Islam, how much do you really know about it?

[challupa]

it is OK, normal if you did not know. but, you know, i don't understand something. if it is about women being abused, then why Theo also did not mind to abuse that woman standing nude? isn't it abusive to use nudity of women? you know, women are divine creatures. unfortunately they are either treated like slaves or sex objects. both is sick imo. if we could mix West and East then maybe something balanced could come up.

.

You have hit the nail on the head. That is sometimes the paradox of trying to bring attention to things you want to change. When we try to bring attention to what we feel is abusive and needs changing, we so often have to essentially "continue" the abuse to get a point across. It's not always needed and there are other ways, but usually the "shock factor" speaks loudly and sometimes is successful in bringing change in a way that other less "shock" provoking ways don't. However, I believe the shock technique is becoming less effective because people are seeing so much injustice and violence in the media that they are becoming desensitized in a self protection way. It can all become too overwhelming and people just shut down.

Maybe some day we will see women treated with dignity and respect, but I would also like to see the day when all humans are treated with dignity and respect. Men can be just as abusive of men in different situations. The one with the power is usually the oppressor.

 

[England my lionheart]

You have hit the nail on the head. That is sometimes the paradox of trying to bring attention to things you want to change. When we try to bring attention to what we feel is abusive and needs changing, we so often have to essentially "continue" the abuse to get a point across. It's not always needed and there are other ways, but usually the "shock factor" speaks loudly and sometimes is successful in bringing change in a way that other less "shock" provoking ways don't. However, I believe the shock technique is becoming less effective because people are seeing so much injustice and violence in the media that they are becoming desensitized in a self protection way. It can all become too overwhelming and people just shut down.

Maybe some day we will see women treated with dignity and respect, but I would also like to see the day when all humans are treated with dignity and respect. Men can be just as abusive of men in different situations. The one with the power is usually the oppressor.

I agree,especially with the last part,getting back to the film,to me it was about the arranged Marriage she had to have although she actually loved someone else and the abuse she suffered from her Husband and his Brother,violence and rape.
Obviously arranged Marriages are part of other religions and cultures so it isn't the main point of the film,the main point of the film is although she vigorously followed the Quran and did all her duties as a wife she felt she had been badly betrayed by her religion.
We also have to bear in mind this is a true story and there are many like her and she had to leave all the people she knew and loved to turn her back on her religion and can never go back.
In the film there is some partial nudity and i think Theo Van Gogh was making an Arty statement that the truth is laid bare,Theo Van Gogh was related to Vincent Van Gogh so that explains the Arty bit,all i know of him is this film.

 

[.lava]

I agree,especially with the last part,getting back to the film,to me it was about the arranged Marriage she had to have although she actually loved someone else and the abuse she suffered from her Husband and his Brother,violence and rape.

it is more than cruel to force people to marry. that is a tradition people insist to hold on. in my country it still exist in the East among Kurdish tribes. girls are traded with money. so she can not marry who she wants. she has to marry who gives the big money. if she runs away, she gets killed by his youngest brother or youngest male in her family. thank God there are organizations who help runaways. but i don't know about other Muslim nations. seems like women don't have rights as human beings.

Obviously arranged Marriages are part of other religions and cultures so it isn't the main point of the film,the main point of the film is although she vigorously followed the Quran and did all her duties as a wife she felt she had been badly betrayed by her religion.

there are very happy couples who had arranged marriage, England my Lionheart. but the point is they were volunteer to have arrange marriage. when this happens girl and boy would be shown to each other and if both agrees to marry, they get married. i don't think this is wrong. there is problem when people were forced.

she did all her duties? well...is performing salaat before God with transparent dress one of her duties? she followed Qur'an and stood naked before God? ah please! you know we wear modesty mostly. even women who does not wear hijab in their daily lives, they cover themselves when they perform salaat.

religion is not human. religion is a recipe. if your recipe says you should use one glass of water, what would you do? use no water? use 5 glasses of water? result of both would be terrible because you did not do what recipe says. how could you hold recipe responsible for this? how could you hold religion responsible for hatred and ignorance of men? do you really think they would be better people if religion did not exist? or those guys simply following themselves against what recipe says?

We also have to bear in mind this is a true story and there are many like her

should i play the naugthy one and ask you if there are Muslim women who perform salaat naked and her nudity was part of that true story?

and she had to leave all the people she knew and loved to turn her back on her religion and can never go back.

i would leave if i must but i would never abandone my religion because of evil-doers and cruels among us. if she loved her creator she would not abandone Islam.

In the film there is some partial nudity and i think Theo Van Gogh was making an Arty statement that the truth is laid bare,Theo Van Gogh was related to Vincent Van Gogh so that explains the Arty bit,all i know of him is this film.

what truth? that is not art. that is his fantasy world and exposing of female body.

let me ask;

1-what did his movie serve?
2-did his movie unite people of different beliefs and different cultures?
3-did his movie help suffering women in anyway?
4-how many men did realize they were treating their women wrong and changed their attitude?

.

 

[.lava]

Maybe some day we will see women treated with dignity and respect, but I would also like to see the day when all humans are treated with dignity and respect. Men can be just as abusive of men in different situations. The one with the power is usually the oppressor.

there are women in Western nations who earn it but they have unnecessary difficulties. seems like all women in music business has make same moves, has to have a gesture that turn men on...etc i believe that is an insult to their personalities. people are not just flesh and bones. we have emotions and women certainly do have intellect. so superficial. also very sad because that's how societies define freedom of women. if she's more naked, more she acts hysterical then she is more free. that is slavery of women. just because of this women are perceived less than who they are. at least this is what i see. matter of fact i think women are second class in whole world. not just in some Muslim nations. they are used and abused all over.

yes, in my entire life there's been only one newspaper highlight that impressed me. it says. "give them power to see what they really are". that's true imo.

.

 

[.lava]

Not neccaserily so,there are people who accomplish great things without their religion having anything to do with it,Einstein was'nt religious at all and Nikola Tesla whom most of the world has benefited from and came from a Church background still had not one iota of religious beliefs in his work.

at last you mentioned someone that i admire: Tesla! i really like the guy. i can not say human intellect would be wasted if people were not religious. IQ and intellect would work as tools anyway. but none of those guys created their own IQ.

I have looked at religion through history and it is hard to find anything positive that it has accomplished and IMO religion is Man made and more than that it is corrupted by Men.

you have? there are dozens of inventions of Islamic characters in history. how did you miss them?

yes, men corrupts anything. we corrupt nature but it is not us who created nature. same with religion.

Lets look at Saints,Immams who are regarded as Saints,some people who follow a religion have a "Holier than thou" attitude as if they are specially chosen,how about the Muslims,Jews and Christians during the Crusades,what was accomplished there or the Spanish inquisition,the partition of India,Catholic against Protestant,this is all religion has accomplished.

hmm...England my lionheart, do you know who was the first one in entire history of entire creation that said 'i am holier than you'? here's a clue; we call him Shaytan.

do you think USA would invade Iraq if all Iraqis were Christians? do you think there would be wars if Jews, Christians and Muslims realize that all three books said the same "this is the religion of Abraham(PBUH)"? would people kill each other if they realized they are all creatures of one God and they are following the same path with different rituels? is there any war that does not contain religion factor? is it sincere religious people who keep masses divided or who is it and do you think who make people enemies could be really men of God?

.

 

[abhimanyu]

dear friend, the truth is there are messengers of God in every group of people. there are saints among Muslims, among Christians, among Jews, among Buddhists, among Hindus...ETC. God never favors anyone. but masses in general are on the wrong path because each mass has a certain belief; "Only we deserve heaven, rest of the world would go hell." this is wrong. as i said before, i really do not know your history but you're not the first one who told me about crimes that committed by Muslims in India. i am inclined to believe you. so, if those Gurus who got killed were men of God then those Muslims who killed them were infidels. God knows who is who.

Then how about making sure that these muslims who, harm, kill and persecute others, are not created again, and all such institutions that create them are eradicated permanently.

Ever since the 7th century A.D, we have witnessed such muslims ,who have done tremondous harm to the world, to the present moment, and we see a lot of rhetoric from the islamic community saying that they are not muslims , but no action is being taken against them and their supporters.

Every time an atrocity happens from these idiots, the islamic community starts chanting parrot like that they are not muslims, and there it ends.

We would appreciate it if you guys take more concrete action against these idiots, or otherwise whatever you say would be perceived as mere hypocrisy, and further affronts to the dignity of those who were harmed or were killed.

our religious leaders are very well educated as well but they deny verses of Qur'an. let me tell you why there are many sections in Islam while there is only one book. long time ago some Imams wrote commentaries of Qur'an. some people believed in one imam, others believed in another...here we have sections. Sharia in Qur'an is certain. Qur'an calls those who divides people infidels.

Can I have a verse on that , for everyone here to see. Thanks.

who cares if Mullahs were educated or not, it is not Qur'an they studied. they follow their egos and ego listens to Satan.

Same as above. If these mullahs were going in the wrong way, and were following satan , what have genuine muslims have done all these centuries from the 7th century onwards, to make sure such idiotic and satanic mullahs who have created tremondous bloodshed and suffering in this world, are not created again.

It is for this reason that Guru Gobind Singh had stated that when all peaceful means have been exhausted, it is justified to take up martial means for struggle against tyranny and injustice.

Khalsa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

creating a steretypical image in your mind is equal what those Muslim mishcheif have in their minds. no difference. i do understand if you felt rage when you think over what happened to people you admire. i would feel the same. but you should not perceive billions as potential murderers. that would be unfair and actually be a source of unhappiness for you.

But logically speaking, considering the vast amount of harm done to the world, throughout the centuries since the creation of islam, we have been witnessing bloodshed and suffering due to islamic fanaticism.

I agree there is a section in the islamic community who are peaceful, non-violent ,cultured and respectful of others ( such as inayat khan, Pir Bhikan Shah, Jalal al-din Rumi ) but this is but a microscopic community, who does not have the mettle to take on the satanic islamic fundamentalists , who are ruling the roost now.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

excuse my ignorance but i did not even know the name Sikh until i met someone here on RF. this is why i'd never heard of any incident you mentioned. but i know it for sure there are violent bigots. they hate humanity. i hope they disappear soon, all together.

Through hoping they won't disappear, and for that concrete actions has to be taken by the islamic community against these bigots, or else they will lose whatever low credibility they have left with the global community.

God gives you permission to defend yourselves. noone would blame you for it. i hope you don't repeat what they did to you.

We are not interested in repeating the bs they have done, as that would be tantamount to lowering ourselves to their animalistic standards.

However , it is indeed our responsibility to take proactive action to make sure that no one else is harmed again anywhere by these satanic fundamentalists , as our Gurus themselves have taught us.

well, you forgot to mention Muslims. why do they kill Muslims? could you answer that?

Hence it is all the more important for the proper muslims to take action against the bigots in their own community, as violence and murders is committed against them as well.

Muslims in very large numbers have been killed in shia-sunni-ahmediya riots and in other sectarian and trivial issues, all over the world, throughout history , by their own hands.

All this persistent nauseating bloodshed , in a way, has evaporated whatever ideals of peace, non-violence and tolerance Islam had, and has greatly reduced the value and dignity of human life in islamic society.

i feel your pain and i am sorry that your people were tortured to death just for being.

Well, if you can place yourself in their shoes, then you will be better able to feel their pain and suffering.

thank you

Thank you very much.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

if it is about women being abused, then why Theo also did not mind to abuse that woman standing nude? isn't it abusive to use nudity of women?

Is it ? I wouldn't automatically think so.

I think abuse is something different than simply being nude as a woman.

 

[challupa]

there are women in Western nations who earn it but they have unnecessary difficulties. seems like all women in music business has make same moves, has to have a gesture that turn men on...etc i believe that is an insult to their personalities. people are not just flesh and bones. we have emotions and women certainly do have intellect. so superficial. also very sad because that's how societies define freedom of women. if she's more naked, more she acts hysterical then she is more free. that is slavery of women. just because of this women are perceived less than who they are. at least this is what i see. matter of fact i think women are second class in whole world. not just in some Muslim nations. they are used and abused all over.

yes, in my entire life there's been only one newspaper highlight that impressed me. it says. "give them power to see what they really are". that's true imo.

.

Yes lava I agree with you for the most part. I see it a bit different and I'll try to explain. From my understanding women in Muslim countries need to be covered so that she does not tempt men. I see that practice as the muslim men not taking responsibility for their own actions and blaming a woman for a mans lack of restraint. This doesn't make sense in my mind. Women in the west do dress how ever they want to, yes. They can even go around nude on some of our beaches. The freedom to do this without being attacked or berated is important also. You see, it's about choice. Most women in the west do not walk around half naked all of the time. They don't feel the need to do that, but the fact that they can chose to if they wish to, is the issue. Muslim women do not have that choice or freedom. I think that is why we see more extremes in the western world right now. It has only been a "blink of an eye" in time that women of any religion or society have had this freedom without being labelled a prostitute or whore. Like all freedoms newly won, we will see extremes. The pendulum of a clock when pulled to one side and then freed will swing widely to the opposite side initially. Over time it finds it's way to the center. I believe you will see that in our western world with women also. I understand why you think that they are slaves in a sense when you are talking about movie stars or singers etc. They do seem to go out of their way to appeal to men's sexual urges. They know it will work. In a way I see them selling themselves short, but I also understand it is business and they are using what they feel is their best business weapon to sell their music, their bodies. You don't see very many "mature" women singers doing that to any great degree for obvious reasons, but they do manage to keep fans with their talent alone. This fact will likely free the younger ones to make different choices if they should wish to. There are young female singers that aren't using their bodies to sell their music, not all of them are. So you see, we are still in the stage where the pendulum has swung wide to the opposite side where sex sells. It will moderate in time, but there will likely always be some who choose that route and the whole point is that they are free to do that. Freedom to express ourselves in a wide range of ways is very important to the western society.

As far as religion dictating against nudity, I don't really understand that concept anyway. If god made us he must have liked what he made. I don't see any shame in the nude human body. I don't think god sees it that way either. We have been taught by our religions to suppress our sexual urges to try to control us. It doesn't work and actually makes things worse. We know repressed urges and feelings of guilt and shame do not make for a healthy self esteem. When you have whole societies doing this, we have problems. Sexual energy just gets rerouted into other expressions and sometimes those expressions are violent.

I realize that these last views are not your views and I did not state them to challenge your views, merely to let you know mine. I respect what you believe in these matters.

 

[pharon85]

Which perfectly well with the 70.8 % that i had already quoted. About 71 %. But you claim that your number would be correct. So you must provide an exact number of 71.11


Of course we know that this is an editable source.

I do not see any sense in talking with you about christian's claims that say the bible tells people about the percentage of water and earth. Its just as wrong as the claim the quran would state it.

The difference is only that your view is neither backed up by science nor do you seem to have a good knowledge of the quran as we see here ....
I leave it up to you to find the verses. At least you come to read the quran then for once, so that you know what you talk about.

Scientifically wrong, already said.

Really ?
"wa laqad zay-yan-nas samaa-ad dunyaa bi maSaabiyHa wa ja'Alnaahaa rujuumal lish shayaaTiyn wa a'Atadnaa lahum 'Adhaabas sa'Iyr "

What came first ... the earth and then the heavens or first the heavens and then the earth ?

The big bang doesnt say that this solar system is the starting point where it all began.
Actually it says that the big bang didn't happen in this system.

or something else again or something else ... just as long as we have some interpretation that seems to fit....
We come to that below.

Moutains were not set at all on earth. Mountains rose.

And you think a whale can swallow a man, let him stay in his body for a while and then spit him up in a desert ? Really ? What does science say about this ?

Really ?
"wa laqad arsalnaa nuuHan ilaa qawmihii fa labitha fiyhim alfa sanatin il-laa khamsiyna 'AAmaa fa akhadhahumuT Tuufaanu wa hum Zaalimuun"

Really ? Well ok ... it was a spring
"Hat-taa idhaa balaga magribash shamsi wajadahaa tagrubu fiy 'Aynin Hamiatiw wa wajada 'Indahaa qawmaa"

Unfortunately for you egyptians didnt use that punishment.
It has been reported for romans, carthagans and persians (so far)

Really ?
"wal-laahu khalaqa kul-la daab-batim mim maa'* fa minhum may yamshiy 'Alaa baTnih wa minhum may yamshiy 'Alaa rijlayn wa minhum may yamshiy 'Alaa arba'A yakhluqul-laahu maa yashaa' in-nal-laaha 'Alaa kul-li shay'in qadiyr"

Of course this also is nonsense. First of all ALL objects (except black holes and other suns i would say) reflect the light from the sun, not only moons.
Secondly there is no "positive" and "negative" here. As the sun emanates light a "negative" would be something that totally absorbs light like a black hole.

Apart of that i can povide another simple example : atoms
You have positive protons in the center and electrons in the periphery and then you have neutrons in the center too.... makes three.

Alas i leave you here ...
Come back when you KNOW your deen !

i was going to leave that conversation because i think it will lead us to no thing
but when some one like you say back when you know about religion
that is some thing i cant accept
you write quran in franco arab to prevent non arab from understanding what is really written and to prove that you are right or even write the numbers to let any one check
is it real or no
really that is cheap
here i go and i know you will say he run away
no i proofe every thing i say ,and it is not my problem that you don't accept islam
or you try to play with words
i asked you 10 times about some thing in the bible
first you say all of that was discused before even here in this forum
i asked you for links ,what was the result?
no thing
i asked you to discuess
what was the result?
no thing
then you try to use quran and proof you are right according to it
haha
then you say wikipedia is not trustable and can be edited
do you know i chosed wikipedia in purpose
why?
because i know you will say that even all your answers came from there when you speak about science
so all what you say before mean no thing
i can discuess with any one but not in that way
and don't even think to say he escape because he couldn't answer
i answered and proofed every thing i say before
never lied or cheat to proof i'am right as you did
that is the end


we can't have adiscussion

 

[England my lionheart]

it is more than cruel to force people to marry. that is a tradition people insist to hold on. in my country it still exist in the East among Kurdish tribes. girls are traded with money. so she can not marry who she wants. she has to marry who gives the big money. if she runs away, she gets killed by his youngest brother or youngest male in her family. thank God there are organizations who help runaways. but i don't know about other Muslim nations. seems like women don't have rights as human beings.



there are very happy couples who had arranged marriage, England my Lionheart. but the point is they were volunteer to have arrange marriage. when this happens girl and boy would be shown to each other and if both agrees to marry, they get married. i don't think this is wrong. there is problem when people were forced.

she did all her duties? well...is performing salaat before God with transparent dress one of her duties? she followed Qur'an and stood naked before God? ah please! you know we wear modesty mostly. even women who does not wear hijab in their daily lives, they cover themselves when they perform salaat.

religion is not human. religion is a recipe. if your recipe says you should use one glass of water, what would you do? use no water? use 5 glasses of water? result of both would be terrible because you did not do what recipe says. how could you hold recipe responsible for this? how could you hold religion responsible for hatred and ignorance of men? do you really think they would be better people if religion did not exist? or those guys simply following themselves against what recipe says?



should i play the naugthy one and ask you if there are Muslim women who perform salaat naked and her nudity was part of that true story?





i would leave if i must but i would never abandone my religion because of evil-doers and cruels among us. if she loved her creator she would not abandone Islam.



what truth? that is not art. that is his fantasy world and exposing of female body.

let me ask;

1-what did his movie serve?
2-did his movie unite people of different beliefs and different cultures?
3-did his movie help suffering women in anyway?
4-how many men did realize they were treating their women wrong and changed their attitude?

.

The idea of this film was to highlight the plight of Women in Islam and Apostates,this was an Actress just acting out a part of a real person.
Did it unite people of different beliefs and cultures,of course not,would you Marry a Jew,i think thats a big no no for you,so there you have it,its great religion.
How many Men treated their Women better because of this film,well the problem with that is in the West we are expected to treat Women with respect so the film isn't but going to help us but many Middle Eastern Men are very Chauvinistic and would not even discuss it,especially places like Saudi which i am sure you know.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes lava I agree with you for the most part. I see it a bit different and I'll try to explain. From my understanding women in Muslim countries need to be covered so that she does not tempt men. I see that practice as the muslim men not taking responsibility for their own actions and blaming a woman for a mans lack of restraint. This doesn't make sense in my mind. Women in the west do dress how ever they want to, yes. They can even go around nude on some of our beaches. The freedom to do this without being attacked or berated is important also. You see, it's about choice. Most women in the west do not walk around half naked all of the time. They don't feel the need to do that, but the fact that they can chose to if they wish to, is the issue. Muslim women do not have that choice or freedom. I think that is why we see more extremes in the western world right now. It has only been a "blink of an eye" in time that women of any religion or society have had this freedom without being labelled a prostitute or whore. Like all freedoms newly won, we will see extremes. The pendulum of a clock when pulled to one side and then freed will swing widely to the opposite side initially. Over time it finds it's way to the center. I believe you will see that in our western world with women also. I understand why you think that they are slaves in a sense when you are talking about movie stars or singers etc. They do seem to go out of their way to appeal to men's sexual urges. They know it will work. In a way I see them selling themselves short, but I also understand it is business and they are using what they feel is their best business weapon to sell their music, their bodies. You don't see very many "mature" women singers doing that to any great degree for obvious reasons, but they do manage to keep fans with their talent alone. This fact will likely free the younger ones to make different choices if they should wish to. There are young female singers that aren't using their bodies to sell their music, not all of them are. So you see, we are still in the stage where the pendulum has swung wide to the opposite side where sex sells. It will moderate in time, but there will likely always be some who choose that route and the whole point is that they are free to do that. Freedom to express ourselves in a wide range of ways is very important to the western society.

As far as religion dictating against nudity, I don't really understand that concept anyway. If god made us he must have liked what he made. I don't see any shame in the nude human body. I don't think god sees it that way either. We have been taught by our religions to suppress our sexual urges to try to control us. It doesn't work and actually makes things worse. We know repressed urges and feelings of guilt and shame do not make for a healthy self esteem. When you have whole societies doing this, we have problems. Sexual energy just gets rerouted into other expressions and sometimes those expressions are violent.

I realize that these last views are not your views and I did not state them to challenge your views, merely to let you know mine. I respect what you believe in these matters.

I agree,i have a Daughter and i have made certain that sheknows she is an equal to any Man,she has freedom of choice in everything and it has'nt harmed her in any way and she has given me two fine Grandchildren.
We come into this world naked so i see no problem with nudity,it is simply how you percieve it,when i see naked women on the beach i never think "oh that must mean she wants sex" so there is nothing wrong with nudity.
My wife who i must say is truly beautiful has the same freedom of choice,if a Man looks at her i do not feel insulted,i feel complemented,i trust my wife and she trusts me and the last thing i would want her to do is walk around wearing a tent.

 

[.lava]

The idea of this film was to highlight the plight of Women in Islam and Apostates,this was an Actress just acting out a part of a real person.

IMO;

this movie served nothing but hatred.

Did it unite people of different beliefs and cultures,of course not,would you Marry a Jew,i think thats a big no no for you,so there you have it,its great religion.

of course not, i agree. what's wrong with Jews? marriage has to be decided between two people. if i fell in love with a Jew, i would marry.

How many Men treated their Women better because of this film,well the problem with that is in the West we are expected to treat Women with respect so the film isn't but going to help us but many Middle Eastern Men are very Chauvinistic and would not even discuss it,especially places like Saudi which i am sure you know.

i did not mean Western men. i don't believe that movie was made with good intentions. there are movies where you can find similar stories. yes, movie makers are still alive. but this movie would definitely **** many Muslims off in first 2 minutes. only because of that insult to our women (which means; our mothers, our grandmothers, our sisters, our daughters...see what did those Muslim men remember watching that naked woman?), yes, only because of nudity no one would care for what the message is because message would be taken in first 2 minutes: we don't care for your values. if you don't care for my values, then you can not be able to show me a better way of treating others because you are a huge failure- i don't mean you . art could be used for good. if intentions was good, maybe not thousands but some people would get something useful from it. but Western abused this tool of communication to divide masses even more. this movie made some Muslims hate Western more and at the same time this movie made Western hate Muslims more. you know, i am able to drive people crazy. anybody can do that. anybody can easily add more hatred to hatred. anybody can destroy. no big deal. but when it comes to help peace and to do something positive for humanity, that is the difficult one. that is what i respect in people regardless what they believe in. i hope someday citizens of Western nations realize that 2 billion people would not simply disappear and instead of supporting what they accept as art that insults us and our values, they support artists who works for goodness of all mankind. and that kind of acts can NEVER be done without showing respect to others.

.

 

[England my lionheart]

IMO;

this movie served nothing but hatred.



of course not, i agree. what's wrong with Jews? marriage has to be decided between two people. if i fell in love with a Jew, i would marry.



i did not mean Western men. i don't believe that movie was made with good intentions. there are movies where you can find similar stories. yes, movie makers are still alive. but this movie would definitely **** many Muslims off in first 2 minutes. only because of that insult to our women (which means; our mothers, our grandmothers, our sisters, our daughters...see what did those Muslim men remember watching that naked woman?), yes, only because of nudity no one would care for what the message is because message would be taken in first 2 minutes: we don't care for your values. if you don't care for my values, then you can not be able to show me a better way of treating others because you are a huge failure- i don't mean you . art could be used for good. if intentions was good, maybe not thousands but some people would get something useful from it. but Western abused this tool of communication to divide masses even more. this movie made some Muslims hate Western more and at the same time this movie made Western hate Muslims more. you know, i am able to drive people crazy. anybody can do that. anybody can easily add more hatred to hatred. anybody can destroy. no big deal. but when it comes to help peace and to do something positive for humanity, that is the difficult one. that is what i respect in people regardless what they believe in. i hope someday citizens of Western nations realize that 2 billion people would not simply disappear and instead of supporting what they accept as art that insults us and our values, they support artists who works for goodness of all mankind. and that kind of acts can NEVER be done without showing respect to others.

.

OK the film would be of no benefit to Muslim Men but i still think Women in Islam are treated second class although many Muslim Women who live here are breaking free from their shackles.
The other thing i find wrong is what happens to Muslims who convert to other religions or are Athiests,i have a major problem with this because it is entrapment.
If the film caused you offence via the film you have my apologies.

 

[lamplighter]

we can have a dog as a pet but not inside the house, the angels of Allah will not enter the house if there are photos and dogs in it. there is no punishmet against it but we do not keep dogs for that reason,

I've been told the Saluki is the exception to this rule, is it true? I know they were/are very valued animals in the Middle East, and the oldest known breed of dog dating back to 2100 BC.

 

[.lava]

Then how about making sure that these muslims who, harm, kill and persecute others, are not created again, and all such institutions that create them are eradicated permanently.

Ever since the 7th century A.D, we have witnessed such muslims ,who have done tremondous harm to the world, to the present moment, and we see a lot of rhetoric from the islamic community saying that they are not muslims , but no action is being taken against them and their supporters.

things would change. that's job of Mahdi (PBUH).

Every time an atrocity happens from these idiots, the islamic community starts chanting parrot like that they are not muslims, and there it ends.

what do you expect to hear? that is probably the truth.

We would appreciate it if you guys take more concrete action against these idiots, or otherwise whatever you say would be perceived as mere hypocrisy, and further affronts to the dignity of those who were harmed or were killed.

i do what i can do where i am. i do what i can do on internet as well.

Can I have a verse on that , for everyone here to see. Thanks.

let me send more than that so maybe you reach a better insight

30:31/32 Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists. Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them.

3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.

9:97 The wandering Arabs are more hard in disbelief and hypocrisy, and more likely to be ignorant of the limits which Allah hath revealed unto His messenger. And Allah is Knower, Wise.

49:14 The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts.

Same as above. If these mullahs were going in the wrong way, and were following satan , what have genuine muslims have done all these centuries from the 7th century onwards, to make sure such idiotic and satanic mullahs who have created tremondous bloodshed and suffering in this world, are not created again.

It is for this reason that Guru Gobind Singh had stated that when all peaceful means have been exhausted, it is justified to take up martial means for struggle against tyranny and injustice.

Khalsa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But logically speaking, considering the vast amount of harm done to the world, throughout the centuries since the creation of islam, we have been witnessing bloodshed and suffering due to islamic fanaticism.

dear friend, let me tell you clearly. if you are against Islam you won't find me on your side. if you are against fascism, racism and unjust, then i am with you.

i am witness of my own culture. we are Muslims. in Ottoman time people of all religions lived together in peace. they freely practiced their religion and spoke their own language for centuries.

First wars that happened during time of Mohammad (PBUH) were self-defense. they never attacked anyone. they were attacked and they responded. you have right to defend yourself if you're attacked. i don't see why people expect Muslims to watch their families get killed. of course they would defend and yes, war means bloodshed. but who starts war is responsible of that, not the ones who has to defend.

I agree there is a section in the islamic community who are peaceful, non-violent ,cultured and respectful of others ( such as inayat khan, Pir Bhikan Shah, Jalal al-din Rumi ) but this is but a microscopic community, who does not have the mettle to take on the satanic islamic fundamentalists , who are ruling the roost now.

just like those Muslims who's divided, you don't get it either. there are no sections in Islam. Jalal al-din Rumi was Imam of era in his time. he followed Qur'an from hair to toe. therefor he was peaceful. but there are Arabs who call him satanic at this present day.

Through hoping they won't disappear, and for that concrete actions has to be taken by the islamic community against these bigots, or else they will lose whatever low credibility they have left with the global community.

that Islamic comunity you talk about is weak. all the Muslims nations are meanfully judged. don't you know every day dozens of Muslims die? do you think they are terrorists? if yes, you're wrong. entire world is against Islam and Muslims.

We are not interested in repeating the bs they have done, as that would be tantamount to lowering ourselves to their animalistic standards.

However , it is indeed our responsibility to take proactive action to make sure that no one else is harmed again anywhere by these satanic fundamentalists , as our Gurus themselves have taught us.

Hence it is all the more important for the proper muslims to take action against the bigots in their own community, as violence and murders is committed against them as well.

as i tried to explain above, Muslims are getting killed.

Muslims in very large numbers have been killed in shia-sunni-ahmediya riots and in other sectarian and trivial issues, all over the world, throughout history , by their own hands.

that would be one of the worst sins ever.

All this persistent nauseating bloodshed , in a way, has evaporated whatever ideals of peace, non-violence and tolerance Islam had, and has greatly reduced the value and dignity of human life in islamic society.

Well, if you can place yourself in their shoes, then you will be better able to feel their pain and suffering.

Thank you very much.

i feel your pain. i don't think that my imagination could show me how they felt though.

i thank you too.

.

 

[challupa]

I agree,i have a Daughter and i have made certain that sheknows she is an equal to any Man,she has freedom of choice in everything and it has'nt harmed her in any way and she has given me two fine Grandchildren.
We come into this world naked so i see no problem with nudity,it is simply how you percieve it,when i see naked women on the beach i never think "oh that must mean she wants sex" so there is nothing wrong with nudity.
My wife who i must say is truly beautiful has the same freedom of choice,if a Man looks at her i do not feel insulted,i feel complemented,i trust my wife and she trusts me and the last thing i would want her to do is walk around wearing a tent.

Yes I also have a daughter and I have taught her the same thing. In my opinion, having approximately one half of the world's population in submission to the other half is hazardous. It is important to have the balance that comes from having men and women in positions of equality. We balance each other and the imbalance of a male dominated world is part of our problem.

 

[England my lionheart]

Yes I also have a daughter and I have taught her the same thing. In my opinion, having approximately one half of the world's population in submission to the other half is hazardous. It is important to have the balance that comes from having men and women in positions of equality. We balance each other and the imbalance of a male dominated world is part of our problem.

:clap

 

[.lava]

Yes lava I agree with you for the most part. I see it a bit different and I'll try to explain. From my understanding women in Muslim countries need to be covered so that she does not tempt men. I see that practice as the muslim men not taking responsibility for their own actions and blaming a woman for a mans lack of restraint. This doesn't make sense in my mind.

first of all i would like to say i am sorry for being late to answer.

yes, it does not make sense to you because you are intellectual normal human being. there are rules in Qur'an. whole of it is called Sharia. basicly thre are two kinds. there is a certain rules that is for society and other rules that concerns individual alone. for example, stealing is a crime and rules about it is social. but wearing modesty is about individual which means that is an issue between God and person. if a Muslim woman covers herself, she does it for Allah because it is command of Allah. there've been people, there still are people who join Friday salaats just to make sure his friends think he is close to God because otherwise he might lose his job or reputation. these kind of people are not sincere about religion. but of course, situation of women is a bit different because they are threatened.

Women in the west do dress how ever they want to, yes. They can even go around nude on some of our beaches. The freedom to do this without being attacked or berated is important also.

there are sick people all over the world. for example in Spain one guy was raping young girls. he had many victims before they caught him. he was a police officer. but even wearing Burka does not save women from that kind of men.

You see, it's about choice. Most women in the west do not walk around half naked all of the time. They don't feel the need to do that, but the fact that they can chose to if they wish to, is the issue.

they can? i can not believe this.

Muslim women do not have that choice or freedom.

they do have freedom that's given by Allah but in some nations, bigots turned religion into some kind of male centred ideology. there has to be God in the center.

I think that is why we see more extremes in the western world right now. It has only been a "blink of an eye" in time that women of any religion or society have had this freedom without being labelled a prostitute or whore. Like all freedoms newly won, we will see extremes. The pendulum of a clock when pulled to one side and then freed will swing widely to the opposite side initially. Over time it finds it's way to the center. I believe you will see that in our western world with women also. I understand why you think that they are slaves in a sense when you are talking about movie stars or singers etc. They do seem to go out of their way to appeal to men's sexual urges. They know it will work. In a way I see them selling themselves short, but I also understand it is business and they are using what they feel is their best business weapon to sell their music, their bodies. You don't see very many "mature" women singers doing that to any great degree for obvious reasons, but they do manage to keep fans with their talent alone. This fact will likely free the younger ones to make different choices if they should wish to. There are young female singers that aren't using their bodies to sell their music, not all of them are. So you see, we are still in the stage where the pendulum has swung wide to the opposite side where sex sells. It will moderate in time, but there will likely always be some who choose that route and the whole point is that they are free to do that. Freedom to express ourselves in a wide range of ways is very important to the western society.

i think i understand your point.

As far as religion dictating against nudity, I don't really understand that concept anyway.

hmm...let me tell you something that Mohammad (PBUH) said once;

"Do it if you're not ashamed."

God gave each of us free will. i would not call that dictating. choice is left to person. if you are ashamed when you're naked, then cover yourself. some women i know who wears hijab would feel naked if they take off their headgears. i also know women who does not wear hijab. none of them judge each other. noone tells women to wear hijab. they already know it is command of God. they all sit together and study Qur'an.

If god made us he must have liked what he made. I don't see any shame in the nude human body. I don't think god sees it that way either. We have been taught by our religions to suppress our sexual urges to try to control us. It doesn't work and actually makes things worse. We know repressed urges and feelings of guilt and shame do not make for a healthy self esteem. When you have whole societies doing this, we have problems. Sexual energy just gets rerouted into other expressions and sometimes those expressions are violent.

ever wonder why Muslim women and men after being away from each other has to perform Hajj mixed? think about it.

I realize that these last views are not your views and I did not state them to challenge your views, merely to let you know mine. I respect what you believe in these matters.

i have no problem with anything you say. does not matter if i agree or not. you're kind and kindness is something that i love 'to read'

.

 

[challupa]

first of all i would like to say i am sorry for being late to answer.

yes, it does not make sense to you because you are intellectual normal human being. there are rules in Qur'an. whole of it is called Sharia. basicly thre are two kinds. there is a certain rules that is for society and other rules that concerns individual alone. for example, stealing is a crime and rules about it is social. but wearing modesty is about individual which means that is an issue between God and person. if a Muslim woman covers herself, she does it for Allah because it is command of Allah. there've been people, there still are people who join Friday salaats just to make sure his friends think he is close to God because otherwise he might lose his job or reputation. these kind of people are not sincere about religion. but of course, situation of women is a bit different because they are threatened.

I see, so it is not men who make the women wear the burka it is woren out of respect for Allah? I didn't realize that. If it is something a woman choses because of her religious beliefs then I see her as having choice and that is good. I thought it was more because she may be attacked or thought of as "bad" if she did not.

there are sick people all over the world. for example in Spain one guy was raping young girls. he had many victims before they caught him. he was a police officer. but even wearing Burka does not save women from that kind of men.

Yes there are many sick people and in their case nothing will save any woman, even if they do wear a Burka.

they can? i can not believe this.

By half naked, I mean a fair amount of skin showing. In public they usually cover their most private areas. But on some of the beaches they usually go topless or completely nude. These beaches are usually designated for that in the US and Canada, but many of the resorts in Mexico allow nude suntanning. Very different from what you experience I'm sure. Because most people here are used to this, it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I guess it takes away the mystery. Sometimes being completely covered is more intriguing. Go figure. I would like to add that we don't consider these people bad in any way because of their choice to be nude. Men also suntan in the nude on the same beaches so it is not thought to much about.

they do have freedom that's given by Allah but in some nations, bigots turned religion into some kind of male centred ideology. there has to be God in the center.

Yes that has happened all over the world, it is just a matter of degree imo.

hmm...let me tell you something that Mohammad (PBUH) said once;

"Do it if you're not ashamed."

God gave each of us free will. i would not call that dictating. choice is left to person. if you are ashamed when you're naked, then cover yourself. some women i know who wears hijab would feel naked if they take off their headgears. i also know women who does not wear hijab. none of them judge each other. noone tells women to wear hijab. they already know it is command of God. they all sit together and study Qur'an.

That makes sense.

ever wonder why Muslim women and men after being away from each other has to perform Hajj mixed? think about it.

No, I don't know what you mean be performing Hajj mixed. Please tell me what that is.

i have no problem with anything you say. does not matter if i agree or not. you're kind and kindness is something that i love 'to read'

.

That's good, I am glad. I love to learn but in order to do that sometimes we state things in ways that can unknowingly offend. When that happens I always feel bad. Thank you for this opportunity to learn.:yes:

 

[darkendless]

hmm...let me tell you something that Mohammad (PBUH) said once;

"Do it if you're not ashamed."

God gave each of us free will. i would not call that dictating. choice is left to person. if you are ashamed when you're naked, then cover yourself. some women i know who wears hijab would feel naked if they take off their headgears. i also know women who does not wear hijab. none of them judge each other. noone tells women to wear hijab. they already know it is command of God. they all sit together and study Qur'an.

.

In a Sharia country or at least a strong Islamic country wouldnt there be huge penalties for such acts? I find this amazing that Mohammed encourages his people to be the way they want to be, yet clerics in high positions are allowed to control women, to force them to wear such unnecessary clothing.