Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[sooda]

Any more info?? Ha. You never put up anything
to support your silly claims like how many times
"Noah" ran aground.

Why not let it go? Because it amused me to see
you trying to dodge responsibility for your falsehoods,
and somehow put fault on me for it.

Kind of a game, to see how far a person will go,
when the are cornered and cannot admit that
their claims are phony. Took you a while, but
you finally ran.

Well, you did get a laugh. Good work.

Do you really think I did any of those studies I posted?

 

[Ellen Brown]

How have you experienced Saudi Islam?

I was observant for 7+ years as a very conservative Sunni Muslim.

 

[sooda]

I was observant for 7+ years as a very conservative Sunni Muslim.

In Saudi Arabia? Where?

 

[Audie]

Do you really think I did any of those studies I posted?

It has been so long now, perhaps you have forgotten that
you posted this,stated as fact, with no attribution.

Noah's flood was a local river flood about 2900 B.C.; the ark was a commercial river barge; Noah was a king of the Sumerian city Shuruppak; the river flood lasted only six days; the ark grounded twice but not on a mountain; after grounding, Noah met other survivors of the flood; the site of Noah's altar has been found and excavated; Noah lived to be 83 not 950.

I simply pointed out that these are facts not in evidence.
You proceeded to show that I was correct in that
assessment, and then most ungraciously tried, and you
are still trying, to make this somehow my mistake
and /or confusion.

Are you simply incapable of admitting that those are
facts not in evidence? It is ok if you are, just say so,
I know a lot of people have that condition and I wont
further try to push you beyond your capacity.

 

[sooda]

It has been so long now, perhaps you have forgotten that
you posted this,stated as fact, with no attribution.

Noah's flood was a local river flood about 2900 B.C.; the ark was a commercial river barge; Noah was a king of the Sumerian city Shuruppak; the river flood lasted only six days; the ark grounded twice but not on a mountain; after grounding, Noah met other survivors of the flood; the site of Noah's altar has been found and excavated; Noah lived to be 83 not 950.

I simply pointed out that these are facts not in evidence.
You proceeded to show that I was correct in that
assessment, and then most ungraciously tried, and you
are still trying, to make this somehow my mistake
and /or confusion.

Are you simply incapable of admitting that those are
facts not in evidence? It is ok if you are, just say so,
I know a lot of people have that condition and I wont
further try to push you beyond your capacity.

Every fact is from the links I posted earlier.

Ziusudra - Wikipedia

Of course you'd actually have to read it.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Islam started falling apart when Al-gezhali came up with his toxic and poisoness Kalaam argument.
For a few centuries Baghdad was the epicenter of multi-culturalism, tolerance of ideas and scientific advancement - while our ancestors in western europe were busy burning books, witches and heretics.

Then Al-Gezhali came with his toxic philosophy. He even literally called mathematics the language of the devil at some point. And for some reason, his philosophies won and the islamic world never recovered. The damage that dude caused, persists till this day. To put it into perspective, a single western average university puts out MORE scientific papers annually then the entire islamic middle east combined.

While islamic culture is what brought us arabic numbers, algebra, astronomy, etc.


Ironically, half of the arguments a lot of christian apologists put out today, are actually that dude's arguments put in a christian jacket. It's a bit embarassing actually. And also a wake up call. If you let those guys have their way, 150 years from now the judeo christian west will end up like the current islamic world. Halting all progress and plummeting back into dark ages.

People think that isn't true. But we have a precedent... the islamic world. That is EXACTLY what happened to that culture, after such fallacious and bad reasoning took over the culture.

I'd need to study the time frame of your opinion, but other than that I don't have much disagreement with it. I was a Conservative Christian for over 30 years, but it has proven to be so flawed that I have withdrawn and now say I am an Abrahamic Religionist. That takes in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and I am not excluding other beliefs other than the fact that I don't know anything about them. As a Muslim for 7+ years, it was interesting and I learned a lot. It seems unclear to me how followers can say that Islam is the religion of peace, with what I see radical Muslims doing. Though the criminally aggressiveness of the western world toward Muslims likely had a role, I think.

Wiki says that Al-Gezhali was of Persian origin, yet was Sunni??? I had not heard of the man before. Almost all Persians are Shia today. I'm just now reading the Wiki on him, very interesting. I am not a historian, just an old woman who reads a lot. I thought that Islam was very good until Muhammad PBUH died. From what I gather, it seems that his successors made Islam into an invading hoard, and the first they attacked were the Byzantines?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Saudi Arabia was like the time of Christ in the 1940s.. They didn't know what a work week was.. There were no roads, telephones, radio.. no clean water.They have come a long, long way.. and their work in hy-solar since the 1980s is pretty cool.

All that technology and science was imported and bought with oil money.
The point.

You said they have fine universities etc now.
Where is the research they do there?
Why does a single western university TODAY put out more research papers then the entire islamic middle east combined?

That's the topic. Not how much hi-tech they bought or imported. Not how many ferarri's are driving around in Dubai. Not how many billionaires they have.

Rather, the fact that they have zero contribution to the advance of science.
And it's been that way ever since they adopted the toxic philosophies that put a halt to it all.

If it wasn't for other cultures' advancement and development of that science and tech - they wouldn't have any of it.

It's not that they are too dumb to do it. It's that their culture simply is not a nursing ground for doing that. And it's deeply saddening.

In the words of Neil deGrass Tyson "It's painfull to think about the potential brilliance that the world potentially missed, because of this. Among those 1.3 billion muslims, surely there might have been a second Einstein, a second Hawking, a second Newton,....But we will never now. That is sad."

I'ld even call it traggic.

 

[Audie]

Every fact is from the links I posted earlier.

Ziusudra - Wikipedia

Of course you'd actually have to read it.

But you dont actually have to admit that you gave no attribution,
and, even if you had, the status of what you said as fact
is in no way improved.

This has led some scholars to conclude that the flood hero was king of Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period ....

"Some scholars" as per wiki is a long darn way from
establishing that there really was a Noah who ran a ground
twice.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'd need to study the time frame of your opinion, but other than that I don't have much disagreement with it. I was a Conservative Christian for over 30 years, but it has proven to be so flawed that I have withdrawn and now say I am an Abrahamic Religionist. That takes in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and I am not excluding other beliefs other than the fact that I don't know anything about them. As a Muslim for 7+ years, it was interesting and I learned a lot. It seems unclear to me how followers can say that Islam is the religion of peace, with what I see radical Muslims doing. Though the criminally aggressiveness of the western world toward Muslims likely had a role, I think.

Wiki says that Al-Gezhali was of Persian origin, yet was Sunni??? I had not heard of the man before. Almost all Persians are Shia today. I'm just now reading the Wiki on him, very interesting. I am not a historian, just an old woman who reads a lot. I thought that Islam was very good until Muhammad PBUH died. From what I gather, it seems that his successors made Islam into an invading hoard, and the first they attacked were the Byzantines?

My understanding has always been that the first few centuries were actually rather good.
I remember reading a lot about its "golden" age.

I was very fascinated by what went down in Bagdad during that time period.
When you read about how life was in that city in that timeframe, you'ld barely believe that that was islamic culture back then. It's black and white with what came after it.

Knowing its history, it almost physically hurts to see what the likes of ISIS did in exactly such cities in Iraq.

Imaginge Bagdad, as the epicenter of scientific thought, free exchange of intellectual ideas with people coming from far away (from non-muslim lands!) to read in its libraries, to talk and exchange ideas with other scholars there. An epicenter of multi-cultural cooperation, tolerance and scientific advancement.

In a very real sense, you could even say that such a period of scientific advancement, has been unparallelled in human history!

Imagine what the world, and the middle east in particular, would have looked like if that would have been allowed to continue.

 

[sooda]

But you dont actually have to admit that you gave no attribution,
and, even if you had, the status of what you said as fact
is in no way improved.

This has led some scholars to conclude that the flood hero was king of Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period ....

"Some scholars" as per wiki is a long darn way from
establishing that there really was a Noah who ran a ground
twice.

I have read so much of this mythos from Sumer in the past 30 years I can't always remember the source. But if its a subject that interests you start with LIVIUS or Kramers's History Begins at Sumer. Livius has all six flood stories in one place. Its an excellent source.

https://www.amazon.ca/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

 

[Audie]

I have read so much of this mythos from Sumer in the past 30 years I can't always remember the source. But if its a subject that interests you start with LIVIUS or Kramers's History Begins at Sumer. Livius has all six flood stories in one place. Its an excellent source.

https://www.amazon.ca/Noahs-Ark-Ziusudra-Epic-Sumerian/dp/0966784014

That is fine, and no doubt you have read more than I.
On that, at least.

Go forth, and state no more of what "some scholars"
may think as if it is fact like "water is wet", and nobody
will be likely to call you on it.

 

[sooda]

That is fine, and no doubt you have read more than I.
On that, at least.

Go forth, and state no more of what "some scholars"
may think as if it is fact like "water is wet", and nobody
will be likely to call you on it.

Excavations at Ur by Leonard Wooley in 1922 CE revealed an eight-foot layer of silt and clay, consistent with the sediment of the Euphrates, which seemed to support the claim of a catastrophic flood in the area around 2800 BCE.

Eridu

 

[Audie]

Excavations at Ur by Leonard Wooley in 1922 CE revealed an eight-foot layer of silt and clay, consistent with the sediment of the Euphrates, which seemed to support the claim of a catastrophic flood in the area around 2800 BCE.

Eridu

Yeah, um, that is an oft-repeated. I would like to see
something up to date, done by geologists. His work
seems to be a bit on the facile side, and quite likely
biased by what he wanted to find.

In the event, I've no prob with the rivers having flooded.
no doubt quite catastrophically, a number of times.

That the noahs ark canard is associated with one of them
is possible, though hardly demonstrated.

Our fundies like to point to more or less similar flood
stories from around the world, as, as they think, proof
of the (world wide) flood.

In the event, such stories as there are may or may not be
related in any way to actual events, like the one in the middle
east.

There are, too, those who present that it was the flooding of
the Black Sea that inspired the myth. I personally doubt that,
and the whole hypothesis is badly tainted by recourse to
the improbable scenario of water suddenly rushing.

My own guess is that there was some little "seed
pearl" of actual events that got embellished with
layer after layer of embellishment far beyond any
recognition by those involved in the original.

That is pretty typical.. Then too, mothers or dads
will make up stories to tell their kids, and, after
a generation or two they turn into history.

We wont ever know, other than that "world wide"
sure did not happen.

 

[Ellen Brown]

In Saudi Arabia? Where?

In Oregon, in America.

 

[Ellen Brown]

My understanding has always been that the first few centuries were actually rather good.
I remember reading a lot about its "golden" age.

I was very fascinated by what went down in Bagdad during that time period.
When you read about how life was in that city in that timeframe, you'ld barely believe that that was islamic culture back then. It's black and white with what came after it.

Knowing its history, it almost physically hurts to see what the likes of ISIS did in exactly such cities in Iraq.

Imaginge Bagdad, as the epicenter of scientific thought, free exchange of intellectual ideas with people coming from far away (from non-muslim lands!) to read in its libraries, to talk and exchange ideas with other scholars there. An epicenter of multi-cultural cooperation, tolerance and scientific advancement.

In a very real sense, you could even say that such a period of scientific advancement, has been unparallelled in human history!

Imagine what the world, and the middle east in particular, would have looked like if that would have been allowed to continue.

It is very sad.

 

[sooda]

Yeah, um, that is an oft-repeated. I would like to see
something up to date, done by geologists. His work
seems to be a bit on the facile side, and quite likely
biased by what he wanted to find.

In the event, I've no prob with the rivers having flooded.
no doubt quite catastrophically, a number of times.

That the noahs ark canard is associated with one of them
is possible, though hardly demonstrated.

Our fundies like to point to more or less similar flood
stories from around the world, as, as they think, proof
of the (world wide) flood.

In the event, such stories as there are may or may not be
related in any way to actual events, like the one in the middle
east.

There are, too, those who present that it was the flooding of
the Black Sea that inspired the myth. I personally doubt that,
and the whole hypothesis is badly tainted by recourse to
the improbable scenario of water suddenly rushing.

My own guess is that there was some little "seed
pearl" of actual events that got embellished with
layer after layer of embellishment far beyond any
recognition by those involved in the original.

That is pretty typical.. Then too, mothers or dads
will make up stories to tell their kids, and, after
a generation or two they turn into history.

We wont ever know, other than that "world wide"
sure did not happen.

The Black Sea breech was more than 5600 years ago and it was a slow moving flood with the water rising very slowly.. Plenty of time to move people and live stock to higher ground. It also corresponds with the spread of technology and agriculture in Europe.. So the theory is that refugees from the banks of the Black Sea dispersed and took their knowledge with them.

 

[Jollybear]

.

?

 

[sooda]

In Oregon, in America.

Oh yes.... Are you familiar with this?
The American Muslim (TAM)

 

[Audie]

The Black Sea breech was more than 5600 years ago and it was a slow moving flood with the water rising very slowly.. Plenty of time to move people and live stock to higher ground. It also corresponds with the spread of technology and agriculture in Europe.. So the theory is that refugees from the banks of the Black Sea dispersed and took their knowledge with them.

Yes, quite agree that it is most improbable.

For one, the overtopping of the barrier between black sea
and med was from melting glaciers raising sea level,
which aint fast.

Also, the first water through would have been from a high high tide, and for a brief time. Eventually any high tide, then...

And filling a big basin, water wont rise so fast that a plant
could not grow fast enough to get away.

But that is preachin' to the choir.

 

[sooda]

Yeah, um, that is an oft-repeated. I would like to see
something up to date, done by geologists. His work
seems to be a bit on the facile side, and quite likely
biased by what he wanted to find.

In the event, I've no prob with the rivers having flooded.
no doubt quite catastrophically, a number of times.

That the noahs ark canard is associated with one of them
is possible, though hardly demonstrated.

Our fundies like to point to more or less similar flood
stories from around the world, as, as they think, proof
of the (world wide) flood.

In the event, such stories as there are may or may not be
related in any way to actual events, like the one in the middle
east.

There are, too, those who present that it was the flooding of
the Black Sea that inspired the myth. I personally doubt that,
and the whole hypothesis is badly tainted by recourse to
the improbable scenario of water suddenly rushing.

My own guess is that there was some little "seed
pearl" of actual events that got embellished with
layer after layer of embellishment far beyond any
recognition by those involved in the original.

That is pretty typical.. Then too, mothers or dads
will make up stories to tell their kids, and, after
a generation or two they turn into history.

We wont ever know, other than that "world wide"
sure did not happen.

I haven't been to Iraq in many decades, but I think that with their oil industry there were lots and lots of core samples taken that would confirm Woolsey's excavations.