Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[Dawnofhope]

Not that I believe it, but those YEC say that there was more oxygen in the air. And that there was a bunch of water in the "heavens" that protected people from the harmful rays. Then, that bubble burst. The Earth opened up and water came gushing out and nothing has been the same since. Or, something like that. Oh, and they say that it never rained until the flood. I wonder if Muslims believe as literally as the YEC'ers?

They do.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, there goes "unity of religion", oh well. I guess I'll catch it again as the next prophet comes along and abrogates Baha'u'llah's satire religion.

I don't know what unity of religion means for you, but for Baha'is it means they originate from the same spiritual source. Religions can be like trees. They grow, bear fruit, whither and eventually die. It doesn't mean they will all merge into one.

 

[oldbadger]

We have a couple of Jews on our interfaith council who have joined the church of Scientology. It’s been a challenge for some of us.

I wonder if there are any reps for scientology ion RF.

There wasn’t a worldwide flood.

Actually there have been several, only not with water. Read up about the mass extinction events.

People don’t live to 950 years of age.

Not now, but we don't know about the distant past with possible intelligent intervention.

Reincarnation is a myth.

Prove it.

There was no resurrection of Christ.

OK...

There’s no Satan.

Hmmm..... true....

Muhammad didn’t split the moon in two.

I wasn't there....

But Bahai believes in spirituality but somehow denies the existence of spirits. It's just weird imo.

But if people want to believe some or all of these, that is their right. We are entitled to believe as we believe. But when Muslims, Christians and Hindu fundamentalists promote religious bigotry that’s where the line needs to be drawn.

What!!!! ???? Coming from a Bahai that's well out-of-order!
Bahai think's that it's IT for the religious path to God and a perfect World Order. Wow!

When one religious adherent promotes hatred, intolerance against another...

If Bahai was bigger, it would probably be seen as badder. You're just under the radar at this time.

 

[shunyadragon]

We were talking about the bible. Let's stick to the bible.
Scripture is the word used for what is shown in the bible. But much of what is shown in the bible is a witness account, and therefore it has value as evidence. The fact that it is old evidence and the writer long deceased affects its value but it is EVIDENCE.

The evidence is overwhelming, Genesis and the rest of the Pentateuch is compiled, edited and redacted well after 1000 BCE, and not written by Moses. Evidence is clear most of the Bible is not first hand accounts.

The word TESTIMONY means a kind of EVIDENCE. By all means seek verification, but a seeker might do better to search for any CORROBORATION to support statements made by the deceased.
In the case of the flood story I think that we all know that evidence for great floods exists in the Mid-East area where Noah lived. I don't see any problem with reports of the flood covering everywhere.
And so..... the 'flood covered the world' is as true as a French person describing a vehicle gridlock as affecting 'Tout le Monde'! Or would you call him a liar and demand geological/photographic evidence for the car-jam?

First, testimony is only evidence if it is first hand evidence, and corroborated by objective verifiable evidence and the accounts in Genesis fail on all counts. Simply accounts of local and regional floods offer no support for a Noah's world flood.

Actually the subject is Islam and the Quran, but nonetheless, , ,

That's a contradiction, right there...... if the evidence was overwhelming then there would be lots of it. I think you're saying that there is none. But in fact we know that there is evidence for really big floods there..... and mostly everywhere else, actually, just not all at the same time.

There is none involving the world flood. The evidence is for local and regional catastrophic floods not remotely associated with a Noah flood. Archaeological and geologic evidence is for a regional flood in the Tigris Euphrates valleys about 2900 BCE and recorded in the Sumarian cuneiform tablets that were later the basis for the Genesis account.

The flood in China is well documented Chinese account of a catastrophic river flood confirmed by geologic evidence. The catastrophic floods of Japan and the Northwest Native American are local accounts are documented Tsunami floods and confirmed by geologic evidence.

 

[Quintessence]

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[spirit_of_dawn]

We have a couple of Jews on our interfaith council who have joined the church of Scientology. It’s been a challenge for some of us. I don’t believe Ron Hubbard was any kind of prophet or enlightened person. There wasn’t a worldwide flood. People don’t live to 950 years of age. Reincarnation is a myth. There was no resurrection of Christ. There’s no Satan. Muhammad didn’t split the moon in two. But if people want to believe some or all of these, that is their right. We are entitled to believe as we believe. But when Muslims, Christians and Hindu fundamentalists promote religious bigotry that’s where the line needs to be drawn. When one religious adherent promotes hatred, intolerance against another...

From what I have researched, it seems that since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles, he decided to deny all other miracles.

As for reincarnation, if anyone is interested, Baha'u'llah claims in the suppressed scripture that he was Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and a number of other people. And he simply appeared as one of them in every age. You can read the translations here:

Will the UHJ re-institute Guardianship allowing Women to serve as Guardians? Or amend the restriction on women serving in the UHJ? : bahai

 

[Dawnofhope]

From what I have researched, it seems that since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles, he decided to deny all other miracles.

As for reincarnation, if anyone is interested, Baha'u'llah claims in the suppressed scripture that he was Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and a number of other people. And he simply appeared as one of them in every age. You can read the translations here:

Will the UHJ re-institute Guardianship allowing Women to serve as Guardians? Or amend the restriction on women serving in the UHJ? : bahai

This is completely unrelated to the OP topic. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Although I do agree with your idea against revisionism, you don't seem to know the difference between the symbolic, metaphorical and allegorical. These words don't mean the same thing.
Your quoted post is about allegory, not the symbolic.

As long as you figured out what I meant, then I'm good with that. The point is... that Baha'is make the Creation symbolic, the Flood symbolic, the resurrection of Jesus symbolic. But, did the people writing about these things think they were symbolic or actual things that really happened?

Since early Christians and a lot of Christians today still believe these things to be literally true, then I think that is exactly what the writer intended them to be. If those things didn't happen, then the writer was wrong. But, I really don't think that the writer wrote the story as if he was writing actual history, and that he only meant the story to be taken symbolically.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ah ha! I can think of other incarnations that I would prefer. Could I have a better physique next time, please? My Abs and Pecs are rubbish.

How so many great brains of the world could argue over what some folks wrote about a great flood is surprising.

Imagine asking a French person about the massive gridlock that hindered their motorway journey last week, and when they start shouting about it covering 'Tout le Monde!' I could call the geezer a bleedin' liar 'cos on that same day I took my Missus to work in Herne Bay without any trouble.

Symbol.... Metaphor..... Allegory......

You literally want me to answer that? You know what though, I never looked up those words. I've just been throwing out the words that Baha'is have used... probably correctly, not like me, but still... What Baha'is are trying to say is you can't take the Bible literally 'cause it is symbolic, a metaphor, allegorical, figurative, or something, but definitely it didn't happen.

Like the Flood, they say it scientifically couldn't have happened therefore, God must have some kind of symbolic meaning in the story. They make the water represent something. The Ark is something. And by the time we're done, they have a perfect explanation why the Bible is wrong, if taken literally.

I don't know why it just can't be called "myth" and say that people told these stories as if they were true to get their people to follow some rules and beliefs of their society. I don't see them telling the people, "We believe in a metaphorical supreme being, that sent an allegorical flood to kill all the symbolical people that were doing literally a lot of bad things.

Same thing with Jesus rising from the dead. I could just imagine preachers saying to believe in a symbolically risen Savior that can save you from an allegorical hell. No, they preach and seem to believe it is the real honest to God truth. Obviously the are wrong. They are using the Bible for evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

OK.......... I'm cool with your opinion.... no probs.

You mentioned, or that member mentioned David's fight with Goliath. ....:-
David is [Word] of the weak and downtrodden. Goliath is [Word] of the powerful, evil tyrants. Hmmm? The small stone is the Word of truth... that in the hands of the weak and downtrodden can defeat the mighty. Yes, yes, it does work!

For what it's worth I take the above fight as a real event. A small young person selected the right stone and slung it in to a giant's head, knocking him unconscious for long enough to kill the giant. No need for any further complication.

But I have used a sling all my days from 13yrs up until now, and twenty years ago I could put a stone through a door panel at 30 yards without trouble. I watch the news about Gaza and see film of young people with extra long (distance) slings slinging rocks hundreds of yards in to groups of Israeli soldiers and I know what these can do.

I think that David was of the tribe of Benjamin...... the shepherds....... maybe someone can confirm or correct..... those guys were the deadliest with the sling, I believe.

Oh yes..... David stoned that giant alright...... no probs. No Metaphor, Symbol or Allegory required.

Next you're going to tell me all those supposed skeletons of giants are real and one of them had a rock stuck in his forehead.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think you are have PTSD from debating with the Baha’is for too long.

What do I need Doc? A pill? Some rest and relaxation? Nah, when it comes to Vinayaka, I can't help my self, I gotta try and make a joke or say something allegorically funny.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What do I need Doc? A pill? Some rest and relaxation? Nah, when it comes to Vinayaka, I can't help my self, I gotta try and make a joke or say something allegorically funny.

For a few here I might prescribe a chill pill, maybe even step it up.....

You seen pretty cool to me.

 

[CG Didymus]

We have a couple of Jews on our interfaith council who have joined the church of Scientology. It’s been a challenge for some of us. I don’t believe Ron Hubbard was any kind of prophet or enlightened person. There wasn’t a worldwide flood. People don’t live to 950 years of age. Reincarnation is a myth. There was no resurrection of Christ. There’s no Satan. Muhammad didn’t split the moon in two. But if people want to believe some or all of these, that is their right. We are entitled to believe as we believe. But when Muslims, Christians and Hindu fundamentalists promote religious bigotry that’s where the line needs to be drawn. When one religious adherent promotes hatred, intolerance against another...

Even though most people would agree that doing bad things in the name of religion is terrible and those doing are... nut jobs, how do Baha'is handle it?

'Cause I know there is some Baha'i teaching that says something like that if a person has a whole bunch of bad qualities and only one good one, to look at that one good one. How do you do that with religious radicals? Or, even with those that don't hurt others physically but have radically fundamental beliefs that promote that their religion is the only one that is right?

 

[CG Didymus]

For a few here I might prescribe a chill pill, maybe even step it up.....

You seen pretty cool to me.

Ahh gosh, you Baha'is are alright too... sometimes. Even Tony, where is that guy? Did he go walkabout or something?

 

[shunyadragon]

Yeah, yeah... What science did people have thousands of years ago? If I told you Jesus walked on water and healed a leper, you're telling me you'd have the scientific wherewithal to know that it's impossible? It would be like if you told me 750 rifles shot at two men tied up and not moving and missed... how is that possible?

There is an important view of miracles and facts concerning history or science of scripture whether the Bible Quran, Baha'i writings or other ancient literature that the Baha'i writings do not consider the essential Revelation from God. The Baha'is do not consider the reports of miracles as a witness of the truth of Revelation nor critical to base ones belief. Even the miracle of the execution of the Bab witnessed and recorded by western sources, you referenced,is not considered evidence of proof of the Baha'i Revelation.

From: Baha’u’llah, Miracles and the Proof of Religion

"Although many people, both Baha’is and others, reported that they had seen Baha’u’llah perform miracles, just as the prophets of old did, he did not wish for them to be signs of his revelation or proofs of his validity. The Baha’i Faith does not emphasize physical miracles because they are not considered sufficient proof of anything, except for those who actually witnessed them in person.

Moreover, the emphasis on miracles in past religions led to many superstitious and harmful practices, such as not seeking medical attention or believing in unsupportable, unscientific and irrational fears and legends:

… in the sight of the Manifestations these marvels and miracles are of no importance, so much so that they do not even wish them to be mentioned. For even if these miracles were considered the greatest of proofs, they would constitute a clear evidence only for those who were present when they took place, and not for those who were absent. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, p. 113"


The Baha'is consider the spiritual teaching, God;s Laws are the witness of the Revelation. The description of Creation, Noah's flood,and Exodus may be consider true by the writers from the human perspective, but not necessarily factual true nor in and of themselves historical facts inspired by God.

Scripture of the religions contain writings from the human perspective and not necessarily factual concerning history and science.

In the principle of the Harmony of science and religion, the scripture concerning the physical nature of our existence must be understood and interpreted in the light of the evolving nature of scientific knowledge. If not it is possible that it becomes superstition and myth.

From: Healing and Health, from the Scientific to the Spiritual

"If religion were contrary to logical reason then it would cease to be a religion and be merely a tradition. Religion and science are the two wings upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 144."

 

[shunyadragon]

From what I have researched, it seems that since Baha'u'llah couldn't perform miracles, he decided to deny all other miracles.

As for reincarnation, if anyone is interested, Baha'u'llah claims in the suppressed scripture that he was Abraham, Jesus, Muhammad and a number of other people. And he simply appeared as one of them in every age. You can read the translations here:

Will the UHJ re-institute Guardianship allowing Women to serve as Guardians? Or amend the restriction on women serving in the UHJ? : bahai

Your research is flawed, I agree that it is off topic and inaccurate as far as the Baha'i writings and miracles.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Even though most people would agree that doing bad things in the name of religion is terrible and those doing are... nut jobs, how do Baha'is handle it?

We're all human CG. Baha'is hurt and bleed like everyone else. We cope as everyone else does. I'd like to think that living the Baha'i life contributes to being a better person and more able to cope.

We had quite a number of Iranian Baha'i refugees come out our city through the 1980 not long after the Iranian revolution when several hundred Baha'is were killed. One refugee committed suicide. He had been tortured and had his genitals badly mutilated. He was a professional person but his qualifications were non-transferrable to New Zealand. So with no hope of work or a family in a completely foreign country he lost hope.

'Cause I know there is some Baha'i teaching that says something like that if a person has a whole bunch of bad qualities and only one good one, to look at that one good one. How do you do that with religious radicals? Or, even with those that don't hurt others physically but have radically fundamental beliefs that promote that their religion is the only one that is right?

The Baha'i writings repeatedly remind us there is one life, and one life only that we are ultimately responsible and this is our own. We endeavour to treat all those we come across with love and kindness. Some people we need to leave to themselves or avoid.

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

And Your statement is just an ignorant fabrication.

I don't believe in the ahadith. They contradict the Quran, the Gospel, the Psalms and the Tora.

Both Sunni and Shia ahadith are just a fabrication made by the Arab and Persian governments in that time to control people.

 

[oldbadger]

You literally want me to answer that? You know what though, I never looked up those words. I've just been throwing out the words that Baha'is have used... probably correctly, not like me, but still... What Baha'is are trying to say is you can't take the Bible literally 'cause it is symbolic, a metaphor, allegorical, figurative, or something, but definitely it didn't happen.

Like the Flood, they say it scientifically couldn't have happened therefore, God must have some kind of symbolic meaning in the story. They make the water represent something. The Ark is something. And by the time we're done, they have a perfect explanation why the Bible is wrong, if taken literally.

I don't know why it just can't be called "myth" and say that people told these stories as if they were true to get their people to follow some rules and beliefs of their society. I don't see them telling the people, "We believe in a metaphorical supreme being, that sent an allegorical flood to kill all the symbolical people that were doing literally a lot of bad things.

Same thing with Jesus rising from the dead. I could just imagine preachers saying to believe in a symbolically risen Savior that can save you from an allegorical hell. No, they preach and seem to believe it is the real honest to God truth. Obviously the are wrong. They are using the Bible for evidence.

True.......
It can be seen on this thread that Bahai doesn't believe the basic foundations of the other Abrahamic religions, at one moment jumping in to Laboratory Whites, the next trying to be 'spiritual', the next claiming no interest in politics......... blah blah..........

And yet it wants to be related to them all!

I don't mind a religion that (say) tells of how a great cosmic eagle did a dump in the heavens that became our solar system, or whatever....... I certainly wouldn't demand proof by the scientific method, nor would I climb in to a pulpit to rubbish any such belief as satanic.

But what I do get irritated by is wild claims that Bahai makes about the last 150 years. Bahai needs to get honest about these, imo.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Ahh gosh, you Baha'is are alright too... sometimes. Even Tony, where is that guy? Did he go walkabout or something?

At the Tel Aviv airport heading home after 9 day pigrimage. WIFI is good here.

Regards Tony