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Islam Has Been Hijacked By...

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
IS
Al Qaeda
Boko Haram
Somali Pirates (I forget the name)
...etc.

Why does Islam seem to lend itself so easily to being 'hijacked' by terror groups and pirates and kidnappers? Why don't they use Wicca, or Asatru, or Christianity or...anything else? Why does it always seem to be this religion? I'm banking on it having something to do with Islam.

Meh, there have been plenty of examples of extremely violent groups using various other religious or non-religious platforms upon which their extremism was based.
But if I am understanding the intent of your question right, I'd kind of flip it on it's head. Where the Renaissance helped to introduce more liberal (in the small l sense) ideas into the mainstream, and introduced in particular the concept of separation of church and state later built on, the same did not occur in the Muslim world.

The effect of that liberalisation is to somewhat offset more extreme or literal interpretations of some religious passages. I think the social revolution, rather than simply the passages in the Quran are primary considerations.

Even simple things, like the move to translate Bibles into various languages, and the resistance to do similar with the Quran, impacts on these social movements, I believe.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
IS
Al Qaeda
Boko Haram
Somali Pirates (I forget the name)
...etc.

Why does Islam seem to lend itself so easily to being 'hijacked' by terror groups and pirates and kidnappers? Why don't they use Wicca, or Asatru, or Christianity or...anything else? Why does it always seem to be this religion? I'm banking on it having something to do with Islam.

In the 1890's Europe was terrified of Anarchists throwing bombs. Russia was frightened of Nihilists in the 1870's. In the 1920's and 1950's in the US, they were afraid of the Reds. In the 1940's it was the Nazis. Even Buddhists are violent. Zen Buddhism was arguably as part of the rationale behind Kamikaze pilots in Japan during world war II. Today, it's Islam's turn. No set of ideas is immune to being a justification for violence, because violence is an inherent capacity in people. The ideas don't make the violence; those committing violence finds a way to justify it.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
In the 1890's Europe was terrified of Anarchists throwing bombs. Russia was frightened of Nihilists in the 1870's. In the 1920's and 1950's in the US, they were afraid of the Reds. In the 1940's it was the Nazis. Even Buddhists are violent. Zen Buddhism was arguably as part of the rationale behind Kamikaze pilots in Japan during world war II. Today, it's Islam's turn. No set of ideas is immune to being a justification for violence, because violence is an inherent capacity in people. The ideas don't make the violence; those committing violence finds a way to justify it.

Yes but nobody went around trying to justify these ideas and saying that they were inherently non-violent and allowing hoards of Commie immigrants in. Also, Islam has been flashing its sword since Muhammad established it.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
The Somali pirates? I thought they were more loose bands of desperate thugs and thieves after cash rather than religious radicals with an agenda.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
The Somali pirates? I thought they were more loose bands of desperate thugs and thieves after cash rather than religious radicals with an agenda.
I can't recall their name right now, but I think there was a significant group that had a certain Islamic extremist bent. Was informed about it in my Religious Studies class.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
It's Al-Shabaab, and they pledged allegiance to Al-Qaeda. It also stems from Wahabism.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes but nobody went around trying to justify these ideas and saying that they were inherently non-violent and allowing hoards of Commie immigrants in.


err, well.... :D

In the UK, we accepted some German refugees by the name of Karl Marx and Fredrich Engels, and the former spent an aweful lot of time in the British Library work on a book of somekind, "Kapital" or something, whilst the latter did some work in Manchester as a textile entrepreuner to fund his compatriots failed literay career.

In 1907, London played host to a small obscure group of Russian radicals, including a certain Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky. This is after Trotsky had already fled a prison camp in Siberia and escaped the country. The British government was even so kind as to send out the local constabulatory to stop the street children picking on the poor russians. Apparently, they also toured London on a red bus, commenting on how "bourgeois" and decadant was the architecture of the British Museum, and also went to visit said "Marx" in a London grave yard.

The US accepted many members of the Communist League from the 1840's who were compatriots of this "Marx" fellow, some of whom went on to become minor figures in the US civil war on the Union Side. This has been of interest to Pro-Confederate Libertarians who want to accuse Abraham Lincoln of being a dangerous marxist revolutionary trying to crush states rights.:rolleyes:

They weren't the only ones as when Communism failed in Europe alot of them went to the US to start co-operatives.

Leon Trotsky stayed in the US for a period in 1916 before being interned in a Canadian prisoner of war camp. He also contributed to a New York periodical for his time there. But that was before he successfully overthrew the Russian Government in 1917, but after he unsuccessfully participated in the revolution of 1905. There are also rumours he was involved in a backstage role in a hollywood film (false unforutnately).

There was the Frankfurt School of Critical Theory fleeing Nazi Germany for America. Depending on who you ask, these are the fine people who brought you "Cultural Marxism" to destroy western civilisation with sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Then there's Wilhelm Reich, who was expelled from the German Communist Party for being too extreme, fled the Nazis and arrived in the US as where the FBI engaged in the largest episode of book burning in US history in the 50's because they weren't comfortable with his investigations of a mysterious sexual energy called Orgone. he also conducted psychotherapy sessions with his patients naked to help the Orgone energy express itself. He was locked up in a mental instuition, but it turned out he was actually "sane", just paranoid.

And they let this man practice psychotherapy in their country. o_O

The US even let Oswald back in after defecting to the USSR. Opps!

And then there's Stalin's daughter, who defected between the US and the USSR several times. Here she is, talking a walk on a rural road in Wisconsin. she died in 2011, a British Citizen after living in Bristol until 2009.

st56g.jpg


let me repeat that. Stalin's Daughter died a British Citizen.

ahh! the Freedom!:eek:


Also, Islam has been flashing its sword since Muhammad established it.

Yeah, but the Taliban looked like pretty decent people.

huge.jpg

There a devout people. lets give them money and weapons. What could go wrong? ;)
 

dust1n

Zindīq
IS
Al Qaeda
Boko Haram
Somali Pirates (I forget the name)
...etc.

Why does Islam seem to lend itself so easily to being 'hijacked' by terror groups and pirates and kidnappers? Why don't they use Wicca, or Asatru, or Christianity or...anything else? Why does it always seem to be this religion? I'm banking on it having something to do with Islam.

Because Islam is already the majority religion in the places were those terror groups formed and operate?

Just as an example, The Weather Underground didn't have anything to do with Islam.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'm banking on it having something to do with Islam.

The more you dig, I think it would just sadden you.

This one religion requires severe fanaticism, making the distance between radical and normal, smaller then you could imagine.

It is a large portion that love having government and religion tied together, because it is a huge part of their lives in all aspects.


I don't think the word moderate can be used. Moderate Christians are barely even religious. Moderate muslims are still very religious to the point of still refusing academia and science.

To me, it is my opinion, all I see is high levels of fundamentalism and fanaticism. Similar to YEC and orthodox Judaism. But not parts of the religion all of it.

And these terrorist groups you mentioned, they take islam into the primitive zone.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Because Islam is already the majority religion in the places were those terror groups formed and operate?

Just as an example, The Weather Underground didn't have anything to do with Islam.

But if the religion didn't lend itself so well to this kind of behaviour, they wouldn't be able to use it. Also, it's not just occurring in the middle east. Also, many countries with a large unity of religion don't tend to this this, at least not on this scale.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
But if the religion didn't lend itself so well to this kind of behaviour, they wouldn't be able to use it.


Nonsense, nothing has ever prevented anyone from using any abstraction to kill. The mind is not bound to rational behavior.

Also, it's not just occurring in the middle east. Also, many countries with a large unity of religion don't tend to this this, at least not on this scale.

Those many countries haven't also been involved in several invasions, civil wars, dictators, military regimes in the last century.
 
But if the religion didn't lend itself so well to this kind of behaviour, they wouldn't be able to use it. Also, it's not just occurring in the middle east. Also, many countries with a large unity of religion don't tend to this this, at least not on this scale.

How do you factor in all of the deaths caused by Western nations over the past 2 centuries? Colonialism, WW1, WW2, Naziism, Communism, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Is there something that makes Western people uniquely violent? Western nations can even start aggressive wars in the name of human rights.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Those many countries haven't also been involved in several invasions, civil wars, dictators, military regimes in the last century.

yes but religion Is tied to government there.

not only that many wars are started over sectarian violence/

These people have been fighting since time began, and the religion has not slowed them down.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
How do you factor in all of the deaths caused by Western nations over the past 2 centuries? Colonialism, WW1, WW2, Naziism, Communism, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Is there something that makes Western people uniquely violent? Western nations can even start aggressive wars in the name of human rights.

Yes yes, I understand all of this. But we didn't defend those ideas. We didn't justify them. We acknowledged Nazis, etc. as the bad guys, that what they did was wrong. But now I see people justifying Islamic terror and telling us that Islam is not responsible for these terror groups.


I was really just having a ding at folks who think Islam has nothing to do with any of these groups.
 
Maybe you confuse religious origin with the political?

in islam there is no political separation. maybe you could stay on topic?

When the topic is "Why are some Muslims so violent", you have to have a control sample to see if they actually are.

We know Jihadis use Islam as a justification for violence, but we need to look at how other ideologies are used to be able to say something meaningful.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
you have to have a control sample to see if they actually are.

Its a fact. we are talking about this fact. NOT debating if the fact is fact or not.

but we need to look at how other ideologies are used to be able to say something meaningful.

Start your own OP then, and please don't derail this one because you don't like it.

other ideologies are not currently committing genocide on a large scale like islam is now. So out of desperation you want to bring up the past when other countries made mistakes WE corrected them on.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Islam has been flashing its sword since Muhammad established it.

You have to remember. This religion was created to match the people in that geographic region. So creating a religion in a violent culture is going to have carry over aspects that are passed on through the religion.

So that accounts for the 10% of violent based text. Part of the issue we face today is trying to help those who see different context in the text that is open and vague for interpretation.

People will and do determine its usage based on different faiths definitions of specific text.
 
I was really just having a ding at folks who think Islam has nothing to do with any of these groups.

Well it does have something to do with Islam, but there's the intolerance of certain brands of Islam, and there is jihadi terrorism which are really separate issues, although are often conflated.

The Jihadis are often considered to be almost synonymous with Wahabbis, but probably rely more on Qutb who was not a Wahabbi. You also have the Wahabbi establishment who are almost unanimously anti-IS (as are even most of the Jihadi 'scholars').

And you get Salafis who consider the Jihadis to be innovators because of their incorporation of Leninist concept into their ideology. And IS scholars who claim that IS don't have to follow Islamic Law because the situation is so desperate.

I think the violent millenarianist strain of Islam should be treated separately from the generally intolerant strains as it has more in common with other utopian/millenarian violent ideologies than it does with more mainstream but intolerant forms of Islam.
 
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