Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[Ellen Brown]

Oh yes.... Are you familiar with this?
The American Muslim (TAM)

This is the first I have heard of the site. There seemed to have been a new post today, but it seemed as if much of the content is dated, having been first started in 1989.

My introduction to Islam was in 2005 and I was trying to understand why Muslims hated America. A lot has happened since then.

 

[sooda]

This is the first I have heard of the site. There seemed to have been a new post today, but it seemed as if much of the content is dated, having been first started in 1989.

My introduction to Islam was in 2005 and I was trying to understand why Muslims hated America. A lot has happened since then.

My friend who is now deceased used to write for them. He also lived in Oregon. I never knew any Muslims that hated America. Maybe that's an American Muslim thing.

 

[Ellen Brown]

My friend who is now deceased used to write for them. He also lived in Oregon. I never knew any Muslims that hated America. Maybe that's an American Muslim thing.

There is one Masjid in Portland that was very radical. There is a Shia/Sunni Mosque, a Sudanese one and a few others.

 

[sooda]

There is one Masjid in Portland that was very radical. There is a Shia/Sunni Mosque, a Sudanese one and a few others.

My friend was an American who became a Muslim in the late 1960s.. Sunni. Fine man with a fine family.

 

[Jollybear]

Noah's flood was a local river flood about 2900 B.C.; the ark was a commercial river barge; Noah was a king of the Sumerian city Shuruppak; the river flood lasted only six days; the ark grounded twice but not on a mountain; after grounding, Noah met other survivors of the flood; the site of Noah's altar has been found and excavated; Noah lived to be 83 not 950.

Thats interesting. You got a source for that information?

I like your ladybug by the way. I bought ladybugs for my garden once and they eat the aphids on my spinach. Pretty cool huh?

 

[sooda]

Thats interesting. You got a source for that information?

I like your ladybug by the way. I bought ladybugs for my garden once and they eat the aphids on my spinach. Pretty cool huh?

Very cool. Thanks.

This will take you to the source. I posted several others.

https://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

Maybe the best one is LIVIUS. There are 5-6 versions of the muth.

The Great Flood: Archaeology? - Livius

 

[Audie]

I haven't been to Iraq in many decades, but I think that with their oil industry there were lots and lots of core samples taken that would confirm Woolsey's excavations.

I am sure that anyone could go to a flood plain,
dig a bit, and find evidence of floods.

Connecting an archaeologists "discovery" that
there has been flooding in a flood plain, to the
myths of Noahs ark is something beyond the power
or every oil man in the world.

Nobody bothers, btw, with keeping samples
from surface sediments when drilling for oil.

And when they do drill, they dont get "cores".

What comes up is a slurry of drilling mud
and cuttings that can only be approximately
matched to the depth of the formations
they are drilling through

Likely enough, studies have been done
by geologists (trained in that field, not
archaeologists, who are not) that trace
the stratigraphy of the flood plains
in great detail.

We dont look to 1922 reports from duffers
for good science. The poor work that led
to so much confusion and woo woo surrounding
Beresvoka mammoth (1901) is a somewhat
similar case.

Both the Woolley flood layers and the Beresovoka
buttercups are perennial favourites of a class
of woo woo loving creationists.

All of this is to say that it is at least conceivable
that one of the floods of the tibirs euphrates led
to the Noahs ark story. That it lasted six days,
noah ran around twice with a commercial barge-
that is pure conjecture, tinged with fantasy.

Although it it is at least possible, something
that cannot be said for the world wide thing.

 

[Audie]

My friend who is now deceased used to write for them. He also lived in Oregon. I never knew any Muslims that hated America. Maybe that's an American Muslim thing.

It is also an American thing. Lots of Americans hate
their country.

 

[Audie]

My friend was an American who became a Muslim in the late 1960s.. Sunni. Fine man with a fine family.

I think their religion is batty, much like Christianity.
But that does not keep them from being fine people.
if it is in them to be that.

 

[sooda]

It is also an American thing. Lots of Americans hate
their country.

Point taken..

Some people must hate something.. They wouldn't be happy unless they were angry.

 

[sooda]

I am sure that anyone could go to a flood plain,
dig a bit, and find evidence of floods.

Connecting an archaeologists "discovery" that
there has been flooding in a flood plain, to the
myths of Noahs ark is something beyond the power
or every oil man in the world.

Nobody bothers, btw, with keeping samples
from surface sediments when drilling for oil.

And when they do drill, they dont get "cores".

What comes up is a slurry of drilling mud
and cuttings that can only be approximately
matched to the depth of the formations
they are drilling through

Likely enough, studies have been done
by geologists (trained in that field, not
archaeologists, who are not) that trace
the stratigraphy of the flood plains
in great detail.

We dont look to 1922 reports from duffers
for good science. The poor work that led
to so much confusion and woo woo surrounding
Beresvoka mammoth (1901) is a somewhat
similar case.

Both the Woolley flood layers and the Beresovoka
buttercups are perennial favourites of a class
of woo woo loving creationists.

All of this is to say that it is at least conceivable
that one of the floods of the tibirs euphrates led
to the Noahs ark story. That it lasted six days,
noah ran around twice with a commercial barge-
that is pure conjecture, tinged with fantasy.

Although it it is at least possible, something
that cannot be said for the world wide thing.

I have seen thousands of core samples.. I know exploration techniques have changed, but the geology of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and Kuwait have been thoroughly studied in the past 80-100 years.

I grew up surrounded by geologists, drillers, engineers, topographers and chemists..

The six day flood is recorded in clay at Dilmun.

 

[Audie]

I have seen thousands of core samples.. I know exploration techniques have changed, but the geology of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran and Kuwait have been thoroughly studied in the past 80-100 years.

I grew up surrounded by geologists, drillers, engineers, topographers and chemists..

The six day flood is recorded in clay at Dilmun.

Ok we dont need to tell eachother about oil wells, which
are far from m thing anyway.

If it was a six day flood, and somebody somehow
knows that, then a corresponding layer of fine silt
will be there.

The fine details of what really happened at the
true origin of the noahs ark story, not so much.

I did not find that remotely credible the first time
around and dont now either.

 

[Jollybear]

Earlier you said- Ive read alot, i barely remember most of it. But, alot of this stuff has to be interpreted and explained. Scientists, scholars disagree amongs themselves

And I want to comment on it.
First-"read a lot". Who knows what sources
these are, or how much you consider to be
"a lot". So your reader does not know what
to make of this.

-has to be interpreted and explained
Raw data is not good for much unless it
it is given some context, interpreted, if you
like. I doubt you were reading raw data.
so what you mean by your statement is
hard to say. Perhaps it is a way of saying
it is all just opinion?

Scientists, scholars disagree amongs themselves

This seems to confirm that you are thinking it is
all just opinion / consensus, and one idea is as
good as the next.

i rather think you have never spent any time
around scientists, certainly do not know any
nor have you done research, and are not at all
familiar with the work, standards of thinking of
researchers. Am I right?

To say people "Disagree" is so general as to
be meaningless. Christians disagree. Historians
disagree about WW2. Automotive engineers
probably disagree.
But about what? Whether to worship god?
Whether or not Brazil attacked India in WW2?

There is also the basis for disagreement.
IF someone wants to propose that Brazil
attacked India and occupied the country, they
will need some data.
As no such data exists, they will be laughed at.
Great Historian though he may nominally be.

IF someone (such as the paleontologist K. Wise)
is a yec, and thinks the world is only 6 k years old,
well, they do not get much respect for it. Why?
Zero data.

To say that "historians disagree" and "paleontologists
disagree" is in such cases either deliberately misleading,
or, just kinda dumb.

What you are referring to as agreement or consensus
is really this-
researchers in whatever field are going to be aware
of the concepts, theories, discoveries of their field.
They know what conclusions best fit the available
data. It is not that they get together to agree on things.

Take WW2 for example. Everyone knows the basics,
and a lot of small details too. There was no gathering
to come to a consensus on whether Japan was involved.
There are endless little details to be discovered, analyzed,
argued over, until, say, the ship is discovered at the bottom
of the sea and there is no more disagreement about where
it might be.

I guess, if you must, you can call that agreement or consensus
about the shipwreck. Is such agreement somehow
a weakness, a problem for WW2 historians, for which they
should be criticized?




Finally, on how you forgot most of
what you've read:

This is not an attack, not a put down etc,
just a maybe-helpful comment on this.

When I was in school, I made sure I
explained any new concept to myself,
in my own words. When I could do that,
and explain it to another person, then I had
it, because I understood it.

When you understand, you do not forget.

It is no good to just memorize, or sorta
remember what you read.

Oh, in your lasts sentence there, you said how
do you know they were wrong.

About whether there was a world wide flood?

I dont know what you mean by reading raw data.

But, ive read stuff from both sides of the subject matter, on the flood and on old earth and young earth.

But, in a word, tell me the reason the world wide flood did not happen?

What about fish fossils on mount Everest?

 

[sooda]

Ok we dont need to tell eachother about oil wells, which
are far from m thing anyway.

If it was a six day flood, and somebody somehow
knows that, then a corresponding layer of fine silt
will be there.

The fine details of what really happened at the
true origin of the noahs ark story, not so much.

I did not find that remotely credible the first time
around and dont now either.

You can find small she'll in the middle of the desert and you know the reason for that. There is evidence for a flood sediment about 150 miles wide in the Euphrates riveR basin so geoligists know it flooded. So many of the flood myths originate in the area ... What is there to challenge?



ver basin

 

[sooda]

I dont know what you mean by reading raw data.

But, ive read stuff from both sides of the subject matter, on the flood and on old earth and young earth.

But, in a word, tell me the reason the world wide flood did not happen?

What about fish fossils on mount Everest?

Plate tectonics. Even today the Himalayan range is getting taller and the red sea is getting wider.

 

[Audie]

I dont know what you mean by reading raw data.

But, ive read stuff from both sides of the subject matter, on the flood and on old earth and young earth.

But, in a word, tell me the reason the world wide flood did not happen?

What about fish fossils on mount Everest?

There are two sides to the issue in the same
sense that there are two sides to whether
Elvis lives on.

You want one word for why it did not happen?
"Impossible."

One can then supply the data from a thousand
thousand sources. The flood hypothesis is simply
not consistent with any of the data. Any of it.

If you would like one quick simple example of data
not matching, the existence of well over a hundred
thousand years' ice on Antarctica? A world wide
flood would float it off. But there it is.

A child might say he washed the dishes just
last night, but if there are plates with old
stuck down food in the sink, well, data dont
match claim. Ya know?

There are of course, no fish on Everest, though
there is fossil bearing marine rock. There is also
fossil bearing marine sediment thousands of feet
below the cornfields of Kansas. Some would have
it that the high and the low are both flood-signs, tho
it seems maybe a little inconsistent.

Do you know enough about earth history to understand
that mountains are actually formed, not just put
there as-is, in a supernatural event?

If so, you can appreciate that rock can be pushed
up to a considerable height.

Look at these photos, and you can see how
the same layer of rock can be seen to slope
hundreds / thousands of feet vertically.

One more thing about your fish on ererest.

IF a flood managed to scoop up mud, clams,
etc and lift it 30,000 ft, and then leave some
behind, it would be draped over the mountain
like fudge over ice cream. And freeze.

What did not freeze would wash away after a bit.

One does nor find frozen fish up there. Instead,
solid rock, all the way through one side and out
the other, in layers.

It just does not make any sense, as you can surely
see.

 

[Audie]

You can find small she'll in the middle of the desert and you know the reason for that. There is evidence for a flood sediment about 150 miles wide in the Euphrates riveR basin so geoligists know it flooded. So many of the flood myths originate in the area ... What is there to challenge?



ver basin

Last time to say the same things.

Of course there have been floods on a flood plain!!!!!

The specificity of your story about the commercial barge, length of time, how many times stuck has no credibility.

 

[sooda]

Last time to say the same things.

Of course there have been floods on a flood plain!!!!!

The specificity of your story about the commercial barge, length of time, how many times stuck has no credibility.

Oh.. That's not my story.. It comes from thousands of clay tablets in Mesopotamia and Dilmun.

 

[Audie]

Oh.. That's not my story.. It comes from thousands of clay tablets in Mesopotamia and Dilmun.

Whatevs. That is not credible either.

(dont read that or you will think I repeated
even when I said i wont)