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Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

Do Islamic beliefs about Noah contradict science?


  • Total voters
    21

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
There has been much discussion on RF about the stories of Genesis and how Christians make sense of scripture in the light of modern science. I thought it would be interesting to examine Muslim beliefs as there are many similarities between what Christians and Muslims believe in regards Noah.

Noah (Nuh in Arabic) is an important character in Islamic tradition, as well as in Christianity and Judaism. The exact time period when Noah lived is unknown, but according to tradition, it is estimated to be ten generations or ages after Adam (who is also the same Adam in Genesis). It is reported that Noah lived to be 950 years old (Qur'an 29:14).

It is believed that Noah was a Prophet of Allah and his people lived in the northern part of ancient Mesopotamia an arid, dry area, several hundred kilometers from the sea. The Qur'an mentions that the ark landed on "Mount Judi" (Qur'an 11:44), which many Muslims believe is in present-day Turkey. Noah was married and had four sons.

Noah called upon his people to give up their idol-worship and worship the One True God Allah. He preached this message for many years. However the people rejected Noah's message and ridiculed Him. It is described in the Quran how people thrust their fingers into their ears so as not to hear his voice, and when he continued to preach to them using signs, they then covered themselves with their garments so as not to even see him.

Allah told Noah that the people had transgressed their limits and would be punished as an example for future generations. Allah inspired Noah to build an ark, which he completed despite great difficulty. After the ark was completed, Noah filled it with pairs of living creatures and he and his followers boarded. Soon, the land was drenched with rain and a flood destroyed everything on land. Noah and his followers were safe on the ark, but one of his own sons and his wife were among the disbelievers destroyed.

The story of Noah is mentioned in the Quran in several places, most notably in the Surah Noah (Chapter 71). The story is expanded upon in other sections as well.

"The people of Nuh rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: 'Will you not fear Allah? I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust. So fear Allah, and obey me. No reward to I ask of you for it; my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds" (26:105-109).

"He said, 'Oh my Lord! I have called to my people night and day. But my call only increases their flight from the right way. And every time I have called to them, that You might forgive them, they have thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance" (Quran 71:5-7).

"But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark. But We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!" (7:64).

The flood that destroyed the people of Noah is described in the Qur'an as a punishment for people who disbelieved in Allah and the message brought by Prophet Noah. There has been some debate amonsgt Muslims over whether this was a global event or an isolated one. According to Islamic teachings, the Flood was intended as a lesson and punishment for a single group of wicked, disbelieving people, and it is not assumed to be a global event, as is believed in other faiths. However, many ancient Muslim scholars interpreted the Qur'anic verses as describing a global flood, which modern scientists theorize is impossible according to the archaeological and fossil record. Other scholars state that the geographic impact of the flood is unknown, and could have been local.

So having considered the uncertainties within Islam about the global nature of the flood, how about the practicalities of building the ark and gathering all the animals. How does living for 950 years work?

Baha'is, like Muslims and Christians believe Noah was a real prophet, but much of the story was allegorical and not to be taken literally. There wasn't a world wide flood and He certainly didn't live to be 950 years of age.
 
Last edited:

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
There has been much discussion on RF about the stories of Genesis and how Christians make sense of scripture in the light of modern science. I thought it would be interesting to examine Muslim beliefs as there are many similarities between what Christians and Muslims believe in regards Noah.

Noah (Nuh in Arabic) is an important character in Islamic tradition, as well as in Christianity and Judaism. The exact time period when Noah lived is unknown, but according to tradition, it is estimated to be ten generations or ages after Adam (who is also the same Adam in Genesis). It is reported that Noah lived to be 950 years old (Qur'an 29:14).

It is believed that Noah was a Prophet of Allah and his people lived in the northern part of ancient Mesopotamia an arid, dry area, several hundred kilometers from the sea. The Qur'an mentions that the ark landed on "Mount Judi" (Qur'an 11:44), which many Muslims believe is in present-day Turkey. Noah was married and had four sons.

Noah called upon his people to give up their idol-worship and worship the One True God Allah. He preached this message for many years. However the people rejected Noah's message and ridiculed Him. It is described in the Quran how people thrust their fingers into their ears so as not to hear his voice, and when he continued to preach to them using signs, they then covered themselves with their garments so as not to even see him.

Allah told Noah that the people had transgressed their limits and would be punished as an example for future generations. Allah inspired Noah to build an ark, which he completed despite great difficulty. After the ark was completed, Noah filled it with pairs of living creatures and he and his followers boarded. Soon, the land was drenched with rain and a flood destroyed everything on land. Noah and his followers were safe on the ark, but one of his own sons and his wife were among the disbelievers destroyed.

The story of Noah is mentioned in the Quran in several places, most notably in the Surah Noah (Chapter 71). The story is expanded upon in other sections as well.

"The people of Nuh rejected the apostles. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: 'Will you not fear Allah? I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust. So fear Allah, and obey me. No reward to I ask of you for it; my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds" (26:105-109).

"He said, 'Oh my Lord! I have called to my people night and day. But my call only increases their flight from the right way. And every time I have called to them, that You might forgive them, they have thrust their fingers into their ears, covered themselves up with their garments, grown obstinate, and given themselves up to arrogance" (Quran 71:5-7).

"But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark. But We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!" (7:64).

The flood that destroyed the people of Noah is described in the Qur'an as a punishment for people who disbelieved in Allah and the message brought by Prophet Noah. There has been some debate amonsgt Muslims over whether this was a global event or an isolated one. According to Islamic teachings, the Flood was intended as a lesson and punishment for a single group of wicked, disbelieving people, and it is not assumed to be a global event, as is believed in other faiths. However, many ancient Muslim scholars interpreted the Qur'anic verses as describing a global flood, which modern scientists theorize is impossible according to the archaeological and fossil record. Other scholars state that the geographic impact of the flood is unknown, and could have been local.

So having considered the uncertainties within Islam about the global nature of the flood, how about the practicalities of building the ark and gathering all the animals. How does living for 950 years work?

Baha'is, like Muslims and Christians believe Noah was a real prophet, but much of the story was allegorical and not to be taken literally. There wasn't a world wide flood and He certainly didn't live to be 950 years of age.
Hey Adrian, thanks for keeping things going with your threads. I've listened to Christian radio and watched their TV shows that have Christian "scientists" go through the "proofs" of why the Bible is absolutely accurate and true. So that shows that geological "facts" can be interpreted or ignored or whatever has to be done to show how their beliefs are correct. Anything less than a world wide flood that happened about 4000 years ago makes the Christian view false. Which, to me, makes the Flood, yes, you guessed it... a myth.

Now between Christians and Muslims there are contradictions. Christians don't have Noah's son and wife being destroyed is the main one. But, if the story is not literal, why would Muhammad, the one sent to correct the misinterpretations of the previous messengers... why would he support the belief?

Another thing, how important is it to Jews? What do they say about it? It's based on their Scriptures. Christianity and Islam just use it the Jewish Scriptures to justify and build their religion. But, a problem for the continuity and "progressive" revelation idea of the Baha'is, is that, not just Judaism, but all previous major religions should have been used to build and support the new beliefs of the next religion.

So what seems obvious, just by looking around, you don't need science to tell you that people don't live hundreds and hundreds of years. Floods happen and people die, but the whole world doesn't flood all at once. Rainbows appear on a day that has some rain and some sun. Not because it is a "sign" from God that he will not flood the whole world again.

But then, if God did it to destroy the wicked and kill the Nephilim then he failed. So what was God's point? Evil continued. If it is a myth, but told to people as if true, then there is a very good point... believe in an invisible God that destroyed disbelieving evil people before and he will do it again. But, if science can show that it is extremely unlikely that such a thing could have ever happened, and the people never lived to be hundreds of years old, then God loses credibility. His "Word" cannot be taken as "literal" truth... only "symbolic", metaphorical truth, or... it's fictional and nothing but a myth.

Oh yes, a Christian support for there being a world wide flood includes that many people throughout the Earth had "Flood" stories, therefore, it must have happened. But, are any of these stories, including the "Gilgamesh" story, ever considered anything but myth? So why only the Bible story is the "literal" truth of what happened? But, if not true, why would Christianity and Islam support it? And finally, a religion, the Baha'i Faith, comes clean and tells the truth... It was only an allegorical story. It didn't happen. But then they blow it by saying that... of course, Noah was real. Just that he wasn't hundreds of years old. He didn't build a giant wooden boat. The animals from all over the world didn't come to him and get on the boat. That's all symbolic. So then, what was "real" about him?
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Mostly, I think that humans are so dull about what happened that they just don't know much. It is my belief that perhaps Islam is a copy of Judaism. I see the old documents as the best effort of very primitive people to explain what happened to them and what they saw. I don't have issue with their having been a flood, though what was happening was likely beyond them.

I know conservative Christianity the best, and think that much of the doctrines are beyond ludicrous. I converted to Islam in 2005 and some of that just goes round the bend for me. Recently, I've been reading Judaism, thanks to the help of a Jewish woman.

I've tried to follow the will of the Creator, and will try to respond positively to any instruction given by the Creator.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey CG, thanks for an excellent post.

Hey Adrian, thanks for keeping things going with your threads. I've listened to Christian radio and watched their TV shows that have Christian "scientists" go through the "proofs" of why the Bible is absolutely accurate and true. So that shows that geological "facts" can be interpreted or ignored or whatever has to be done to show how their beliefs are correct. Anything less than a world wide flood that happened about 4000 years ago makes the Christian view false. Which, to me, makes the Flood, yes, you guessed it... a myth.

I love the Christian fundamentalists and their persistence looking for evidence to support their literal worldview despite the odds. I agree the flood story is mythical.

Now between Christians and Muslims there are contradictions. Christians don't have Noah's son and wife being destroyed is the main one. But, if the story is not literal, why would Muhammad, the one sent to correct the misinterpretations of the previous messengers... why would he support the belief?

I doubt if Muhammad was concerned with the types of questions that have emerged for Christianity through the European Renaissance some thousand or so years after Islam emerged.

Another thing, how important is it to Jews? What do they say about it? It's based on their Scriptures. Christianity and Islam just use it the Jewish Scriptures to justify and build their religion. But, a problem for the continuity and "progressive" revelation idea of the Baha'is, is that, not just Judaism, but all previous major religions should have been used to build and support the new beliefs of the next religion.

Good question about the Jews. One Orthodox Jew I’m having discussions with is convinced it was all literally true. The funny thing is we both attended the same Baptist church in my hometown. I left 30 years ago to become a Baha’i. He left just over 3 years ago to become an Orthodox Jew. He changed his name and now believes the entire New Testament was an invention of the Roman Empire. He comes along to interfaith council meetings but won’t even touch food prepared in a Church let alone set foot in one. I doubt if he reflects the views of the average Jew though.

So what seems obvious, just by looking around, you don't need science to tell you that people don't live hundreds and hundreds of years. Floods happen and people die, but the whole world doesn't flood all at once. Rainbows appear on a day that has some rain and some sun. Not because it is a "sign" from God that he will not flood the whole world again.

I don’t think we’ll have too much to debate about any of this.

But then, if God did it to destroy the wicked and kill the Nephilim then he failed. So what was God's point? Evil continued. If it is a myth, but told to people as if true, then there is a very good point... believe in an invisible God that destroyed disbelieving evil people before and he will do it again. But, if science can show that it is extremely unlikely that such a thing could have ever happened, and the people never lived to be hundreds of years old, then God loses credibility. His "Word" cannot be taken as "literal" truth... only "symbolic", metaphorical truth, or... it's fictional and nothing but a myth.

But isn’t that the classic straw man? Portray scripture as something that was never intended in the first place? Of course the best mythology relies on a plausible narrative that it could have been real. So perhaps there’s truth, even in your straw man.

Oh yes, a Christian support for there being a world wide flood includes that many people throughout the Earth had "Flood" stories, therefore, it must have happened. But, are any of these stories, including the "Gilgamesh" story, ever considered anything but myth? So why only the Bible story is the "literal" truth of what happened? But, if not true, why would Christianity and Islam support it? And finally, a religion, the Baha'i Faith, comes clean and tells the truth... It was only an allegorical story. It didn't happen. But then they blow it by saying that... of course, Noah was real. Just that he wasn't hundreds of years old. He didn't build a giant wooden boat. The animals from all over the world didn't come to him and get on the boat. That's all symbolic. So then, what was "real" about him?

The Baha’i Faith is a religion that builds on mythology of the past and reframes the stories for a modern audience. Part of the power of mythology lies with the possibility that it may have really happened. Can we prove anything is real about Noah apart from what’s written in sacred scripture? No. Could some of it really have happened? It’s possible.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Mostly, I think that humans are so dull about what happened that they just don't know much. It is my belief that perhaps Islam is a copy of Judaism. I see the old documents as the best effort of very primitive people to explain what happened to them and what they saw. I don't have issue with their having been a flood, though what was happening was likely beyond them.

I know conservative Christianity the best, and think that much of the doctrines are beyond ludicrous. I converted to Islam in 2005 and some of that just goes round the bend for me. Recently, I've been reading Judaism, thanks to the help of a Jewish woman.

I've tried to follow the will of the Creator, and will try to respond positively to any instruction given by the Creator.

I think your strength on this forum is having been both a Muslim and a Christian. Many Christians reject Islam outright and most Muslims see the Gospels and Torah as corrupted and superseded by the Quran. Your personal experience can help break down barriers between the two faiths. All the best with your study of Judaism. I’m currently reading “The Lonely Man of Faith” ia philosophical essay written by Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, first published in 1965.

https://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Man-Faith-Joseph-Soloveitchik/dp/0385514085
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Last edited:

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I think your strength on this forum is having been both a Muslim and a Christian. Many Christians reject Islam outright and most Muslims see the Gospels and Torah as corrupted and superseded by the Quran. Your personal experience can help break down barriers between the two faiths. All the best with your study of Judaism. I’m currently reading “The Lonely Man of Faith” ia philosophical essay written by Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, first published in 1965.

https://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Man-Faith-Joseph-Soloveitchik/dp/0385514085

Thank you. Life is an uncertain journey and none of us knows the outcome. Blessings to you.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I dont think its mythology. Interestingly, none of these stories and records come with the tage "mythology" on it.

I don't think to many of us disbelieve in floods, some of them great and devastating. Floods are an important part of the mythology or sacred writings of most cultures.

I suppose the issue is what would constitute evidence of a worldwide flood as recorded in Genesis? The problem is that such a deluge is incompatible with modern scientific understanding of natural history, geology and palaeontology.

Obviously to many Christians the scientific evidence appears to be disregarded. I was wondering if Muslims take the same approach. I suspect many do.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
It is my opinion that Islam has lots in common with Jewish belief and that the flood is taken seriously. There also used to be a bit circulation about the Moon splitting and I have no idea where that came from in Islam. It is perhaps an artifact from pre-Islamic beliefs? I sometimes wonder if the very advanced Arabs (Egyptians) had come up with a Telescope and seen lunar rilles? Just an idle thought whilst enjoying a bit of IPA.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
It is my opinion that Islam has lots in common with Jewish belief and that the flood is taken seriously. There also used to be a bit circulation about the Moon splitting and I have no idea where that came from in Islam. It is perhaps an artifact from pre-Islamic beliefs? I sometimes wonder if the very advanced Arabs (Egyptians) had come up with a Telescope and seen lunar rilles? Just an idle thought whilst enjoying a bit of IPA.

I believe you are correct in regards to Jewish belief about the flood. They do see it as a very real event but there are a few twists in that the universe as conceived by the ancient Hebrews comprised a flat disk-shaped habitable earth with the heavens above and Sheol, the underworld of the dead, below. These three were surrounded by a watery "ocean" of chaos, protected by the firmament, a transparent but solid dome resting on the mountains which ringed the earth. Noah's three-deck ark represents this three-level Hebrew cosmos in miniature: the heavens, the earth, and the waters beneath. In Genesis 1, God created the three-level world as a space in the midst of the waters for humanity; in Genesis 6–8 (the flood narrative) he fills that space with waters again, saving only Noah, his family and the animals with him in the ark.

Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

It would be good to hear from Jews about their beliefs.

Muhammad splitting of the moon is a miracle in Muslim tradition from the Quran (54:1-2). Some Muslim commentators, particularly from the Medieval period, interpreted the event as a literal physical splitting of the moon by Muhammad, while some others identify it as an event that will happen at judgment. Others considered it to have been an optical illusion.

Splitting of the moon - Wikipedia

Once again, it would be good to hear from Muslims.

The Muslims arrguably had the most advanced civilisation along with scientific technologies throught the Islamic Golden Age dated from about 8th to 14th centuries. The works of Islamic scholars were arguably the most important factor contributing to the European rennaissance. Sadly, Islam slow became wrapt in orthodoxy and conversatism, shunning technologies in the West. They were about 300 years behind Europe in adopting the Gutenbery printing press.

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

Printing press - Wikipedia

There is a strong case for Judaiasm and Islam being most closely aligned in regards strict monotheism. Unlike Christianity, both religions reject the notion that Jesus or any man could be an incarnation of God. Both Islam and Judaism reject that God could have a son. The Triune Christian appears polytheistic to many Muslims and Christians and of course rejected on that basis. Muhammad in the Quran specifically commented against these errors He percieved in Christianity.
 
I don't think to many of us disbelief in floods, some of them great and devastating. Floods are an important part of the mythology or sacred writings of most cultures.

I suppose the issue is what would constitute evidence of a worldwide flood as recorded in Genesis? The problem is that such a deluge is incompatible with modern scientific understanding of natural history, geology and palaeontology.

Obviously to many Christians the scientific evidence appears to be disregarded. I was wondering if Muslims take the same approach. I suspect many do.

The way i look at this is, there is a ocean of information out there in the science world. Ive read alot, i barely remember most of it. But, alot of this stuff has to be interpreted and explained. Scientists, scholars disagree amongs themselves. And consensus i dont pay attention to, because just because most believe this or that, dont make it so. What most believe can be stupid too.

I try to look at the ACTUAL data and understand it.

But, despite all that, i still dont have a problem with a local flood.

But the old ages, i cant see this as not being literal. It just looks too literal as i read it.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I believe you are correct in regards to Jewish belief about the flood. They do see it as a very real event but there are a few twists in that the universe as conceived by the ancient Hebrews comprised a flat disk-shaped habitable earth with the heavens above and Sheol, the underworld of the dead, below. These three were surrounded by a watery "ocean" of chaos, protected by the firmament, a transparent but solid dome resting on the mountains which ringed the earth. Noah's three-deck ark represents this three-level Hebrew cosmos in miniature: the heavens, the earth, and the waters beneath. In Genesis 1, God created the three-level world as a space in the midst of the waters for humanity; in Genesis 6–8 (the flood narrative) he fills that space with waters again, saving only Noah, his family and the animals with him in the ark.

Noah's Ark - Wikipedia

It would be good to hear from Jews about their beliefs.

Muhammad splitting of the moon is a miracle in Muslim tradition from the Quran (54:1-2). Some Muslim commentators, particularly from the Medieval period, interpreted the event as a literal physical splitting of the moon by Muhammad, while some others identify it as an event that will happen at judgment. Others considered it to have been an optical illusion.

Splitting of the moon - Wikipedia

Once again, it would be good to hear from Muslims.

The Muslims arrguably had the most advanced civilisation along with scientific technologies throught the Islamic Golden Age dated from about 8th to 14th centuries. The works of Islamic scholars were arguably the most important factor contributing to the European rennaissance. Sadly, Islam slow became wrapt in orthodoxy and conversatism, shunning technologies in the West. They were about 300 years behind Europe in adopting the Gutenbery printing press.

Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

Printing press - Wikipedia

There is a strong case for Judaiasm and Islam being most closely aligned in regards strict monotheism. Unlike Christianity, both religions reject the notion that Jesus or any man could be an incarnation of God. Both Islam and Judaism reject that God could have a son. The Triune Christian appears polytheistic to many Muslims and Christians and of course rejected on that basis. Muhammad in the Quran specifically commented against these errors He percieved in Christianity.

I've never in over 40 years been a Trinitarian, and I've become sharply critical of the idea of Original Sin, and Transubstantiation. I think that most of Christianity is derailed.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
The way i look at this is, there is a ocean of information out there in the science world. Ive read alot, i barely remember most of it. But, alot of this stuff has to be interpreted and explained. Scientists, scholars disagree amongs themselves. And consensus i dont pay attention to, because just because most believe this or that, dont make it so. What most believe can be stupid too.

I try to look at the ACTUAL data and understand it.

But, despite all that, i still dont have a problem with a local flood.

But the old ages, i cant see this as not being literal. It just looks too literal as i read it.

I don't believe anyone has a problem with a local flood. A Prophet of Old calls people to worship the One true God, towards righteousness and calls them away from idol worship. That is the quintessential prophet in the Hebrew Bible.

The people are heedless, mock and ridicule Noah. Eventually a tribulation comes. Those who listened were saved on the Ark of Salvation and those who disbelieve were lost in a sea of tribulation and waywardness. 40 days of rain is a time of testing. Those who were faithful endured spirtually, and those who were insincere perished.

It doesn't bother me in the slightlest that Muslims and Christians may accept the entire account as literal. Having it part literal gives the story power over a mere myth, having aspects that are allegorical frees us to creatively consider the spiritual teachings that are conveyed.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I've never in over 40 years been a Trinitarian, and I've become sharply critical of the idea of Original Sin, and Transubstantiation. I think that most of Christianity is derailed.

I agree, but then again isn't Islam? Muslim theology may have more coherence but human rights in many Islamic countries is woeful.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I don't believe anyone has a problem with a local flood. A Prophet of Old calls people to worship the One true God, towards righteousness and calls them away from idol worship. That is the quintessential prophet in the Hebrew Bible.

The people are heedless, mock and ridicule Noah. Eventually a tribulation comes. Those who listened were saved on the Ark of Salvation and those who disbelieve were lost in a sea of tribulation and waywardness. 40 days of rain is a time of testing. Those who were faithful endured spirtually, and those who were insincere perished.

It doesn't bother me in the slightlest that Muslims and Christians may accept the entire account as literal. Having it part literal gives the story power over a mere myth, having aspects that are allegorical frees us to creatively consider the spiritual teachings that are conveyed.

Not to use a worn out phrase, but "We don't know what we don't know".
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I agree, but then again isn't Islam? Muslim theology may have more coherence but human rights is many Islamic countries is woeful.

I think that Islam started falling apart after the passing of Muhammad PBUH. Saudi Islam especially is excessive and a disappointment to me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Not to use a worn out phrase, but "We don't know what we don't know".

Exactly. All we really have is what the Quran or Torah say. There isn’t one piece of hard archeological evidence that supports the great flood ( and it is the same event) recorded in these books.
 
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