Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Muslim world or most of it went thru an extended period of stagnation during the Ottoman Empire .. literacy and everything else suffered. Ancient tribal customs were entrenched and passed for Islam. That began changing in the Gulf States about 1950 and they are clawing there way back. Saudi Arabia began a huge push to inculcate critical thinking into education as opposed to rote learning about 20 years ago. They also have excellent universities in the study of petroleum and minerals, geology, chemistry which have been around for 40 years...They have an excellent grasp of the field of plate tectonics ...

Islam's golden age ended quite some time before the Ottomans even existed.

You say they are crawling back, but the statistics simply do not reflect this.
As said, a single western university puts out more science papers then the entire islamic middle east combined. What crawling back?

Saudi's might have high tech and good knowledge plate tectonics and are great with oil - to be expected as that is literally their source of income.

But yet, they aren't making any noise on the international landscape regarding pushing the frontier of scientific knowledge in any of these fields.
Instead, they have simply become really good in adopting the knowledge provided by other cultures, in those area's of expertise.

Let's contrast that with 2 other countries: Israel and Japan.
One didn't even exist before 1948.
The other was as good as bombed to the ground WW2.

Today, both are pioneers in LOADS of sciences.

Why is this?

The difference is culture and more precisely the adopted philosophies of that culture.
If the Saudi's weren't sitting on their much needed black gold, they'ld be the same desert poor countries as the rest of them. And, just to repeat, none of them - including the Saudi's - are pioneering anything in any sciences.

They are just not part of the movement that pushes those frontiers of knowledge.
They haven't been ever since their golden age.

 

[sooda]

Islam's golden age ended quite some time before the Ottomans even existed.

You say they are crawling back, but the statistics simply do not reflect this.
As said, a single western university puts out more science papers then the entire islamic middle east combined. What crawling back?

Saudi's might have high tech and good knowledge plate tectonics and are great with oil - to be expected as that is literally their source of income.

But yet, they aren't making any noise on the international landscape regarding pushing the frontier of scientific knowledge in any of these fields.
Instead, they have simply become really good in adopting the knowledge provided by other cultures, in those area's of expertise.

Let's contrast that with 2 other countries: Israel and Japan.
One didn't even exist before 1948.
The other was as good as bombed to the ground WW2.

Today, both are pioneers in LOADS of sciences.

Why is this?

The difference is culture and more precisely the adopted philosophies of that culture.
If the Saudi's weren't sitting on their much needed black gold, they'ld be the same desert poor countries as the rest of them. And, just to repeat, none of them - including the Saudi's - are pioneering anything in any sciences.

They are just not part of the movement that pushes those frontiers of knowledge.
They haven't been ever since their golden age.

Saudi Arabia was like the time of Christ in the 1940s.. They didn't know what a work week was.. There were no roads, telephones, radio.. no clean water.They have come a long, long way.. and their work in hy-solar since the 1980s is pretty cool.

 

[Audie]

The focus is on critical thinking.. I don't think their religion is at risk. I have toured a lot of universities and science centers in Arabia and they have outstanding active displays of earth changes over the millions of years.. The tilting of the peninsula, the widening of the Red Sea, the pushing up of the escarpment and the Mountains of Asir, the change in the Persian Gulf from river to lake to salt water gulf.. At each station they have a little brass plaque with a verse from the Koran. it seems to me that they reconcile faith with science.

Ok-you for sure know better than I. I have never been
anywhere near the middle east, and have no desire
to ever go there.

As for my observation or criticism about memorizing v
understanding, it can well be directed at China.

 

[Audie]

Saudi Arabia was like the time of Christ in the 1940s.. They didn't know what a work week was.. There were no roads, telephones, radio.. no clean water.They have come a long, long way.. and their work in hy-solar since the 1980s is pretty cool.

Taiwan, Korea, Japan, China, Germany, all were
devastated in the war.

They all, by enormous effort, brought themselves
from there to the powerhouses they are today, and
they did it without any help. The money came from
children helping their mothers make little paper
parasols to sell to GIs, things like that, then they
went on to the next step.

The Arab states had outside companies find and
develop the oil, and then they used the money,
as they do today, to bring in labour and experts
to build them nice stuff. And let the few live
in grotesque extravagance. That is what they
still are doing.

Personally, I think that their splendor will look
like that of Detroit, whenever it happens that
the money river dries up.

detroit ruins - Google Search:

 

[sooda]

A point about the long ages before the flood. I think some people may think thats just in the bible. But theres many extra biblical sources corroborating this. The sumarian king list is one such example.


That is here original source >

The Sumerian king list: translation

 

[sooda]

I think that Islam started falling apart after the passing of Muhammad PBUH. Saudi Islam especially is excessive and a disappointment to me.

Really? I always liked the Saudis.

 

[sooda]

Taiwan, Korea, Japan, China, Germany, all were
devastated in the war.

They all, by enormous effort, brought themselves
from there to the powerhouses they are today, and
they did it without any help. The money came from
children helping their mothers make little paper
parasols to sell to GIs, things like that, then they
went on to the next step.

The Arab states had outside companies find and
develop the oil, and then they used the money,
as they do today, to bring in labour and experts
to build them nice stuff. And let the few live
in grotesque extravagance. That is what they
still are doing.

Personally, I think that their splendor will look
like that of Detroit, whenever it happens that
the money river dries up.

detroit ruins - Google Search:

ARAMCO always employed Saudis and educated the brightest and the best.. Now they run Saudi ARAMCO and its the largest, most efficient , well integrated oil company in the world with downstream manufacturing that employs 500,000 people.

 

[sooda]

Noah's flood was a local river flood about 2900 B.C.; the ark was a commercial river barge; Noah was a king of the Sumerian city Shuruppak; the river flood lasted only six days; the ark grounded twice but not on a mountain; after grounding, Noah met other survivors of the flood; the site of Noah's altar has been found and excavated; Noah lived to be 83 not 950.

 

[Audie]

ARAMCO always employed Saudis and educated the brightest and the best.. Now they run Saudi ARAMCO and its the largest, most efficient , well integrated oil company in the world with downstream manufacturing that employs 500,000 people.

Is this by way of subtracting 1% of the full validity
of what I said?

 

[Audie]

Noah's flood was a local river flood about 2900 B.C.; the ark was a commercial river barge; Noah was a king of the Sumerian city Shuruppak; the river flood lasted only six days; the ark grounded twice but not on a mountain; after grounding, Noah met other survivors of the flood; the site of Noah's altar has been found and excavated; Noah lived to be 83 not 950.

This is some kind of bold statement of facts not in evidence,
friend.

 

[sooda]

This is some kind of bold statement of facts not in evidence,
friend.

Well, there is far more evidence than for Noah's global flood.. There's the king's list, flood sediment and cross confirmation in thousands of clay tablets from Sumer and Dilmun... that not only detail business transactions and trade but tell the evolving flood story from the Ziusudra-Epic to the story of Gilgamesh.

There are 6 versions of an ancient flood legend (The Ziusudra Epic, The Atrahasis Epic, The Epic of Gilgamesh, Genesis 6-9, The Berossus History, and The Moses of Khoren)

The Euphrates river basin flooded periodically when snowmelt from the mountains combined with spring rains.. That's what built up the delta in southern Iraq.. You can see it from satellite.

 

[Audie]

Well, there is far more evidence than for Noah's global flood.. There's the king's list, flood sediment and cross confirmation in thousands of clay tablets from Sumer and Dilmun... that not only detail business transactions and trade but tell the evolving flood story from the Ziusudra-Epic to the story of Gilgamesh.

There are 6 versions of an ancient flood legend (The Ziusudra Epic, The Atrahasis Epic, The Epic of Gilgamesh, Genesis 6-9, The Berossus History, and The Moses of Khoren)

The Euphrates river basin flooded periodically when snowmelt from the mountains combined with spring rains.. That's what built up the delta in southern Iraq.. You can see it from satellite.

As "global" flood has zero data to support it, and
is disproved by such a vast assortment of data
from a thousand thousand sources, to say your
facts have more evidence it not really saying much.

That rivers have flood plains is kind of well known.
There are quite a few rivers like that.

(note-I do have a double major, bio and geology)

One can trace any number of flood events in various
rivers' flood plains. Nothing special about Babylon,
that way. No need for a clay tablet to confirm that
the rivers flooded, sometimes "exceedingly".

Now, you made very specific statements about
"Noah", which I called facts not in evidence.

It appears that everything you said about Noah
and purported ark-by-any-other-name, other
than words like "river", and, "flood" have no demonstrable
basis in fact.

So why do you say them as if they can be substantiated?

 

[sooda]

As "global" flood has zero data to support it, and
is disproved by such a vast assortment of data
from a thousand thousand sources, to say your
facts have more evidence it not really saying much.

That rivers have flood plains is kind of well known.
There are quite a few rivers like that.

(note-I do have a double major, bio and geology)

One can trace any number of flood events in various
rivers' flood plains. Nothing special about Babylon,
that way. No need for a clay tablet to confirm that
the rivers flooded, sometimes "exceedingly".

Now, you made very specific statements about
"Noah", which I called facts not in evidence.

It appears that everything you said about Noah
and purported ark-by-any-other-name, other
than words like "river", and, "flood" have no demonstrable
basis in fact.

So why do you say them as if they can be substantiated?

Because of the sheer numbers of ancient clay tablets from Mesopotamia and Dilmun.

None of the six flood stories developed independently.

Parallels Between Flood Myths

 

[Audie]

Because of the sheer numbers of ancient clay tablets from Mesopotamia and Dilmun.

None of the six flood stories developed independently.

Parallels Between Flood Myths

NONE of that in the remotest way backs up
any of your specific assertions about "Noah".

You've failed twice now, completely. Why
do you persist?

aka, So why do you say them as if they can be substantiated?

 

[sooda]

NONE of that in the remotest way backs up
any of your specific assertions about "Noah".

You've failed twice now, completely. Why
do you persist?

aka, So why do you say them as if they can be substantiated?

By all means believe in a global flood in Genesis.

 

[Audie]

By all means believe in a global flood in Genesis.

By all means make up something insulting and false
about me, as a way of dodging any responsibility
for your false claims about "Noah".

Looks as if we can quit here, you've shown
what you are well enough.

 

[sooda]

By all means make up something insulting and false
about me, as a way of dodging any responsibility
for your false claims about "Noah".

Looks as if we can quit here, you've shown
what you are well enough.

Why would I make up something insulting about you? The only thing I know about you is that you are female and a geologist.

I really don't care much if you think the Sumer mythos is of no value.

 

[Audie]

Why would I make up something insulting about you? The only thing I know about you is that you are female and a geologist.

I really don't care much if you think the Sumer mythos is of no value.

I offered a possible explanation for why you did it- to
put this on me, anything but admit that your specifics
about "Noah" have any basis other than opinion.

Nothing whatever I have said indicated that I believe
in the genesis account, so, what you said was simply
made up. You ask yourself why you would do that,
if my guess is wrong.

You certainly have continued to fail to in any way
show that your claims about Noah are anything
but pure fantasy.

It is not Sumer that is of no value. It is your assertions
of fact. Adding in that made up thing about me just
underlines how unreliable anything from you actually
is.

Oh, and I am not a geologist. Got that wrong too.

 

[sooda]

I offered a possible explanation for why you did it- to
put this on me, anything but admit that your specifics
about "Noah" have any basis other than opinion.

Nothing whatever I have said indicated that I believe
in the genesis account, so, what you said was simply
made up. You ask yourself why you would do that,
if my guess is wrong.

You certainly have continued to fail to in any way
show that your claims about Noah are anything
but pure fantasy.

It is not Sumer that is of no value. It is your assertions
of fact. Adding in that made up thing about me just
underlines how unreliable anything from you actually
is.

Oh, and I am not a geologist. Got that wrong too.

Why don't you let it go?

I thought you said you had a degree in geology.

Anyway.. I am not going to put up anymore information on this ancient myth. Bye.

 

[Audie]

Why don't you let it go?

I thought you said you had a degree in geology.

Anyway.. I am not going to put up anymore information on this ancient myth. Bye.

Any more info?? Ha. You never put up anything
to support your silly claims like how many times
"Noah" ran aground.

Why not let it go? Because it amused me to see
you trying to dodge responsibility for your falsehoods,
and somehow put fault on me for it.

Kind of a game, to see how far a person will go,
when the are cornered and cannot admit that
their claims are phony. Took you a while, but
you finally ran.

Well, you did get a laugh. Good work.