Islam belief, Noah, the Great Flood and Science. Coherent or contradictory?

[TransmutingSoul]

Where does a person stop making things "symbolic" and "allegorical"? Creation? Allegory. The Flood? Allegory. Satan? Allegory. Jesus rising from the dead? Allegory. God???

Science and reason.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

This thread is about Islamic beliefs regarding Noah and the flood, not Baha'i beliefs.

Oh really?!! Funny you say this while you would bring up Islam every time I discuss Baha'ism.

Baha'u'llah is simply elaborating on a well known narrative, as Muhammad, Jesus and Moses did before Him.

Point 7 of Baha'i logic.

Baha'is clearly see it as allegorical. I have the impression Muslims take it literally.

Point 8 of Baha'i logic.

The Baha'i writings as a whole are clear, consistent and non-contradictory if we look at all the relevant writings in context. The problem is when one or two writings are taken out of context with an intent to distort and misrepresent.

Points 4,5, and 6 of Baha'i logic.

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
7- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
8- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
9- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
10- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
11- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
12- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh really?!! Funny you say this while you would bring up Islam every time I discuss Baha'ism.



Point 7 of Baha'i logic.



Point 8 of Baha'i logic.



Points 4,5, and 6 of Baha'i logic.

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
7- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
8- If it doesn't refer to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic.
9- If it's not a metaphor, allegory, or symbolic you have an axe to grind.
10- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
11- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
12- If you are seeing the light then your beliefs are no better than ours.

Literally speaking, I do see that Islamic Logic was to shoot the Messenger.

When that failed, it was persecute and banish the Messenger, hope that it would all go away.

Here we are today and now it is continue to ridicule the Messenger, still failing, will not work.

All I can offer is, Peace be with you and all Muslims and all Humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Like the prophets of the Baha'i Faith corrected the "false" beliefs of Christians that Jesus was God, that he physically rose from the dead and that Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed by Abraham... Why didn't the angel tell the truth about the Flood to Muhammad? That way, he could correct the false belief about the Flood being a true and literal event? But instead, Muhammad supports the belief and lets people continue to think the Flood was a real, historical event?

Actually it was Muhammad who corrected the Divinity of Christ.

Muhammad doesn’t refer specifically to the resurrection of Christ.

As understood by most Muslims based on the Quran, it was Ishmael that gets sacrificed. So some things get corrected and others are left for a later stage. There is God’s Wisdom throughout it all.

Muhammad, like Jesus and Moses before Him, spoke of many stories that were clearly not literal.

In the Quran Muhammad says God plots and man plots, but verily the best of all plotters is God.

Please explain why you think this is a "classic" strawman? If the Flood is literally true, than God wanted to rid the world of evil people. He failed. If the story is myth, and known to be myth by the people, why would they fear a mythological God that destroyed a mythological people for being evil by sending a mythological flood? But, if they thought the story true, they would be afraid of an all-powerful invisible God that hates evil and can and will destroy people that do evil.

.

It’s a classic straw man as you present it either as totally true or total fabrication. In other words a false dichotomy. The truth lies between these extremes. The power of the myth lies in its plausibility regardless of whether or not it happened.

Then the question about science disproving the Flood. Doesn't the "Word" of God lose credibility as being trustworthy and true if the events written in his Word didn't really happen?

If you believe God was telling us about literal history, of course. But God is not a liar. God reveals Himself in accordance with our capacity, not His. Clearly our capacity changed once Galileo brought into question the Christian cosmology of his day.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Baha'is avoid labelling those who have different beliefs to us as 'nut jobs'. It reflects an intolerant and bigoted attitude but go ahead.

Baha'u'llah openly refer to those that deny him using: ignorant, foolish, abject, absurd etc. A quick search in the Baha'u'llah's book of Iqan brought this up: (Shoghi has translated those quotes and has watered down the original terms that Baha'u'llah used)

"the foolish of this age"
"is this a mightier act than that which these abject and foolish men have imagined"
"they therefore have foolishly interpreted these verses according to their idle and faulty conception"
"whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones!"
"Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied"
"Consider how abundant are the denunciations written by the foolish divines of this age against this most wondrous Cause"
"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert"
"Were the idle contention of these foolish and despicable souls to be true"
"and the like, upon which the eyes and hearts of these vain and foolish souls are set"
"all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities"
"How can they allow men’s absurd and foolish sayings to sow the seeds of distrust in their minds"
"God forbid, they cling to such foolish thoughts and deprive themselves of the divine Beauty"​

And let's not forget the suppressed scripture of the Baha'is:

"The general criterion is what we mentioned and any soul who has success in it, meaning recognizes and realizes the Sunrise of Manifestation (meaning himself), will be mentioned in the Divine Book as someone who possesses reason or else he will be (mentioned as) ignorant even if he himself thinks that his reason equals that of the whole world." (Abd a l-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Mā’idiy-i āsimānī, vol. 7, p. 160)

"No one has denied or will deny what has been revealed by the Ancient Pen (meaning himself) in this Most Great Manifestation regarding society, unity, manners, rites, and being occupied with what has benefits for the people, except that he completely lacks reason." (Bahā’u’llāh, Iqtidārāt wa chand lauḥ dīgar, p. 168)

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Bahā’u’llāh, Iqtidārāt wa chand lauḥ dīgar, p. 111)

"From now on nobody is to be called knowledgeable, except those who have decorated themselves with the garment of this New Affair (meaning those who have become Baha’is)." (Bahā’u’llāh, Badī`, pp. 138–139.)

Baha'u'llah also refers to his deniers using all sorts of profanities.

You can present a version of Baha'ism to the world that is incorrect but it doesn't change the reality of Baha'ism when one reads the suppressed and untranslated works.​

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh really?!! Funny you say this while you would bring up Islam every time I discuss Baha'ism.

Ok. So you are unable to sensibly discuss Islamic beliefs. Fortunately I believe in the Quran and Muhammad so let’s consider His Holy words in regards those who would dispute vainly and idly:

Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro). (Surah Al-Baqara, 15)

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed). (Surah Al-Ma’ida, 57)

Mocked were (many) apostles before thee; but their scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked. (Surah Al-An‘am, 10)

When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme.If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong. (Surah Al-An‘am, 68)

May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah openly refer to those that deny him using: ignorant, foolish, abject, absurd etc. A quick search in the Baha'u'llah's book of Iqan brought this up: (Shoghi has translated those quotes and has watered down the original terms that Baha'u'llah used)

"the foolish of this age"
"is this a mightier act than that which these abject and foolish men have imagined"
"they therefore have foolishly interpreted these verses according to their idle and faulty conception"
"whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones!"
"Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied"
"Consider how abundant are the denunciations written by the foolish divines of this age against this most wondrous Cause"
"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert"
"Were the idle contention of these foolish and despicable souls to be true"
"and the like, upon which the eyes and hearts of these vain and foolish souls are set"
"all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities"
"How can they allow men’s absurd and foolish sayings to sow the seeds of distrust in their minds"
"God forbid, they cling to such foolish thoughts and deprive themselves of the divine Beauty"​

And let's not forget the suppressed scripture of the Baha'is:

"The general criterion is what we mentioned and any soul who has success in it, meaning recognizes and realizes the Sunrise of Manifestation (meaning himself), will be mentioned in the Divine Book as someone who possesses reason or else he will be (mentioned as) ignorant even if he himself thinks that his reason equals that of the whole world." (Abd a l-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Mā’idiy-i āsimānī, vol. 7, p. 160)

"No one has denied or will deny what has been revealed by the Ancient Pen (meaning himself) in this Most Great Manifestation regarding society, unity, manners, rites, and being occupied with what has benefits for the people, except that he completely lacks reason." (Bahā’u’llāh, Iqtidārāt wa chand lauḥ dīgar, p. 168)

"If today, someone grasps all of the knowledge on earth but stops at the word ‘yes’ (meaning does not become a Baha’i), the Lord will not pay attention to him (ladī l-Ḥaqq madhkūr na) and he will be considered as the most ignorant amongst the people." (Bahā’u’llāh, Iqtidārāt wa chand lauḥ dīgar, p. 111)

"From now on nobody is to be called knowledgeable, except those who have decorated themselves with the garment of this New Affair (meaning those who have become Baha’is)." (Bahā’u’llāh, Badī`, pp. 138–139.)

Baha'u'llah also refers to his deniers using all sorts of profanities.

You can present a version of Baha'ism to the world that is incorrect but it doesn't change the reality of Baha'ism when one reads the suppressed and untranslated works.​

Most of these were to Muslim Divines, those that claim thay teach Gods ways, but are the first to reject the Messengers.

History has shown this has always been the way, when a new message has been proclaimed.

Thus very applicable, I would suggest.

I have found, that if the hat fits, own up to it and move forward.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Baha'u'llah openly refer to those that deny him using: ignorant, foolish, abject, absurd etc. A quick search in the Baha'u'llah's book of Iqan brought this up: (Shoghi has translated those quotes and has watered down the original terms that Baha'u'llah used)

"the foolish of this age"
"is this a mightier act than that which these abject and foolish men have imagined"
"they therefore have foolishly interpreted these verses according to their idle and faulty conception"
"whilst these foolish divines wait expecting to witness the signs foretold. Say, O ye foolish ones!"
"Verily by “perverting” the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied"
"Consider how abundant are the denunciations written by the foolish divines of this age against this most wondrous Cause"
"We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert"
"Were the idle contention of these foolish and despicable souls to be true"
"and the like, upon which the eyes and hearts of these vain and foolish souls are set"
"all these people have occupied themselves with such foolish absurdities"
"How can they allow men’s absurd and foolish sayings to sow the seeds of distrust in their minds"
"God forbid, they cling to such foolish thoughts and deprive themselves of the divine Beauty"

Baha'u'llah had strong words of condemnation for fanatical and misguided Muslim clergy of His day. Still His language was mild as milk compared to Muhammad's condemnation of His opponents.

"And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers, (Quran 2:191).

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful," (Quran 9:5).

"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination," (Quran 9:73).

" . . . the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist . . .Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering. (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah, (Quran 33:60-62).

 

[gnostic]

A point about the long ages before the flood. I think some people may think thats just in the bible. But theres many extra biblical sources corroborating this. The sumarian king list is one such example.

That is here original source >

The Sumerian king list: translation

Except, the details in Sumerian isn’t complete, because texts on the flood are largely fragments, and only bits can be glimpse, but...

...BUT, if the Akkadian/Old Babylonian versions to go by, it give us indication it is river flood, not a global flood. It doesn’t say it cover all the mountains.

So the Sumerian version don’t collaborate with Genesis.

Seriously, I have already read all the Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian and Assyrian creation and flood stories, including different recensions of the Sumerian King List.

I know that there are some similarities between the original Mesopotamian myths and Genesis, but there are enough differences to show where the Hebrew version departed from the original story.

If anything, the Genesis version is more distorted and exaggerated than the original version.

 

[shunyadragon]

Then don't chuck the baby out with the bathwater.

That is not the issue, science cannot consider the scriptural claims that are without objective evidence, Ancient scripture is not evidence in and of itself. It is up to those that believe in the scripture to make the decision themselves.

 

[shunyadragon]

What is 'factual history'?
Factual History is a ball which gets batted to left and right according to the players.

Archaeologists are often left with inconclusive evidence and any conclusions that they may decide to support are sometimes based upon the 'balance of probability' and 'balance of possibility'. Of course they make this clear.

Factual history is that history supported by independent archaeological and geologic evidence, This does change over time as more objective evidence is discovered.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Most of these were to Muslim Divines, those that claim thay teach Gods ways, but are the first to reject the Messengers.

RIP:
"oneness of humanity",
"you are the leaves of one tree",
"love everyone even your enemy"
...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

RIP:
"oneness of humanity",
"you are the leaves of one tree",
"love everyone even your enemy"
...

Thank you and both Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha lived by the teachings. As have all but a handful of Baha'is since the Laws were given.

Justice requires a stern Love at times. Thus well directed reprimands are more than appropriate, actually required and just to do so.

Luckily, Holy War was removed from the Book. Baha'u'llah said that was a great bounty from God in this age. The whole of Persia would have been subdued in no time at all by the sword otherwise.

That was demonstarted by Babi history when prior to the law given by Baha'u'llah, they still fought by Muslim Law in defense of Faith. No army could defeat any the Babi defenses, even though it was just everyday people the trained armies were trying to subdue. The Muslims had to break thier oaths given on the Quran to capture them and then slaughter them against the given oaths.

Maybe you could quote what the Quran says about breaking oaths given on the Quran.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

That is not the issue, science cannot consider the scriptural claims that are without objective evidence, Ancient scripture is not evidence in and of itself. It is up to those that believe in the scripture to make the decision themselves.

Science?
Science capable of consideration?

Ancient scripture IS evidence, in and of itself. It might not be enough to bring in a positive decision, but it IS evidence which people can take in to consideration.

And the bible is full of evidence. This argues neither for nor against any conclusions, it simply is evidence.

 

[oldbadger]

Factual history is that history supported by independent archaeological and geologic evidence, This does change over time as more objective evidence is discovered.

The above two sentences contradict each other.
The very idea that FACTUAL HISTORY can be (might be) overturned by new evidence shows that evidence is simply evidence........... whether it is objective or not depends upon who is making that judgement.

 

[Hawkins]

The ancient cultures viewed mythology as reality as they understood their relationship to our physical existence.

Don't sound as if you know what's in the mind of people who passed away thousand years ago. It's not scientific!

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Since you have so many Arab and Persian friends, I invite you to a challenge. Let's call your friends to come over at /r/arab and /r/iranian on the Reddit forum. I'll post the problematic Baha'i quotes and their translations and your friends can challenge the translations. Then we'll allow the neutral members of those sub-Reddits to state their opinion. So are you up to this or not?

 

[james dixon]

Baha'is, like Muslims and Christians believe Noah was a real prophet, but much of the story was allegorical and not to be taken literally. There wasn't a world wide flood and He certainly didn't live to be 950 years of age.

I agree with most of what you said meaning a lot of it is metaphorical with one correction, there was a great flood. In fact there have been several "great" floods

 

[Unguru]

RIP:
"oneness of humanity",
"you are the leaves of one tree",
"love everyone even your enemy"
...

"Oneness of humanity when it suits us....with exception to Muslims, we abrogated them"

I don't buy it either.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since you have so many Arab and Persian friends, I invite you to a challenge. Let's call your friends to come over at /r/arab and /r/iranian on the Reddit forum. I'll post the problematic Baha'i quotes and their translations and your friends can challenge the translations. Then we'll allow the neutral members of those sub-Reddits to state their opinion. So are you up to this or not?

Do you have links to these forums?