Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[oldbadger]

It's funny in some ways and strange in others how the different Baha'is react and respond to us. The Baha'is I knew and loved were on the very liberal side. Unfortunately, a lot of them left the Baha'i Faith.

Ah........ I didn't know any 'liberal Bahai' Bahais.
When, as a widower, I met and started dating my girlfriend (now my wife) some of the Bahai women that I knew became very disgruntled with me, and one day when visiting a Bahai's home the hostess lost it and started shouting at me that I should marry my girlfriend. She clearly didn't understand English Law, couldn't realise that I had to see my children sorted and paid off as their mother would have wished before I could marry. I never went back. When people do that to me I close doors.

But now back to the OP... How old was Noah when he first had a son? Oh dang, I'm supposed to do my own homework. Hmmm... 500 years old. How old when the flood came? Hmmm... 600 years old. So the Baha'is say the 950 years is the "dispensation" of Noah. Do I dare ask the Baha'is how they explain away that Noah was 500 when his first son was born and 600 years old when the Flood started? I don't see how that fits into their "dispensation" explanation. Or does that sound too "bitter" and "venomous"? Sorry to be asking you, but who else can I ask and get a straight answer without "double-speak"?

You are joking! I never heard that one before.
Hang on...............
QUESTION! :- How many 'Manifestations of God' have there been? My OT knowledge is rubbish.... I need you to fill in the gaps.

Adam?
Noah?
Abraham?
Moses?
The OT Prophets (I must go out.... is my excuise )
Hosea?
Daniel?
Jesus?
Muhammad?
etc?
.....
I must go out....... could you please list those that you know of? We need the whole list.... ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Ah........ I didn't know any 'liberal Bahai' Bahais.
When, as a widower, I met and started dating my girlfriend (now my wife) some of the Bahai women that I knew became very disgruntled with me, and one day when visiting a Bahai's home the hostess lost it and started shouting at me that I should marry my girlfriend. She clearly didn't understand English Law, couldn't realise that I had to see my children sorted and paid off as their mother would have wished before I could marry. I never went back. When people do that to me I close doors.

Your doors were already closed from the beginning.

You are joking! I never heard that one before.
Hang on...............
QUESTION! :- How many 'Manifestations of God' have there been? My OT knowledge is rubbish.... I need you to fill in the gaps.

Adam?
Noah?
Abraham?
Moses?
The OT Prophets (I must go out.... is my excuise )
Hosea?
Daniel?
Jesus?
Muhammad?
etc?
.....
I must go out....... could you please list those that you know of? We need the whole list.... ?

Simply your can read the Baha'i writings and answer the questions. Do your own homework as what the Baha'i writings describe.as to how many Manifestations there were.

As far as the Baha'i writings are concerned the details of the stories and history of ancient scripture are concerned they are not important. They are the human side of story telling common to all human cultures, They do contain moral lessons, and allegory relevance to how humans viewed God and Revelation. The importance of the ancient scriptures is the evolution of the spiritual principles and laws through Revelation as the spiritual heritage of humanity.

You are correct that many of the stories of Genesis and other scripture evolved from folk stories and myths of ancient cultures,but also based on some factual events in history. For example the flood of Noah is most likely based on a catastrophic flood of the Tigris Euphrates valley and recorded in Sumarian cuneiform tablets.

 

[oldbadger]

So again, one more time... if a Baha'i says that the 950 years refers to Noah's "dispensation", they are wrong. But, you say the 950 years is not time in "human" years and Noah lived to be 120? What are the Baha'i references for that? And does it include all the people that supposedly lived to be hundreds of years old.

Now to push my agenda... I think the writer made it up. Along with borrowing myths and legends from other cultures. Or, if it's all true... then I'll push my other agenda. Praise Jesus. I knew he was right all along. Or, if the Baha'i symbolic interpretation is right... then my agenda is... I never doubted Shunyadragon, Adrian, Tony, Trailblazer, Investigate Truth and Lover of humanity and the others... I knew they were telling the truth from the beginning.

NOAH
It would appear that somebody wrote to somebody on behalf of 'the Guardian' in connection with Noah's age, and this letter reads thus:-
"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)

..... and so, if Bahais accept this letter, then Noah's stated age of 950 years neither refers to his real age, NOR his dispensation, and so all bets are off for both suggestions here....... unless anybody wants to claim the letter for a fake?

THE FLOOD:-
In a similar kind of communication....... :-
"The statement in 'Seven Days of Creation' certainly cannot be considered authoritative or correct. The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 28, 1949: Baha'i News, No. 228, February 1950, p. 4; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1716)
............ which is OK, I suppose, although large floods in that area could have initiated this story.

And then we get this rubbish (imo) about the Exodus:-

"The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption."
('Abdu'l-Bahá: Daily Lessons Received at Akka, p. 45, 1979 ed.; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1678)

Spiritual journey.......... huh!
If it was a spiritual journey, then the moon would not have needed to be (just after?) FULL and in the SPRING EQUINOX delivering a LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL EBB through a (imo) REED SEA which only Israelite slaves would have farmed for papyrus and other products/foods. I could go on further but I think the point is made.....
Spiritual Journey......... oh dear......


Sorry...... rant over...... I haven't got any of those meds that you take.

 

[shunyadragon]

NOAH
It would appear that somebody wrote to somebody on behalf of 'the Guardian' in connection with Noah's age, and this letter reads thus:-
"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)

..... and so, if Bahais accept this letter, then Noah's stated age of 950 years neither refers to his real age, NOR his dispensation, and so all bets are off for both suggestions here....... unless anybody wants to claim the letter for a fake?

THE FLOOD:-
In a similar kind of communication....... :-
"The statement in 'Seven Days of Creation' certainly cannot be considered authoritative or correct. The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 28, 1949: Baha'i News, No. 228, February 1950, p. 4; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1716)
............ which is OK, I suppose, although large floods in that area could have initiated this story.

And then we get this rubbish (imo) about the Exodus:-

"The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption."
('Abdu'l-Bahá: Daily Lessons Received at Akka, p. 45, 1979 ed.; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1678)

Spiritual journey.......... huh!
If it was a spiritual journey, then the moon would not have needed to be (just after?) FULL and in the SPRING EQUINOX delivering a LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL EBB through a (imo) REED SEA which only Israelite slaves would have farmed for papyrus and other products/foods. I could go on further but I think the point is made.....
Spiritual Journey......... oh dear......


Sorry...... rant over...... I haven't got any of those meds that you take.

Oh dear! Don't take meds, but your meds are your problem. Continue aggressively proselytizing against Baha'is as you like to justify your agenda.

As far as the Baha'i writings are concerned the details of the stories and history of ancient scripture are concerned they are not important. They are the human side of story telling common to all human cultures, They do contain moral lessons, and allegory relevance to how humans viewed God and Revelation. The importance of the ancient scriptures is the evolution of the spiritual principles and laws through Revelation as the spiritual heritage of humanity.

 

[oldbadger]

Oh dear! Don't take meds, but your meds are your problem. Continue aggressively proselytizing against Baha'is as you like to justify your agenda.

How can meds be my problem if don't take any?
It's true that Bahai has been given a thorough debating in recent moths..... pity you weren't around to add your polite replies......

As far as the Baha'i writings are concerned the details of the stories and history of ancient scripture are concerned they are not important.

Well don't tell us all about them, then!

They are the human side of story telling common to all human cultures, They do contain moral lessons, and allegory relevance to how humans viewed God and Revelation. The importance of the ancient scriptures is the evolution of the spiritual principles and laws through Revelation as the spiritual heritage of humanity.

Spiritual principles and heritage.... duh!
I don't see anything spiritual about your particular posts, you know.......

Leaving aside the 106 rules and laws for ceremony and sacrifice, the other 507 laws of Moses were totally and entirely concerned with enabling and facilitating a very very successful Israelite nation. Nothing spiritual about it all.

 

[Audie]

The way i look at this is, there is a ocean of information out there in the science world. Ive read alot, i barely remember most of it. But, alot of this stuff has to be interpreted and explained. Scientists, scholars disagree amongs themselves. And consensus i dont pay attention to, because just because most believe this or that, dont make it so. What most believe can be stupid too.

I try to look at the ACTUAL data and understand it.

But, despite all that, i still dont have a problem with a local flood.

But the old ages, i cant see this as not being literal. It just looks too literal as i read it.

The amont of leeway on a reasonable interpretstion
of data, and the level on which there may be disagreement
on data that could relate to ye flood is irrelevant to
whether anyone says there is evidence for a flood.

It is more like disagreements over this or that detail
of ancient Rone.

No educated person with intellectual integrity
doubts there was ancient Rome, or believes there was
a world wide flood.

 

[Jollybear]

The amont of leeway on a reasonable interpretstion
of data, and the level on which there may be disagreement
on data that could relate to ye flood is irrelevant to
whether anyone says there is evidence for a flood.

It is more like disagreements over this or that detail
of ancient Rone.

No educated person with intellectual integrity
doubts there was ancient Rome, or believes there was
a world wide flood.

What a nice way to shut down all open, intellectual discussion.

 

[Audie]

What a nice way to shut down all open, intellectual discussion.

That is not the intent. And I dont
think your sarcasm is called for.

Is your mind made up, on the matter?

If you are a flood advocate, and have solid
evidence for it, please do share. Never let it
be said I will not change my mind on anything,
given a reason to.

Can you say the same?

No comment at all on my first
paragraph, which directly addressed
something you said?

 

[shunyadragon]

How can meds be my problem if don't take any?

It is more than obvious you do have an agenda,and based on the tone of you posts it is more like a vendetta.

It's true that Baha'i has been given a thorough debating in recent moths..... pity you weren't around to add your polite replies......

I'm Irish do not expect Bon Bons, especially to one who has a vendetta against the Baha'i Faith

Well don't tell us all about them, then!

I believe you are perfectly able to read for yourself, or am I overstating your basics in reading capability. I do not spoon feed. It is apparent that you have been aware of the Baha'i Faith for a long time, but choose to remain ignorant and fail to simply read and understand even the basics.

Spiritual principles and heritage.... duh!
I don't see anything spiritual about your particular posts, you know.......

Your vendetta extends to Ad hominem fallacy .A history of personal attacks are your modus operandi. I am human like everyone else but you. You have known about the Baha'i Faith for years,and your door closed long ago apparently your vendetta is based on fallible human judgments.

Leaving aside the 106 rules and laws for ceremony and sacrifice, the other 507 laws of Moses were totally and entirely concerned with enabling and facilitating a very very successful Israelite nation. Nothing spiritual about it all.

Your being selective of condemning the cultural characteristics of fallible humans and not spiritual principles that were evolving through the religions of history.

 

[CG Didymus]

NOAH
It would appear that somebody wrote to somebody on behalf of 'the Guardian' in connection with Noah's age, and this letter reads thus:-
"The years of Noah are not years as we count them, and as our teachings do not state that this reference to years means His dispensation, we cannot interpret it this way."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, November 25, 1950; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1659)

..... and so, if Bahais accept this letter, then Noah's stated age of 950 years neither refers to his real age, NOR his dispensation, and so all bets are off for both suggestions here....... unless anybody wants to claim the letter for a fake?

THE FLOOD:-
In a similar kind of communication....... :-
"The statement in 'Seven Days of Creation' certainly cannot be considered authoritative or correct. The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical."
(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, October 28, 1949: Baha'i News, No. 228, February 1950, p. 4; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1716)
............ which is OK, I suppose, although large floods in that area could have initiated this story.

And then we get this rubbish (imo) about the Exodus:-

"The crossing of the Red Sea has a spiritual meaning. It was a spiritual journey, through and above the sea of corruption and iniquity of the Pharaoh and his people, or army. By the help of God through Moses, the Israelites were able to cross this sea safely and reach the Promised Land (spiritual state) while Pharaoh and his people were drowned in their own corruption."
('Abdu'l-Bahá: Daily Lessons Received at Akka, p. 45, 1979 ed.; quoted in Lights of Guidance, no. 1678)

Spiritual journey.......... huh!
If it was a spiritual journey, then the moon would not have needed to be (just after?) FULL and in the SPRING EQUINOX delivering a LOWEST ASTRONOMICAL EBB through a (imo) REED SEA which only Israelite slaves would have farmed for papyrus and other products/foods. I could go on further but I think the point is made.....
Spiritual Journey......... oh dear......


Sorry...... rant over...... I haven't got any of those meds that you take.

Ahh, so that clears it up. He wasn't 950 years old in the way we count years. And, although I swear some Baha'i here told me so, 950 years was not Noah's "dispensation." So what am I to make of all that? I can't trust the Bible for what it says? Except the prophecies that are used to point to the Bab and Baha'u'llah of course.

So the Red Sea and the Flood are symbolic? But nobody knew this until the Baha'i Faith told us? All those years Rabbi's and preachers telling us that we can trust in the Bible... that it is the "Word of God". But the Red Sea and the Flood aren't that big a deal, the big fake story, oops, I mean "symbolic" story... is that Jesus rose from the dead. When in reality after 3 days the disciples took heart and started living by the teachings of Jesus and thus brought "life" into the dead body, the church, of Jesus.

Oh, and thanks for taking the heat off me and taking on yourself. All I had was an agenda. You've got an agenda and a vendetta. Good luck. I've got to go take my bitterness meds now and then go do my homework.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not the intent. And I dont
think your sarcasm is called for.

Is your mind made up, on the matter?

If you are a flood advocate, and have solid
evidence for it, please do share. Never let it
be said I will not change my mind on anything,
given a reason to.

Can you say the same?

No comment at all on my first
paragraph, which directly addressed
something you said?

Unfortunately, 100% of the evidence true believers of the Bible need, is the Bible. Any scientific evidence is more for non-believers and those that are wavering in their faith. But, I like some the "scientific" evidence that Christians bring to "prove" a young Earth and the Flood. But, I ain't going to study it or argue in favor of it or have much to do with it. If it's true, it's true. If it's a myth, it's a myth. But, since by Christian standards, I'm a hopelessly lost sinner, then I hope the Bible is a myth.

 

[Vinayaka]

Oh, and thanks for taking the heat off me and taking on yourself. All I had was an agenda. You've got an agenda and a vendetta. Good luck. I've got to go take my bitterness meds now and then go do my homework.

I have a vendetta too. (Feeling left out.)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh, and thanks for taking the heat off me and taking on yourself. All I had was an agenda. You've got an agenda and a vendetta. Good luck.

I have a vendetta too. (Feeling left out.)

You are all welccome to post what you wish to.

Everyone must learn the wisdom of what to reply to and what to leave alone.

RF has been a good platform to learn this sound lesson.

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

Unfortunately, 100% of the evidence true believers of the Bible need, is the Bible. Any scientific evidence is more for non-believers and those that are wavering in their faith. But, I like some the "scientific" evidence that Christians bring to "prove" a young Earth and the Flood. But, I ain't going to study it or argue in favor of it or have much to do with it. If it's true, it's true. If it's a myth, it's a myth. But, since by Christian standards, I'm a hopelessly lost sinner, then I hope the Bible is a myth.

Hope as ya like, some of it is myth. What isnt, nobody
knows.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have a vendetta too. (Feeling left out.)

I thought you were Mr. Take it out of Context guy? I'm Bitter and Venomous. And, you've met Mr. Vendetta. If you're ever feeling left out, doubt worry, we're here for you. So I guess the Baha'i Faith can unite people with different beliefs and different backgrounds.

 

[CG Didymus]

You are all welccome to post what you wish to.

Everyone must learn the wisdom of what to reply to and what to leave alone.

RF has been a good platform to learn this sound lesson.

Regards Tony

You know there is a hidden, symbolic message in the comments. I think you are humble enough and wise enough to figure it out.

 

[Jollybear]

That is not the intent. And I dont
think your sarcasm is called for.

Is your mind made up, on the matter?

If you are a flood advocate, and have solid
evidence for it, please do share. Never let it
be said I will not change my mind on anything,
given a reason to.

Can you say the same?

No comment at all on my first
paragraph, which directly addressed
something you said?

There is evidence for floods all over the world. Some say that means one worldwide flood, some say thats a bunch of local floods everywhere at different times.

In anycase, i dont have a problem with noahs flood being local.

But neither do i discount a global flood only on the grounds of "consensus". As if consensus cant be wrong. As if consensus cant miss something. As if consensus does not have a wide mix of individuals who have biases, ignorences, sometimes flat out dishonestys, stupidity, wanting to fit in with there peers, ect, ect.

I dont go by consensus, i go by the desire to understand and learn. Consensus shuts that off.

Like, consensus all says THIS.

Ok, well id like to understand "THIS"

You see the difference?

 

[CG Didymus]

Hope as ya like, some of it is myth. What isnt, nobody
knows.

But to the true believers, it isn't myth. I knew Evangelical Christians take the Bible very literal, I didn't know that some Muslims do too. And who's fault is it that people do take it too literal, if in fact it shouldn't be? Is it God himself? Or, religious leaders speaking for God?

Baha'is have said that a manifestation comes to correct the errors of the religion brought by the previous manifestation. But, with the Flood, Jesus and Muhammad did not correct the belief that the Flood was literal. In fact, Moses didn't come until after the Flood. He could have said that it was only a symbolic story. But no, too many in those Abrahamic religions present their Scriptures as if they are the inerrant, infallible Word of God. If their God is real, then at least part of the blame has to be on him. He allowed his messages to get @&*%^# up and misunderstood.

 

[oldbadger]

Ahh, so that clears it up. He wasn't 950 years old in the way we count years. And, although I swear some Baha'i here told me so, 950 years was not Noah's "dispensation." So what am I to make of all that? I can't trust the Bible for what it says? Except the prophecies that are used to point to the Bab and Baha'u'llah of course.

So the Red Sea and the Flood are symbolic? But nobody knew this until the Baha'i Faith told us? All those years Rabbi's and preachers telling us that we can trust in the Bible... that it is the "Word of God". But the Red Sea and the Flood aren't that big a deal, the big fake story, oops, I mean "symbolic" story... is that Jesus rose from the dead. When in reality after 3 days the disciples took heart and started living by the teachings of Jesus and thus brought "life" into the dead body, the church, of Jesus.

Oh, and thanks for taking the heat off me and taking on yourself. All I had was an agenda. You've got an agenda and a vendetta. Good luck. I've got to go take my bitterness meds now and then go do my homework.

Yep........ it does appear that the Guardian discounted both the idea that 950 years was/is symbolic of Noah's dispensation, and that he never lived so long. If we can accept that somebody wrote to somebody on the Guardian's behalf. It's come to the point where I mistrust Bahai, you know, and if it should ever become necessary for Bahai to plump for one or other of the above, all that is needed is for a Bahai authority to declare that it is unsure whether or not the Guardian ever dictated any such letter/s.

I thought that only Sicilians raised vendettas? Godfather kind of stuff? Where I live we are more likely to raise a pint glass and drink the health of our enemies, because life can be so boring without 'em.

 

[oldbadger]

Unfortunately, 100% of the evidence true believers of the Bible need, is the Bible. Any scientific evidence is more for non-believers and those that are wavering in their faith. But, I like some the "scientific" evidence that Christians bring to "prove" a young Earth and the Flood. But, I ain't going to study it or argue in favor of it or have much to do with it. If it's true, it's true. If it's a myth, it's a myth. But, since by Christian standards, I'm a hopelessly lost sinner, then I hope the Bible is a myth.

Heh heh! ..... if you're wrong.......
Didymus, struggling up the long winding staircase, and Saint Peter standing at the top, looking down, with a great big toothy grin ......... saying, 'Come on up! Don't Dawdle! I'm waiting!!'