Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[spirit_of_dawn]

Do you have links to these forums?

They are open forums on reddit.

www.reddit.com/r/iranian
www.reddit.com/r/arabs

 

[CG Didymus]

Many of the stories refer to specific catastrophic regional floods like the Chinese records referring to the catastrophic flood of the Huang He, and Yellow River that have been confirmed by geologic investigations. In Japan and among the Northwestern Native Americans they were Tsunamis.

I'm okay with believing that ancient people took natural disasters and put some kind of spiritual meaning to it. Like if a flood happened, then the gods must be angry at us, so let's go kill some animals as an offering to them. That way, they might not do it again. But. when it is written in the Bible and Quran, and written as if it is a true event, it makes it difficult to believe those religions are telling me reliable things about God and the world around me.

If Christians and Muslims went around preaching about God but said that the stories in their Holy Books were based on legends and myth, or maybe even that they were based on other peoples myths and legends, why would I take them serious? But, they don't do that, Christians especially. They say that the Bible is the factual, infallible, literal Word of God... And that God destroyed the world once, and he's coming back to destroy it again and put an end to wickedness. And all those that don't believe will perish. Now that's pretty dang scary. It made me try and believe... for awhile.

 

[CG Didymus]

You stop making things symbolic and allegorical when it confirms to what Baha'is portray as Baha'i teachings, else it follows a pattern of Baha'i logic that I've been completing in the last few days:

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
8- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
9- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
10- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
11- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
12- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
13- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

I'm a little behind in this thread, but I'll catch up tonight. I can't wait to see what's coming up. I've got some "symbolic" bones to pick with them.

 

[CG Didymus]

According to Baha'u'llah, Noah a metaphorical Prophet, preached for 950 metaphorical years, and then a metaphorical flood destroyed his metaphorical people while he was saved in a metaphorical ship. Does it make more sense now or do I sound like a nutjob?

No, no, that clear it up... metaphorically. Besides, you'd only be a symbolic nut job… not a literal one.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, I feel like I've been reading this stuff for 950 years. Metaphorically.

What if we reincarnate as Baha'is... What would that mean? Of course, in a metaphorical way. Since there is no such thing as reincarnation.

 

[CG Didymus]

Literally it feels like a few millennium.

You are way off. To be "literal", it would have to be 1000 years. Do you understand the error of your ways? If it literally feels like 950 years, it can't feel like 1000 years at the same time.

 

[Vinayaka]

What if we reincarnate as Baha'is... What would that mean? Of course, in a metaphorical way. Since there is no such thing as reincarnation.

Curious question. I'll give you my Hindu sampradaya's take on it, just for interest sake. I've taken a small amount of training on how and where to reincarnate. (I got the wrong address last time, but did find my way home.) It's a question of being born where certain spiritual opportunities exist, and being of VERY clear mind at the point of transition. I have help though.

As for baha'i, I don't think it'll last very much longer, so a soul would really have to do some serious trip planning to figure out where to go. Perhaps at the last bastion, Haifa, but you'd most likely get born into a Jewish family so that wouldn't work would it?

 

[CG Didymus]

This was clarified as a Baha'i citation from Abdul'baha and later Shoghi Effendi. The 950 years are not 950 literal years.

"The Master (Abdu'l Baha) said: "The age of those ancient prophets as recorded in the Old Testament is symbolic. It has a spiritual interpretation. Wert thou informed of the science of anatomy thou wouldst realize that this human mechanism and these material organs cannot last more than one hundred and twenty years."" (Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, volume 13, issue 6, p. 152)

As to where the Baha'i writings consider where in the lineage of Manifestations of God I will have to check.

Thanks, but where I'm going with that is that if Noah's 950 years is the length of his dispensation, then does that make Adams years his dispensation and then all the people between him and Noah would also have to be their "dispensation" wouldn't it? But then, they weren't manifestations as were Adam and Noah. So how are their long lives explained?

 

[CG Didymus]

Curious question. I'll give you my Hindu sampradaya's take on it, just for interest sake. I've taken a small amount of training on how and where to reincarnate. (I got the wrong address last time, but did find my way home.) It's a question of being born where certain spiritual opportunities exist, and being of VERY clear mind at the point of transition. I have help though.

As for baha'i, I don't think it'll last very much longer, so a soul would really have to do some serious trip planning to figure out where to go. Perhaps at the last bastion, Haifa, but you'd most likely get born into a Jewish family so that wouldn't work would it?

So which travel agency should I go to? The one I usually use doesn't have anything for return trips to Earth?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's your own choice that you are responsible for. Creation needs a Hebrew analyses, sinces days mean a period in Hebrew. Six days of Creation doesn't mean it were six earthly days. It were six periods.

Yes i believe there was a huge flood.
Yes i believe there is a person that is called Satan who is real. I believe there are different dimensions.
Yes i believe Jesus Christ is resurrected from death, literal. With the Power of God, everything is possible for Him.

God created so many stars. Why couldn't he do such minor things, in comparison with all those huge stars created with so many power etc.

Give God a chance. Have patience. And witness a miracle yourself. It's personal, nobody can convince you with their stories. You have to witness God's Spirit yourself. Ask, and you shall Receive. Seek, and you will Find.

Thanks... but if what you believe is true, then what about the Baha'is and their "symbolic" flood, and "symbolic" Satan, and "symbolic" resurrection?

 

[Vinayaka]

So which travel agency should I go to? The one I usually use doesn't have anything for return trips to Earth?

Make sure it's Hindu. lol. I heard a story once where some guy tried to leave his own money to himself. It doesn't work that way. But these days it's harder. In the old days of large extended families there was more intent involve. You could practically make arrangements with grandchildren to provide you a new body. My paternal grandfather is now my nephew, for example.

 

[Vinayaka]

So how are their long lives explained?

Metaphorically, the answer to everything.

 

[CG Didymus]

Archaeological, historical and Geological objective verifiable evidence before they can be considered factual history..

Ah, but that has been one of my arguments/questions... Did the writers of those stories know they were allegorical or did they think they were writing "historical" truths? But who knows when the flood story got written down? Was it passed down from generation to generation before someone wrote it down? I would imagine so. But the big thing for me is... was it written down as if true and meant to be believed as true?

This is "God's" Word to those people. They didn't have modern science to disprove it back then, so why would they doubt it?. So my argument has been that I don't think the writer meant it as a "symbolic" story, but he meant it as a factual story. But, if that is the case, then the writer was wrong, and the story probably didn't come from God but from a man... and then he ascribed it to God, or at least said that he was inspired by God.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you look at things (such as Noah) as a mutually exclusive phenomenon of either factual history or mere myth, (regardless of what possible answers could come from either) then you aren't going to get much out of it either option because they're both irrelevant.

But how is it taught to you in Shia Islam? Because if it is not a literal event, then the Jewish Bible has a mythological story in it that was passed on as true. Christians then took it as true. Then whatever you say that Islam teaches. But then, the Baha'is, after all these centuries, says that "no" the story is symbolic... that it never happened.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'is avoid labelling those who have different beliefs to us as 'nut jobs'. It reflects an intolerant and bigoted attitude but go ahead.

Baha'is don't believe there was a flood that covered the whole earth a few thousand years ago. We agree with the vast majority of scientists that are clear there isn't any scientific evidence to support this view. Further, it would have been logistically impossible to gather all the animals of the world together and have them cohabit on a boat together. We don't believe that human beings used to live for nearly a thousand years of age. However if you want to believe all these things to be literally true, and call those who think otherwise nut jobs go ahead.

Excuse me if this has already been said by someone... I'm only on page 4 and trying to catch up. But... what are Scientologists? Sensible, spiritual people that have the answers for today's world or "nut jobs"? "Christian" TV evangelists that lay hands on people and tell them that they will be healed of cancer? Or, those Christians that handle rattlesnakes. Or, a "Christian" evangelist that tells his people to drink poisoned Koolaid? Are they following God? Or... are they "nut jobs"? Sometimes, some people are nut jobs and just using religion. Somebody better call them out.

But, then again, I heard a religious person say of people in other religions that they were following superstitious traditions and not God. Is that okay to say that? Or, is it better to just let them go on believing what they believe even though it is not the truth?

 

[CG Didymus]

So let's assume for a moment that both the Torah and Quran are literally true. How do you account for the contradictions.

Here's a list of the verified oldest men and women.

List of the verified oldest people - Wikipedia

Don't you think its a little strange that people could have lived more than 8 X longer than the oldest people today. I doubt if we would get that amount of change from a diet and I am a medical doctor which adds to my scepticism of your theory.

Not that I believe it, but those YEC say that there was more oxygen in the air. And that there was a bunch of water in the "heavens" that protected people from the harmful rays. Then, that bubble burst. The Earth opened up and water came gushing out and nothing has been the same since. Or, something like that. Oh, and they say that it never rained until the flood. I wonder if Muslims believe as literally as the YEC'ers?

 

[CG Didymus]

Make sure it's Hindu. lol. I heard a story once where some guy tried to leave his own money to himself. It doesn't work that way. But these days it's harder. In the old days of large extended families there was more intent involve. You could practically make arrangements with grandchildren to provide you a new body. My paternal grandfather is now my nephew, for example.

I don't know about my family's karma? Is there like a "Wheel of Fortune" thing I can spin and take my chances?

 

[CG Didymus]

Metaphorically, the answer to everything.

I'm up to page 5. The last page will probably be nothing my posts. That'll be like going back in time.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know about my family's karma? Is there like a "Wheel of Fortune" thing I can spin and take my chances?

Yup, that's how the vast majority of people it of course. It's called potluck off the astral.

 

[CG Didymus]

Science and reason.

Regards Tony

Yeah, yeah... What science did people have thousands of years ago? If I told you Jesus walked on water and healed a leper, you're telling me you'd have the scientific wherewithal to know that it's impossible? It would be like if you told me 750 rifles shot at two men tied up and not moving and missed... how is that possible?