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Islam debate

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
When talking about science then we are talking about reality,things that we can observe,test and measure in other words about facts.
Yes. We gather evidence. Everything in science is evidence based. There are some theoretical things but evolution is not one of them.
So saying that evolutionists had blown out of the water by science the creationists is really funny and is ultimate ignorance.
The funny thing is that you think there is examples of irreducible complexity.

No scientific way in our body systems, are you kidding or just an ultimate ignorance !

Now the way your eyes work by receiving the picture which converted to an electrical signal isn't science to you but is arbitrary happening due to random mutations over billions of years.
Actually it is. And you simply "stating" it as impossible doesn't demonstrate that it is impossible. All of the evidence points the other way.

Evolution of the eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What is your evidence that nature can produce a human being without the need for a prior plan.

To have a human being,a man should exist and should be in an adult age to produce sperms and a woman is needed that should also be in an adult age,both should have sexual relationship which isn't planned by the unconscious nature and nor by the human being.

Could you explain how the male is affected by the scene of a woman,in other words why the electric signal of a pretty sexy woman have to attract the male and then have an erection to be ready for the intercourse,was that due to random mutations.[/quote]
If you actually want a lesson in evolution then I would be more than willing to accomidate however I don't think that is what you are getting at. There is an extensive quantity of links to reputable sites with in depth information on evolution. Human evolution especially is touched on in several of the sites.

So I would re-direct you to those sites for the education in the matter. Do you reject the science? Can you give a specific example of what scientific point you reject and on what basis followed by the evidence found that supports you?


Scientific achievements by accident and not by observation,knowledge and thinking.:facepalm:
Who knows,maybe one day we can see monkeys going to schools.
I was merely stating that much of what we see as "planned" did come by accident. I wasn't really equating that to how evolution works.


So if the universe has no creator,then how the universe came to existence from nothingness at first place.
We don't know. And not knowing is ok. We don't have to have an explanation and personally I doubt that the answer could be anywhere near as simple as god.

You and me,for the smarts only to understand.
What about you or I has an innate need for a "creator"? I mean we both can actually find out SPECIFICALLY down to the atomic level how we came to be.
 

Yuusif12

Member
God devotes an entire chapter of the Quran, the holy book of Islam, to women. In addition, God directly addresses women repeatedly throughout the Quran. Islam proclaims that all human beings, men and women, are born in a pure state. The goal of every Muslim is to preserve this purity by shunning evil tendencies and beautifying their inner being with virtuous traits.

Women have tremendous burden and responsibility that is placed upon them.
And the difficulties that they have to shoulder, in terms of responsibilities, some of which men can't bear. This is why from the most important obligations upon a person is to show gratitude to the mother, and kindness and good companionship with her. And in this matter, Allah has given her precedence over and above the father. Allaah the Most High, says:

“And We have enjoined upon man to be dutiful and good to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness upon weakness and hardship upon hardship, and his weaning is in two years. Show gratitude and thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.” [Al-Qur'aan 31:14]

While Islam clearly establishes that men and women are equal, it does recognize that they are not identical. God created men and women with unique physiological and psychological attributes. In Islam, these differences are embraced as vital components to a healthy family and community structure with each individual contributing their own distinctive talents to society.

Hence, God’s rules apply to both genders, but in diverse ways. For example, God commanded women to cover certain parts of their body, including their hair, to preserve their modesty. Men are also required to cover parts of their body out of modesty, but not in the same way as women. Therefore, God commanded both men and women to be modest; yet, the manner in which they observe it is different.

Similarly, the rights, roles, and responsibilities of women are evenly balanced with those of men but are not necessarily the same. As Islam has granted individual identities to men and women, a constant comparison between the two is futile. Each plays a unique role to mutually uphold social morality and societal balance.
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
God devotes an entire chapter of the Quran, the holy book of Islam, to women. In addition, God directly addresses women repeatedly throughout the Quran. Islam proclaims that all human beings, men and women, are born in a pure state. The goal of every Muslim is to preserve this purity by shunning evil tendencies and beautifying their inner being with virtuous traits.

Women have tremendous burden and responsibility that is placed upon them.
And the difficulties that they have to shoulder, in terms of responsibilities, some of which men can't bear. This is why from the most important obligations upon a person is to show gratitude to the mother, and kindness and good companionship with her. And in this matter, Allah has given her precedence over and above the father. Allaah the Most High, says:

“And We have enjoined upon man to be dutiful and good to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness upon weakness and hardship upon hardship, and his weaning is in two years. Show gratitude and thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.” [Al-Qur'aan 31:14]

While Islam clearly establishes that men and women are equal, it does recognize that they are not identical. God created men and women with unique physiological and psychological attributes. In Islam, these differences are embraced as vital components to a healthy family and community structure with each individual contributing their own distinctive talents to society.

Hence, God’s rules apply to both genders, but in diverse ways. For example, God commanded women to cover certain parts of their body, including their hair, to preserve their modesty. Men are also required to cover parts of their body out of modesty, but not in the same way as women. Therefore, God commanded both men and women to be modest; yet, the manner in which they observe it is different.

Similarly, the rights, roles, and responsibilities of women are evenly balanced with those of men but are not necessarily the same. As Islam has granted individual identities to men and women, a constant comparison between the two is futile. Each plays a unique role to mutually uphold social morality and societal balance.

Oh, yeah, sure. This all sounds so nice. (But not really, on closer inspection. Separate but equal has never produced equality.) So why are women treated as mere livestock in muslim societies? Why are they bartered for financial and political advantage? Why is honour killing tolerated? How about genital mutilation?

In a word, why does the behaviour of those who live in muslim-majority societies bear so little relation to the lofty claims made for islam?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Oh, yeah, sure. This all sounds so nice. (But not really, on closer inspection. Separate but equal has never produced equality.) So why are women treated as mere livestock in muslim societies? Why are they bartered for financial and political advantage? Why is honour killing tolerated? How about genital mutilation?

In a word, why does the behaviour of those who live in muslim-majority societies bear so little relation to the lofty claims made for islam?

Spiritual equality is what many really mean, but even that doesn't make sense when Muhammad said more than once that women would be the main population of the Fire :sarcastic

In every day matters women are not deemed as smart, strong, pious, etc. outside "progressive" circles or when talking with non-Muslims.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Oh, yeah, sure. This all sounds so nice. (But not really, on closer inspection. Separate but equal has never produced equality.) So why are women treated as mere livestock in muslim societies? Why are they bartered for financial and political advantage? Why is honour killing tolerated? How about genital mutilation?

In a word, why does the behaviour of those who live in muslim-majority societies bear so little relation to the lofty claims made for islam?

Islam never oppress women but giving her the highest rank,but you can believe a lie if it makes you to feel comfortable.

[youtube]eRs7Us-a6CU[/youtube]
Does Islam Oppress Women? - Abdur Raheem Green - YouTube
 

arcanum

Active Member
God devotes an entire chapter of the Quran, the holy book of Islam, to women. In addition, God directly addresses women repeatedly throughout the Quran. Islam proclaims that all human beings, men and women, are born in a pure state. The goal of every Muslim is to preserve this purity by shunning evil tendencies and beautifying their inner being with virtuous traits.

Women have tremendous burden and responsibility that is placed upon them.
And the difficulties that they have to shoulder, in terms of responsibilities, some of which men can't bear. This is why from the most important obligations upon a person is to show gratitude to the mother, and kindness and good companionship with her. And in this matter, Allah has given her precedence over and above the father. Allaah the Most High, says:

“And We have enjoined upon man to be dutiful and good to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness upon weakness and hardship upon hardship, and his weaning is in two years. Show gratitude and thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.” [Al-Qur'aan 31:14]

While Islam clearly establishes that men and women are equal, it does recognize that they are not identical. God created men and women with unique physiological and psychological attributes. In Islam, these differences are embraced as vital components to a healthy family and community structure with each individual contributing their own distinctive talents to society.

Hence, God’s rules apply to both genders, but in diverse ways. For example, God commanded women to cover certain parts of their body, including their hair, to preserve their modesty. Men are also required to cover parts of their body out of modesty, but not in the same way as women. Therefore, God commanded both men and women to be modest; yet, the manner in which they observe it is different.

Similarly, the rights, roles, and responsibilities of women are evenly balanced with those of men but are not necessarily the same. As Islam has granted individual identities to men and women, a constant comparison between the two is futile. Each plays a unique role to mutually uphold social morality and societal balance.
Well it sounds ideal by the way you describe it, but perhaps what Islam considers the treatment of women "fair and balanced" may differ greatly to what most members of modern western society considers fair and balanced. Islam by it's very nature is very patriarchal but perhaps one could say different cultures within Islam have very different viewpoints and treatment. Turkey has a different culture than Saudi Arabia for instance where women are clothed head to toe and are not allowed to drive. Most in the west would consider that far from a fair and balanced treatment of women.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Islam never oppress women but giving her the highest rank,but you can believe a lie if it makes you to feel comfortable.

What would you say to this bit from from a Muslim website for other Muslims?

---

"With regard to the witness of two women being equal to the testimony of one man. Allaah has mentioned the wisdom behind specifying the number of two as being that a woman may forget or get confused, so the other woman can remind her, as He said:*

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…”

[al-Baqarah 2:282 – interpretation of the meaning]*

With regard to the phrase, “that if one of them (two women) errs”, Ibn Katheer said: “This means, the two women, if one of them forgets the testimony, then ‘the other can remind her’, i.e., she can remind her about the matter concerning which testimony is being given.” (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, part 1, p. 724)*

Allaah has commanded the testimony of two women so as to be sure that they remember, because the mind and memory of two women takes the place of the mind and memory of one man. (See I’laam al-Muwaqqa’een, part 1, p. 75).*

This does not mean that a woman does not understand or that she cannot remember things, but she is weaker than man in these aspects – usually. Scientific and specialized studies have shown that men’s minds are more perfect than those of women, and reality and experience bear witness to that. The books of knowledge are the best witness to that; the knowledge which has been transmitted by men and the ahaadeeth which have been memorized by men far outnumber those which have come via women......." - IslamQA.info

Would you argue this is uncommon attitude, thoughts, beliefs amongst Muslims?
 
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Yuusif12

Member
Oh, yeah, sure. This all sounds so nice. (But not really, on closer inspection. Separate but equal has never produced equality.)
So why are women treated as mere livestock in muslim societies? Why are they bartered for financial and political advantage?
Muslim Women are never treated as livestock and are not bartered.
When has this ever happened? It could just be a man who happens to be Muslim. But it is not from Islam

Why is honour killing tolerated? How about genital mutilation?
Neither of them are tolerated are they are not from Islam.

In a word, why does the behaviour of those who live in muslim-majority societies bear so little relation to the lofty claims made for islam?
One might argue about whether islam oppresses women, but muslims very clearly do.
Well there are bad people in every society, and most people in the west mostly portray Islam in a bad image.



In every day matters women are not deemed as smart, strong, pious, etc. outside "progressive" circles or when talking with non-Muslims.
That is not true. Women are as smart and pious as men if not more so.

Would you argue this is uncommon attitude, thoughts, beliefs amongst Muslims?
Muslims differ in this
 
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Looncall

Well-Known Member
Muslim Women are never treated as livestock and are not bartered.
When has this ever happened? It could just be a man who happens to be Muslim. But it is not from Islam


Neither of them are tolerated are they are not from Islam.



Well there are bad people in every society, and most people in the west mostly portray Islam in a bad image.




That is not true. Women are as smart and pious as men if not more so.


Muslims differ in this

I don't buy this "bad apples" cop-out. Especially when, for example, I see Afghanistan changing its laws to allow spousal abuse, and I find that the Palestinians have laws that give light sentences to those who kill their wives. These are muslim societies. Why has the influence of islam not suppressed these barbarities?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Muslim Women are never treated as livestock and are not bartered.
When has this ever happened? It could just be a man who happens to be Muslim. But it is not from Islam


Neither of them are tolerated are they are not from Islam.



Well there are bad people in every society, and most people in the west mostly portray Islam in a bad image.




That is not true. Women are as smart and pious as men if not more so.


Muslims differ in this

"I have not seen any one of deficient intellect and deen who is more destructive to the intelligence of a cautious man than you women."

The women asked: "Why is that, O messenger of Allah?" He replied: "Do you not spend a few nights without performing salh and without keeping fast? This is the deficiency of her deen and the testimony of one of you equals half the testimony of a single man - this is the deficiency of her intellect. "... so that if one of the two women errs, the second
would remind her." (Al Baqarah, verse 281)

Intelligence and piety mentioned together :D

Edit: a different take...

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301 it states: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (Mosque to offer the prayer) of 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)."
They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?"
He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you."
The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?"
He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?"
They replied in the affirmative.
He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?"
The women replied in the affirmative.
He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

It is considered authentic hadith for the vast majority of Muslims correct?

“The Messenger of Allah once said to a group of women: O Women, give charity. I see the majority of those in hellfire to be women."
 
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Yuusif12

Member
The prophet said that women have two main weaknesses which are that they curse frequently and are ungrateful to their husbands. Just as men have weaknesses and that because of them their are more women who will be punished in the hellfire. (There are more women than men in the world anyway)

He then said that they have a lot of influence over men, even ones that are sensible

When the prophet said that women were deficient in religion and intellect he did not mean it in a bad way. Because women don't have to pray or fast during menstruation.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah's vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities. Another example is her testimony in debt registration sessions or transactions which is a field not frequently tackled by women, which requires great accuracy and understanding of financial matters, in this case her testimony is half that of a man


Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men. They both have their roles
 
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Looncall

Well-Known Member
The prophet said that women have two main weaknesses which are that they curse frequently and are ungrateful to their husbands. Just as men have weaknesses and that because of them their are more women who will be punished in the hellfire. (There are more women than men in the world anyway)

He then said that they have a lot of influence over men, even ones that are sensible

When the prophet said that women were deficient in religion and intellect he did not mean it in a bad way. Because women don't have to pray or fast during menstruation.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah's vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities. Another example is her testimony in debt registration sessions or transactions which is a field not frequently tackled by women, which requires great accuracy and understanding of financial matters, in this case her testimony is half that of a man


Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men. They both have their roles

This is primitive, patriarchal nonsense and disgusting sexism.

I have worked with women in science, in business and in outdoor, wilderness adventures all my life, and have never found them deficient in any way.

If you find muslim women to be deficient, it must be because muslim men have made them so and/or because muslim men have been trained to see them so.

Your tripe about emotions is laughable when one sees videos of mobs of muslim men howling in the street over mere cartoons.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
My belief is Sunni. The prophet said that this religion will split into 73 sects, all of them in the hellfire except one. So his companions asked him: which is that one? He said what me and my companions are on. And that is what Sunni islam is.
When I said anything not in the Quran is not from the religion I made a mistake. It is Also the sunnah. And the companions of the prophet, and what the Islamic nation has agreed on.(not a quranist)

Those who are not Muslims will go to hell. But I will still respect them and it is not allowed to cheat them. Or kill them except if the ruler allows it (during war..)

YmirGF, I want you to ask any questions about islam and I'll answer.
Thanks

I believe as a Christian that I am not going to Hell and I don't believe that the Qu'ran says so either. There may be teachings outside the Qu'ran that say that but my guess is that they have an ethnic bias to them.
 

Yuusif12

Member
Most women forget more so Allah makes sure to stop any injustice by making two women testimonies instead of one.


Muffled: I believe it does


And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.3:85

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.3:19
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
So why say it is not true when I mentioned in Islam women are considered not as smart, strong, or pious?

It is true but you simply try to make excuses that paint it in the prettiest color possible. No matter how you dress up a duck, it's still a duck.

The statement itself is of course not true, but in Islam the majority who are not "Qur'an only" accept it and it shows...and it's alluded to in there as well :shrug:




The prophet said that women have two main weaknesses which are that they curse frequently and are ungrateful to their husbands. Just as men have weaknesses and that because of them their are more women who will be punished in the hellfire. (There are more women than men in the world anyway)

He then said that they have a lot of influence over men, even ones that are sensible

When the prophet said that women were deficient in religion and intellect he did not mean it in a bad way. Because women don't have to pray or fast during menstruation.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah's vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities. Another example is her testimony in debt registration sessions or transactions which is a field not frequently tackled by women, which requires great accuracy and understanding of financial matters, in this case her testimony is half that of a man


Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men. They both have their roles
 

arcanum

Active Member
Most women forget more so Allah makes sure to stop any injustice by making two women testimonies instead of one.


Muffled: I believe it does


And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.3:85

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.3:19
Wow, Islam almost outdoes Christianity in terms of it's authoritarian statements about it being the only way, believe or else. The difference is the Christian writings are often a little more subtle, the Quran is much more blunt about it.
 

Yuusif12

Member
So why say it is not true when I mentioned in Islam women are considered not as smart, strong, or pious?

I said they are considered as smart strong and pious.
they just forget more, but this has nothing to do with being 'smart'
and they are much more pious most of the time. But their are some times when they don't have to pray.

This does not mean they aren't as smart or pious.


arcanum said:
Wow, Islam almost outdoes Christianity in terms of it's authoritarian statements about it being the only way, believe or else. The difference is the Christian writings are often a little more subtle, the Quran is much more blunt about it.

That's because it isn't just something we believe in for the sake of it.
We believe it because we think it is the truth.
 
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