of our own boundaries and the ability and the resolve to communicate those boundaries clearly.

99% of the time, men comply.

Yeah, that totally makes sense to me of course -- but I can do that without Hijab, too. I 100% support someone's decisions for themselves to wear Hijab of course, I'm just worried that social pressures from family, friends, etc. makes more women do it than really want to.

True dat. It goes both ways, too. I have just as much trouble with systems that make women feel pressured to "take it off" as I do with systems that make women feel pressured to "cover it up."

Haha! Well I don't think feminism is about hurting men, more it's about female equality with men in a world that's thought women are inferior for the last few thousand years...

I'm a physics grad student; some men say that girls can't do spatial thinking and abstract mathematics as well as guys -- I'm proving them wrong every day, so I'm doing my part too.

I was once an engineering student, and before that a mathematics whiz through high school (I still find myself thinking about going back to school when I'm retired, and enroll in math classes....just for fun. Really. No, really.). I agree with you about the definition of feminism. It isn't anti-male. It's anti-misogyny.

 

[Meow Mix]

I heard it here:
[youtube]vOsZpOft3Dc[/youtube]


from 00:30s in...

This video disgusts me; not really at Islam since as the guy points out these honor-killings are against religious law (which is good) but because of the fact this crap exists at all boils my blood.

Sexual repression causes more harm than good -- people can talk about the atomic family all they want but it's a fantasy. Humans are sexual beings, and girls should be able to pleasure themselves if they want to especially if they're making the decision to be chaste until marriage.

I personally believe couples should have safe sex before marriage and live together a little before marriage because it's unrealistic to just take two people who barely interact outside of courting for a while and then bam -- they're stuck together like hot glue for eternity? That's a ticking time bomb if you ask me.

Responsible, mature adults can live together and experience each other sexually and find out whether or not they have a lasting bond -- that makes more sense to me than essentially playing the lottery and hoping you work out with someone that you've never been intimate with (not just sexual intimacy, but living with them intimacy).

 

[Cypress]

There is a problem with the whole concept of veiling: it does not work.
Who has just a little idea of how sexuality works knows that veiling something makes it even more interesting.
Even more so when you veil someone.
The very question "How might she look like?" together with fantasies about the potential beauty hidden from his views can arouse the same sexual interst in a man as seeing her in lingerie.

I think the true reasons for covering have nothing to do with sex, it is all about power.
In Islam the public sphere belongs to males only, so it has to be made sure that a woman
a.) doesn't appear there
b.) if she does then only under conditions inflicted by men
c.) does not appear in public as an individual i.e. she has to be stripped of her identity before entering the "male" sphere.
That is also why forms of veiling exist that cover the face: no face = no identity

 

[Badran]

And what message is that? The clothes we wear. It sends a message - I can dig that. But to tell a woman that she ought to send the "right" message is a little coercive, no?

There is no forcing in this issue. This is a promoted thing, thats a part of a whole way of thinking, that is a part of Islam. It is prescribed in Islam, she has every right to do as she wishes however, follow it or ignore it. There isn't a specified type of dressing neither, just a modest dress, in whichever way you see fit (assuming that she already chose to wear modestly).

There are Muslim women in this thread who are plainly saying that women are indeed pressured to dress modestly

Yes, sometimes of course. Which is a negative thing that occurs in society. This isn't a good thing or the way it should be. Remember also that this act of oppression towards women is performed in many different ways. As not4me mentioned, veiled women face lots of oppression too the other way around. Sometimes from governments.

and is it simply to send a message to the public that they are marriageable? That they are "pure" or undefiled?

Well, i didn't catch this part to be honest, i didn't notice any woman here who said that they should do this as a message to the public that they are marriageable or pure or whatever. I don't agree with that idea. As not veiled women are just as marriageable.

What if a woman wants to wear hijab because it simply looks great on her? Is she wrong for her motivations?

It wouldn't be wrong, but it just wouldn't be done for religious reasons in that case. I mean assuming that is the only reason she wants to wear it, and that she is not doing it for God. But she is not wrong in any sense.

Forgive my questions, but I have a few more:

Ask as much as you like

What does preserving a woman's purity mean? (I realize I sound redundant )

I don't really know what was meant when that word was used, neither does it fit well with how i would describe things, so i wouldn't know what it means. As i don't see immodest women as impure.

What is expected of men to show they are sexually pure?

Is more expected out of women in terms of dress, speech, and/or behavior concerning purity or chastity? If yes, why? If not, how are men pressured?

They are required the same in every aspect. The only difference is the level of clothes.

Women and men in Islam share different requirements in different parts. Men are required to do lots of things that women aren't too. However, it is made very clear that they are both equal. Different requirements in some aspects, just comes from the fact that they do have different attributes in some aspects.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mod advisory,pease refrain from personal remarks and address the OP

 

[Badran]

good question and it is asked so many times but some would keep talking on our behalf as if we could not express how we feel or what we think. and they defend our freedom

i love hijab. i love wearing modest. it is my personal choice and my choice is bothering some people, well, i don't care. does not bother me what they choose to wear. but i would suggest them to take their hands off from my modesty and hijab of modest Muslim ladies or they should welcome those who oppress women and would like to force them to wear this or that. noone can have it both ways

.

Yeah i agree. And i really wish to know why lots of people seem to think that Muslim women have no choice or are just the naive victims of men. Its kind of surprising really to expect that all these women without exception are just all victims, and that non of them is doing what they want, and all are obviously naive and not strong enough to stand up to the oppression of men.

 

[beenie]

there seems to be an overwhelming opinion that the only reason the hijab has been implemented is because men are animals, so it's the duty of the women to cover up. This opinion has been roundly refuted by every muslim on this thread...I don't think there's anything else left to say on it.

I find it amusing that only people from the west find that a woman covering herself up of her own free will is in some way more offensive to their sense of morality and character than a woman who does not.

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here...

Pardon me, but I hear Muslim women saying that they not only wear coverings because of submission to Allah, but to "protect" themselves from disgusting stares by men. And to ensure that they are not considered an object by men.

I hear from Muslim women that the hijab gives protection time and time again.

So, if the only reason isn't protection from a man's stares or from objectification, then what else is the protection from?



No, I applaud a woman who does it from her own free will. As a self-identified feminist, I fully support a woman to dress how she wants out of her own volition. But I also will call out an ideology if 1)it is not based on reality and 2)if said ideology scapegoats women.

Pay attention. I have always supported women's rights to wear head coverings and face veils. Always.

i too support women wearing what they choose to wear. i have issues when Muslim women are judged for what they DON'T wear...as if they are somehow less pious because of the absence of a headscarf.

Yes, according to the fact that we think hijab is a requirement, the woman not wearing it in our eyes would be not following god in this specific area, as do everybody else. None of us is doing everything we should do, so a woman wearing wearing hijab is not in any position to judge or pray for a woman that don't, any more than she should judge and pray for herself.

i agree. the old "i'll pray for you" some love to say to non-hijabis is condescending and insulting. i can pray for myself...and so can all other women.

The main reason as been clarified is not concerned with men, however as mentioned before this is just a part of the whole thing. Meaning that usually the way we dress sends a message to people. So, this particular dress usually sends the message that the women who wear it is hoping for. Dressing modestly in general, not particularly covering the hair, as hijab doesn't mean covering the hair.

My point is that this is not a reason to wear hijab, its just something that usually comes with wearing it.

i can see your point.

good question and it is asked so many times but some would keep talking on our behalf as if we could not express how we feel or what we think. and they defend our freedom

i love hijab. i love wearing modest. it is my personal choice and my choice is bothering some people, well, i don't care. does not bother me what they choose to wear. but i would suggest them to take their hands off from my modesty and hijab of modest Muslim ladies or they should welcome those who oppress women and would like to force them to wear this or that. noone can have it both ways

.

i applaud your choice too. as long as people can stop judging others...that would be great.

My dear, I'd never wish to "liberate" you from modest dress. YOU should always decide what you want to wear. And overall.....A woman should never be coerced in or out of her clothing of choice. Never. That's been my point for the longest time, and I still feel that way. A woman isn't "liberated" if she is told she must shed her clothing and show skin in order to be considered autonomous. But a woman also isn't "liberated" if she is told she must put on a covering in order to show she's valuable by certain standards.

My point has been this - hands off women. Let us all wear what we wish. On this I agree with you....you really can't have it both ways.

it's unfortunate we can't have it both ways... no one should be forced to wear or shed anything.

hmm .. i was not really thinking of you, Mystic. i believe we would most likely agree about human rights. i was referring to -whoever- thinks all female Muslims who wear hijab are forced to wear hijab. for some reason some people can not believe a girl could chose to wear modest and if a woman wear modest then she must be forced...etc. that is what i react. it is not about you, really. i apologize if i caused this misunderstanding

.

you're right. i'd say 99% of the women i know chose to wear the headscarf themselves. some even had to CONVINCE their husbands.

Yeah i agree. And i really wish to know why lots of people seem to think that Muslim women have no choice or are just the naive victims of men. Its kind of surprising really to expect that all these women without exception are just all victims, and that non of them is doing what they want, and all are obviously naive and not strong enough to stand up to the oppression of men.

i hope this changes.

 

[beenie]

I heard it here:
[youtube]vOsZpOft3Dc[/youtube]


from 00:30s in...

that's one man's twisted view. that video is asinine.

 

[Meow Mix]

If I weren't worried I'd somehow offend somebody -- being an atheist -- I'd give a hijab a shot for a week just to experience the social difference with how I'm treated. Maybe I'm missing out on something awesome.

 

[beenie]

If I weren't worried I'd somehow offend somebody -- being an atheist -- I'd give a hijab a shot for a week just to experience the social difference with how I'm treated. Maybe I'm missing out on something awesome.

i've worn it (the headscarf) for 8.5 years. it's been a mixed bag; i have been treated like i don't speak English, i've been treated nicely...and i've gotten some pretty eery stares. i have also gotten plenty of smiles too, from both Muslims and non-Muslims.

i find that i have to go out of my way to be outgoing and smile...which isn't a bad thing...in order to get people to understand that i am just like them, only with a headscarf.

the one thing i know is different is the reaction from other Muslims. with the headscarf, you are recognized as a Muslim and will most likely be greeted by other Muslims (i'm talking about strangers). it's like a secret handshake. without it, more than likely you won't be addressed if they don't know you. i'm of mixed heritage, so i'm not "obvious" without the headscarf.

kwim?

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Haha! Well I don't think feminism is about hurting men, more it's about female equality with men in a world that's thought women are inferior for the last few thousand years...

And thats why we wanna hurt them by giving our bodies more importance than it has before Islam and preserve it from eeeyes lol , i.e you wont get anything to see until you are ready to live with me forever , whats more cruel than that?

I'm a physics grad student; some men say that girls can't do spatial thinking and abstract mathematics as well as guys -- I'm proving them wrong every day, so I'm doing my part too.

And each day I do the same by getting the first grades in my uni , maths and computer sciences branch Seems we have something in common lol