Islam, how much do you really know about it?

[England my lionheart]

The more i learn of Islam the more suspicious i am of it,the ultimate goal of Islam is an Islamic society where you are told whats good for you and the A-Z of the Quran and true and false Hadiths dictate from eating to going to the toilet rules your whole life oh oh no thanks.
I see no freedom in this,not one bit,all i see is thousands of automatons which kind of reminds me of the Stepford wives in a strange way.
We are constantly told that the Quran is the true word of God yetit has been twisted by different factions in Islam to fit what they want it to fit because it is Ambiguous,the most supprising thing for me is the amount of followers it has although i realise most are in backward countries(i do not mean that as an insult)and thats why its in such a mess.

 

[pharon85]

The more i learn of Islam the more suspicious i am of it,the ultimate goal of Islam is an Islamic society where you are told whats good for you and the A-Z of the Quran and true and false Hadiths dictate from eating to going to the toilet rules your whole life oh oh no thanks.
I see no freedom in this,not one bit,all i see is thousands of automatons which kind of reminds me of the Stepford wives in a strange way.
We are constantly told that the Quran is the true word of God yetit has been twisted by different factions in Islam to fit what they want it to fit because it is Ambiguous,the most supprising thing for me is the amount of followers it has although i realise most are in backward countries(i do not mean that as an insult)and thats why its in such a mess.

i don't know where is the problem
you are suspicious about islam ,so what ?
no one forced you to be a muslim
islam is for muslims,what is your problem?
and the followers of islam all over the world
and the countries you called it backwards ,europe started modern civlization from it is sceince
you have a poltical opinion about islam
when you get policy of your head and look to islam just islam
mapy you can understand it
because after all that you don't understand it right even you think you are

 

[.lava]

The more i learn of Islam the more suspicious i am of it,the ultimate goal of Islam is an Islamic society where you are told whats good for you and the A-Z of the Quran and true and false Hadiths dictate from eating to going to the toilet rules your whole life oh oh no thanks.
I see no freedom in this,not one bit,all i see is thousands of automatons which kind of reminds me of the Stepford wives in a strange way.
We are constantly told that the Quran is the true word of God yetit has been twisted by different factions in Islam to fit what they want it to fit because it is Ambiguous,the most supprising thing for me is the amount of followers it has although i realise most are in backward countries(i do not mean that as an insult)and thats why its in such a mess.

are not European nations back wards? they were very well back wards when hundreds of Muslims were slaughtered in Bosnia. until all those chldren, women and unarmes men got killed they stood still and watched and Bosnia is in Europe. they even gave medals to those UN soldiers who were suppose to defend those poor people but instead they let Serbian butchers kill them now they have their medallions.

and now they are once more very very backwards when Israel is killing children, women. no Western nation today do not come up and speak out their conscience. then what does being civilized mean? being educated, having high tech, having money....NO....education would not make you man who hears his conscience...money would not make you someone who stands up for rightousness...Western governments are democratic, fair and civilized to themselves alone. we, Muslims, at least talk about wrong doers in Islamic nations honestly. you can not even do that when it comes to your governments. so don't bother my friend. this is crystal clear.

.

 

[Alla Prima]

what truth? that is not art. that is his fantasy world and exposing of female body.

I would question your qualifications for making such a statement as it reveals an obvious limited knowledge of art. I've studied art all my life and this film is certainly art of the highest order. Islam has moved into western liberal democracies and in so doing opens itself up to investigation and critique. It is what free societies do and in fact must do to remain free. Art is a vital part of this process.

Google: ayaan hirsi ali interviewed on swedish television to learn more about the movie SUBMISSION.

 

[.lava]

I would question your qualifications for making such a statement as it reveals an obvious limited knowledge of art. I've studied art all my life and this film is certainly art of the highest order. Islam has moved into western liberal democracies and in so doing opens itself up to investigation and critique. It is what free societies do and in fact must do to remain free. Art is a vital part of this process.

Google: ayaan hirsi ali interviewed on swedish television to learn more about the movie SUBMISSION.

thank you, i know art enough. i would not mind if someone use nudity to pull attetion or if someone use beauty of human body. i just do not care. but if one is using religious figures, religious sayings and making something that does not even exist in our prayers, that is an insult, that is a slander. we perform salaat every single day, both women and men. we are not nude doing it so. reflect the truth and say whatever you wanna say instead of slandering and making us look like psycopaths and hypocratical. (i do not mean you) an artist imo is someone who is emphatic, who's sensitive. i have many artists friends, none religious. they use female body too. but they emphatize with religious and they show respect to their values. no respect for values and thinking it is art...sorry...damage is not art.

welcome

.

 

[Alla Prima]

thank you, i know art enough. i would not mind if someone use nudity to pull attetion or if someone use beauty of human body. i just do not care. but if one is using religious figures, religious sayings and making something that does not even exist in our prayers, that is an insult, that is a slander. we perform salaat every single day, both women and men. we are not nude doing it so. reflect the truth and say whatever you wanna say instead of slandering and making us look like psycopaths and hypocratical. (i do not mean you) an artist imo is someone who is emphatic, who's sensitive. i have many artists friends, none religious. they use female body too. but they emphatize with religious and they show respect to their values. no respect for values and thinking it is art...sorry...damage is not art.

welcome

.

Thank you for the welcome.

In free societies we are free to offend otherwise we would soon lose our freedom. Islam (it's teachings) offends me but that is simply something I must live with. No slander is present in this movie. It is a statement regarding the ideology of Islam not individuals. The role of the artist extends beyond what you have stated. It includes that which may offend not merely that which soothes. Why? So as to open up interest and dialogue. This is how we grow and learn about our world and ourselves. This leads (hopefully) to positive change. SUBMISSION criticizes Islamic misogynistic values which need to change. We do not tolerate such values nor should we.

 

[.lava]

Thank you for the welcome.

In free societies we are free to offend otherwise we would soon lose our freedom.

so it is not an option to use your intellect and express the same point without offending people?

Islam (it's teachings) offends me but that is simply something I must live with.

you claim to know Islam. show me some of what offends you.

No slander is present in this movie.

no Muslim women perform daily salaat with that transparent dress. not even one single woman.

It is a statement regarding the ideology of Islam not individuals.

though Islam is practiced by İndividuals and religion would not exist without people.

The role of the artist extends beyond what you have stated. It includes that which may offend not merely that which soothes. Why? So as to open up interest and dialogue.

OK, let me say it again. if you care for dialog, then you have to care for values of others. if you do not care AT ALL, then there is no dialog.

This is how we grow and learn about our world and ourselves.

what did you learn? did not you learn that you should show some respect?

This leads (hopefully) to positive change.

it does not lead any other direction than hate, dear. i remember when movie maker was killed a friend of mine told me someone killed this guy. i felt bad and asked why. she told me that he showed Muslim woman performing salaat naked. my friend was not religious, she is actually an artist. unfortunately none of us could defend movie maker. we would not, we could not because he was way out of line and left nothing to us peaceful people to defend about him.

SUBMISSION criticizes Islamic misogynistic values which need to change. We do not tolerate such values nor should we.

what does misogynistic mean?

in my whole life, i never asked anyone to tolerate me.

.

 

[Breathe]

what does misogynistic mean

Literally, "Hatred of women" but used to also mean, "discrimination of women". I think the Turkish translation is, "kadın düşmanligi"..?

 

[England my lionheart]

i don't know where is the problem
you are suspicious about islam ,so what ?
no one forced you to be a muslim
islam is for muslims,what is your problem?
and the followers of islam all over the world
and the countries you called it backwards ,europe started modern civlization from it is sceince
you have a poltical opinion about islam
when you get policy of your head and look to islam just islam
mapy you can understand it
because after all that you don't understand it right even you think you are

OK let me put it this way,Hamas(Islamic resistance movement)not my words,Hezbollah (Army of God) there are more but i won't bore you with them all.
Now i'll get to the point,when these Muslims are pointed out we are told they are not Muslims because they do not follow the Quran properly and are guided by false Hadiths.
I have spoken to one of these hate filled individuals and they say that Muslims such you who i am sure follows the Quran correctly are not Muslims,now here's the problem for me,if Islam is the only true religion why are there so many different interpretations of it,i could maybe understand someone like me who does'nt read Arabic but come now many of those do.
If i truly thought the Quran(Koran) was the word of God i would adhere to it but it is just another Abrahmic religion.

 

[Alla Prima]

so it is not an option to use your intellect and express the same point without offending people?

The concern isn't whether or not others will be offended but what will most powerfully express the artist's view. Muslims (or anyone else) don't get to dictate what artists do and as you may know almost anything anyone does will offend someone.

you claim to know Islam. show me some of what offends you.

Later

no Muslim women perform daily salaat with that transparent dress. not even one single woman.

The movie isn't a depiction of real life. It is art.

though Islam is practiced by ?ndividuals and religion would not exist without people.

We can discuss an ideology without discussing the individuals who subscribe to the ideology. The ideology is a collection of ideas. People are more than a collection of ideas. If as you suggest the two are one in the same then it would not be possible for any Muslim to leave Islam since to leave Islam he would necessarily cease to exist. Conversely it would not be possible for a non Muslim to convert to Islam.

 

[Alla Prima]

OK, let me say it again. if you care for dialog, then you have to care for values of others. if you do not care AT ALL, then there is no dialog.

Your values are not necessarily the values of the artist nor others. I have no problem with the values presented in van Gogh's movie.

what did you learn? did not you learn that you should show some respect?

I will not show respect for the mistreatment of women.

it does not lead any other direction than hate, dear. i remember when movie maker was killed a friend of mine told me someone killed this guy. i felt bad and asked why. she told me that he showed Muslim woman performing salaat naked. my friend was not religious, she is actually an artist. unfortunately none of us could defend movie maker. we would not, we could not because he was way out of line and left nothing to us peaceful people to defend about him.

First of all I doubt you or your friend understood the movie. All you see is disrespect. Secondly I would suggest you focus your offense at the mistreatment of women within the culture of Islam.

 

[England my lionheart]

are not European nations back wards? they were very well back wards when hundreds of Muslims were slaughtered in Bosnia. until all those chldren, women and unarmes men got killed they stood still and watched and Bosnia is in Europe. they even gave medals to those UN soldiers who were suppose to defend those poor people but instead they let Serbian butchers kill them now they have their medallions.

and now they are once more very very backwards when Israel is killing children, women. no Western nation today do not come up and speak out their conscience. then what does being civilized mean? being educated, having high tech, having money....NO....education would not make you man who hears his conscience...money would not make you someone who stands up for rightousness...Western governments are democratic, fair and civilized to themselves alone. we, Muslims, at least talk about wrong doers in Islamic nations honestly. you can not even do that when it comes to your governments. so don't bother my friend. this is crystal clear.

.

Some European countries are backwards so i am glad i am British,although there are some British that are morons,I am happy for you if your religion gives you strength and peace all i am saying is you cannot tell me it is the only true religion.

 

[England my lionheart]

thank you, i know art enough. i would not mind if someone use nudity to pull attetion or if someone use beauty of human body. i just do not care. but if one is using religious figures, religious sayings and making something that does not even exist in our prayers, that is an insult, that is a slander. we perform salaat every single day, both women and men. we are not nude doing it so. reflect the truth and say whatever you wanna say instead of slandering and making us look like psycopaths and hypocratical. (i do not mean you) an artist imo is someone who is emphatic, who's sensitive. i have many artists friends, none religious. they use female body too. but they emphatize with religious and they show respect to their values. no respect for values and thinking it is art...sorry...damage is not art.

welcome

.

As i said before Lava things are different in the west,when we view this film we do not just see a naked Woman,Art is the oldest medium in the world (cave paintings) and is not always a vase with flowers in it sometimes it is hard hitting,spiritual,funny,surreal and sometimes complete nonsense but it is Art.

 

[.lava]

Your values are not necessarily the values of the artist nor others. I have no problem with the values presented in van Gogh's movie.

of course, my values are not your or his values. i don't expect people to be exactly the same. this is actually essence of my point. this is why we need to respect each other. he made a movie about US, using his own values and he ignored OUR values all together. he did not have to have the same values Muslim have. but he should have considered that because it was about Muslims, because we are different, because we have different values.

I will not show respect for the mistreatment of women.

who are you responding? me? where did i say that you should respect mistreatment of women?

First of all I doubt you or your friend understood the movie.

second of all i did not watch the movie and i will not. thirdly do not act like you know who i am. you do not know where i came from. you do not know my friend.

i am not even talking about movie itself. i am against one part of it. one part where i see a naked woman and because i do not think i must see that woman naked, i did not continue watching movie.

All you see is disrespect. Secondly I would suggest you focus your offense at the mistreatment of women within the culture of Islam.

thanks for suggestion. i do not need it though. i follow Qur'an and i would advice what it says. i can not force people to be like me. if they think they have rights to mistreat women, they are wrong. if they think they are free to mistreat animals, they are wrong. if you think i need to mistreat ignorant men for being cruel, you are wrong.

.

 

[.lava]

As i said before Lava things are different in the west,when we view this film we do not just see a naked Woman,Art is the oldest medium in the world (cave paintings) and is not always a vase with flowers in it sometimes it is hard hitting,spiritual,funny,surreal and sometimes complete nonsense but it is Art.

my sweet friend, i know. i lived in Europe, i know it is a different culture. there are tones of nudity in many paintings, there are lots of erotic stuff in movies but none of the makers were killed for nudity they used, right? so, do you understand this is not just about nudity of a woman?

.

 

[England my lionheart]

my sweet friend, i know. i lived in Europe, i know it is a different culture. there are tones of nudity in many paintings, there are lots of erotic stuff in movies but none of the makers were killed for nudity they used, right? so, do you understand this is not just about nudity of a woman?

.

You see it as Blasphemy?

 

[.lava]

You see it as Blasphemy?

hmm...i am not judging it from Qur'anic point of view. i can do that but you know belief is personal issue. for example drinking alcohol is blasphemy. if you drink alcohol it does not offend me. yea i have a stomach too, my own mouth as well and i choose not to drink. end of story.

on the other hand, if you go and try to drink in Kaba then you might have a problem with Muslims and i could not even defend you. or if you built a bar or striptease club that looks like mosque or Kaba then you might have disturbing reactions. i could not defend you there either. but if you're drinking in your house or in a pub or in a restaurant, i would defend you against anyone who forces you not to drink. not that i support you to drink alcohol i would not but i know that you have free will, so do i. you drink and i don't. we are equal.

there are lines that we should not cross, not for art, not for free speech...etc if we really know we are different. i think there is no way we live in a peaceful world if people refuse to respect what other finds divine and sacred. this is not a religious issue, this is social.

.

 

[Alla Prima]

of course, my values are not your or his values. i don't expect people to be exactly the same. this is actually essence of my point. this is why we need to respect each other.

What you're suggesting is that we here in the West alter our own values to suit Islam so that dialog can happen. That we must show respect for the values of Islam by not producing a movie that offends Muslims like you. This is censorship. We here in the free world have the freedom of speech. Nothing in how the movie was made offends me. What does offend me is how Islam treats it's women and it is this that the movie addresses.

he made a movie about US, using his own values and he ignored OUR values all together.

He is criticizing Islamic values and for this he was murdered.

he did not have to have the same values Muslim have. but he should have considered that because it was about Muslims, because we are different, because we have different values.

The movie is about how Islam treats it's women.

who are you responding? me? where did i say that you should respect mistreatment of women?

You suggested I show respect. The movie was about the mistreatment of women. The disrespect of women. I will not side with Islam by showing Islam respect for how it treats it's women therefore I will not show respect for the mistreatment of women.

second of all i did not watch the movie and i will not. thirdly do not act like you know who i am. you do not know where i came from. you do not know my friend.

i am not even talking about movie itself. i am against one part of it. one part where i see a naked woman and because i do not think i must see that woman naked, i did not continue watching movie.

I said I doubted you understood the movie. I was right. How can you possibly understand the movie if you've never watched it. This is what I know about you.

thanks for suggestion. i do not need it though. i follow Qur'an and i would advice what it says. i can not force people to be like me. if they think they have rights to mistreat women, they are wrong. if they think they are free to mistreat animals, they are wrong. if you think i need to mistreat ignorant men for being cruel, you are wrong.

You refuse too critically examine your own religion. This is normal for Muslims. They are taught not to. You have much to learn but Islam will not teach you. Islam will do all it can to keep you ignorant of the true nature of Islam.

But I think you're curious. You're posting here at this site and that's a good thing.

 

[.lava]

What you're suggesting is that we here in the West alter our own values to suit Islam so that dialog can happen. That we must show respect for the values of Islam by not producing a movie that offends Muslims like you. This is censorship. We here in the free world have the freedom of speech. Nothing in how the movie was made offends me. What does offend me is how Islam treats it's women and it is this that the movie addresses.

suit Islam? Islam is written in a book. you can not disturb it or damage it or suit it. this is a social problem. you want dialog? then as you hear yourself try to hear me too.

movie was made. it exists. i am not telling you to destroy copies.
i am not offended but i can see people would be and i relate with their feelings because everyday i perform exactly the same salaat she does in movie. i say the same prayers which is taken from Qur'an, the book i know as word of God. that prayer is divine to Muslims. it might not be divine to you. this is an issue between you and God.

He is criticizing Islamic values and for this he was murdered.

he did not know Islamic values. he only knew wrong-doings among Muslims.

The movie is about how Islam treats it's women.

Islam is not a person.

You suggested I show respect.

did i? dear, friend, do what you want. your free will, your path, your intellect. i have my own.

The movie was about the mistreatment of women. The disrespect of women. I will not side with Islam by showing Islam respect for how it treats it's women therefore I will not show respect for the mistreatment of women.

i would have sit down and listened to you if there were no thousands of rapes, mistreatments and women hatred in Western nations. men were given more physical power and all over the globe many men are abusive.

I said I doubted you understood the movie. I was right.

no, you're not right about me.

How can you possibly understand the movie if you've never watched it.

i never said that i understood the movie. you should have red my earlier posts then.

This is what I know about you.

this is what you did not know. in fact, you still do not know.

You refuse too critically examine your own religion.

it is not my own religion. i am a living human being. i try to understand everything i perceive.

This is normal for Muslims. They are taught not to. You have much to learn but Islam will not teach you. Islam will do all it can to keep you ignorant of the true nature of Islam

really? 2 billion are taught the same thing? ha ha that is really funny. is this why there are dozens of sections?

oh yea i am ignorant and thank God i know it.

But I think you're curious. You're posting here at this site and that's a good thing.

do not think about me, i might be addictive.

.

 

[Alla Prima]

there are lines that we should not cross, not for art, not for free speech...etc if we really know we are different. i think there is no way we live in a peaceful world if people refuse to respect what other finds divine and sacred. this is not a religious issue, this is social.

Islam is neither divine nor sacred to me and I will not treat it as such. Islam doesn't get to tell me what I can say about it. That is our freedom of not only speech but ideas.