Islam, how much do you really know about it?

[Alla Prima]

I believe in lava's opinion that saying "I believe" instead of "I know" indicates a lack of faith. If you think about it everyone "Knows" their religion is the right one, otherwise why would they stay in it. I know it's politically incorrect to say some things but is it any different if I think them and do not say them aloud? On the other hand one might see saying "I know" as arrogance.

But we're talking about the right religion for others. Islam doesn't merely say Islam the one and only religion for Muslims. It says it is the one and only religion for all people. I have no problem with Muslims saying they 'know' Islam is right for them. I would expect that. But just don't going telling me that Islam is the right religion for me otherwise Islam will be seen as the bully and this is what's going down when Islam proclaims all are born Islam.

 

[.lava]

I think he means that you shouldn't say. Obviously you can say what you want, but don't expect to be respected. If someone says that they know their religion is true, then they are either lying or they are so deluded that they should be locked up. It is absolutely impossible to 100% know that something is true, through faith.

i do not expect anything from people who hate Islam. maybe your definition of faith does not work around here. we are given proof enough. yet i would never share my experiences of this path. from where you stand i appear to be deluded and i do understand you. but for the sake of where i stand, i would -of course- chose my experience, my perception over yours. i would not pretend i have doubts just because you have doubts. love me or leave me. simple that it is.

.

 

[.lava]

I believe in lava's opinion that saying "I believe" instead of "I know" indicates a lack of faith. If you think about it everyone "Knows" their religion is the right one, otherwise why would they stay in it. I know it's politically incorrect to say some things but is it any different if I think them and do not say them aloud? On the other hand one might see saying "I know" as arrogance.

it was just matter of speech. i mean, if i was asked if i believed then i would have said 'yes, i believe'. but that is not how i asked. i was asked if children were born Muslim which i answered as NO, i also explained kids need to grow up to chose their religion. then i was asked if kids were born Islam. as i know it humans were born upon Islam. so i said 'yes they are'.

.

 

[.lava]

I agree with the others. What we are saying is that when dealing with speculation it is best not to promote it as absolute fact as doing so damages the credibility of the person making the comment. It is all very well for you to strongly believe in certain things, but unless you have verifiable proof, that what you say is fact, then it is incumbent on you to say so or risk having your dialogue dismissed as being no more than empty rhetoric.

proof is personal. you want proof, then first thing you should know i am someone just like you and i am not the authority to ask for proof. i do not ask for proof from other people either. they are as weak as i am.

there is only one thing that could damage credibility of a person. that is dishonesty. if i am expected to pretend just to be respected by people, then i suggest you to simply give up. it is not gonna happen. if i must lose my credibility cos of honesty, so be it.

.

 

[HoldemDB9]

i do not expect anything from people who hate Islam. maybe your definition of faith does not work around here. we are given proof enough. yet i would never share my experiences of this path. from where you stand i appear to be deluded and i do understand you. but for the sake of where i stand, i would -of course- chose my experience, my perception over yours. i would not pretend i have doubts just because you have doubts. love me or leave me. simple that it is.

.

I hope you weren't referring to me when you said "people who hate Islam", because I do not hate Islam. I'm pretty sure my definition of faith is the same as everyone else's. I know that faith does not equal knowledge. Since you say you have had experiences that make you completely sure that Islam is true, I do think that you have unfortunately lost it. However I would like to know, what do you think of other people in other religions who say that they are 100% sure that they are right about their God? Do you think that they are deluded?

 

[.lava]

I hope you weren't referring to me when you said "people who hate Islam", because I do not hate Islam. I'm pretty sure my definition of faith is the same as everyone else's. I know that faith does not equal knowledge. Since you say you have had experiences that make you completely sure that Islam is true, I do think that you have unfortunately lost it. However I would like to know, what do you think of other people in other religions who say that they are 100% sure that they are right about their God? Do you think that they are deluded?

no i am not referring to you. i do not know you at all.

there are two realities. we are all in one of them. this is physical reality. when you enter Islam (which btw not all Muslims are Islam) you begin to experience what's beyond it. ordinary faith therefor considered as believing in unseen. but unseen does not mean impossible to see. so for each Muslim there are two options. he might have faith but because he is not Islam he would continue as he is all the time. or he would enter Islam and his faith would get stronger. this is of course knowledge of tasavvuf so i do not expect you to know about it. only if you say 'i am done' then you would lose it. that would be what i call 'bigot'.

in this world everybody is right.

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[Alla Prima]

i do not expect anything from people who hate Islam.

Please stop saying what I feel. I've explained my feelings regarding islam.

 

[Luminous]

I don't hate Islam
You can't hate an inanimate idea...

 

[YmirGF]

I don't hate Islam
You can't hate an inanimate idea...

This is a good point. To actually hate something there must be a pre-existing emotional bond. I think what many confuse, for whatever self-serving reasons, with hatred is distrust. For example, I certainly don't care enough about Islam TO hate Islam. My distrust resides in the accounts of the "Prophet" of Islam himself. In essence, I believe that much that has made it down through the ages is "a crock". Given that I have already read many accounts of the life of Muhammed, from a wide variety of sources, it is unlikely that any Muslim could change my view.

It is my opinion that the most revealing information comes from the writings of Buhkari and others. They pretty well solidified my thoughts and feelings about the much vaunted "Prophet" and Islam itself. The Qur'an is definitely an amusing little read, but if you want to have some real entertainment, check out Sunnah and Hadith
(It is a very lengthy series, but well worth the read.)

 

[England my lionheart]

Article Twelve: Hamas in Palestine, Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism: Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband’s authorization, and a slave without his masters’ permission. This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with Heaven. When Moses came and threw his baton, sorcery and sorcerers became futile.

How does this figure in Islam,are they going against the Quran or is this legitimate?

 

[Alla Prima]

Article Twelve: Hamas in Palestine, Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism: Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband’s authorization, and a slave without his masters’ permission. This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with Heaven. When Moses came and threw his baton, sorcery and sorcerers became futile.

How does this figure in Islam,are they going against the Quran or is this legitimate?

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all the world and whatever is in it. A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it. And if a houri from Paradise appeared to the people of the earth, she would fill the space between Heaven and the Earth with light and pleasant scent and her head cover is better than the world and whatever is in it."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 65:
Narrated Abu Musa:

A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 72:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)."

Narrated Al-Mughira bin Shu'ba:

Our Prophet told us about the message of our Lord that "Whoever amongst us is killed will go to Paradise." Umar asked the Prophet, "Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and their's (i.e. those of the Pagan's) will go to the (Hell) fire?" The Prophet said, "Yes."



002.216
PICKTHAL: Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

002.217
PICKTHAL: They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

 

[England my lionheart]

Its powerful stuff

 

[Judgment]

Where others see a Blaze of light - I see Submission and my way is the only way. I see a God that has set a seal on my heart and my ears and my eyes so that I am unable to learn the truth - This God prevents me from Understanding.

I believe that there is an Allah – But – I do not believe that Allah is the one true God and I do not believe that Prophet Muhammed and Islam are perfect and beyond reproach.. That makes me an Unbeliever in Allah’s eyes and my fate has been set.

Above all, Disbelievers, Unbelievers (Like Myself) of the lessons of this God are in for one Hell of a painful ride when they leave this plane of existence.

Because I am an Unbeliever I am the worst of beasts....or.. so it is written:

008.055
YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

Because I am an Unbeliever Allah does not love me....or.. so it is written:

030.045
YUSUFALI: That He may reward those who believe and work righteous deeds, out of his Bounty. For He loves not those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
SHAKIR: That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Because I am an Unbeliever and Allah does not love me - this is to be my fate : ( ....or.. so it is written:

004.056
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

 

[England my lionheart]

Where others see a Blaze of light - I see Submission and my way is the only way. I see a God that has set a seal on my heart and my ears and my eyes so that I am unable to learn the truth - This God prevents me from Understanding.

I believe that there is an Allah – But – I do not believe that Allah is the one true God and I do not believe that Prophet Muhammed and Islam are perfect and beyond reproach.. That makes me an Unbeliever in Allah’s eyes and my fate has been set.

Above all, Disbelievers, Unbelievers (Like Myself) of the lessons of this God are in for one Hell of a painful ride when they leave this plane of existence.

Because I am an Unbeliever I am the worst of beasts....or.. so it is written:

008.055

SUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

Because I am an Unbeliever Allah does not love me....or.. so it is written:

030.045
YUSUFALI: That He may reward those who believe and work righteous deeds, out of his Bounty. For He loves not those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: That He may reward out of His bounty those who believe and do good works. Lo! He loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).
SHAKIR: That He may reward those who believe and do good out of His grace; surely He does not love the unbelievers.

Because I am an Unbeliever and Allah does not love me - this is to be my fate : ( ....or.. so it is written:

004.056
YUSUFALI: Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Not an endearing religion is it,it reminds me of the young Woman they hung in Iran,before hanging her the gave her 80 lashes so she was hanged in pain from the lashes and choked slowly as there is no drop they lift them up slowly by crane,sharia law isn't pretty

 

[Judgment]

England my Lionheart: Not an endearing religion is it,it reminds me of the young Woman they hung in Iran,before hanging her the gave her 80 lashes so she was hanged in pain from the lashes and choked slowly as there is no drop they lift them up slowly by crane,sharia law isn't pretty.

No - not endearing to me. Cruel. For every positive verse to be found in the Quran and Hadith there is also a negative one. No wonder so many take such different paths. The path to enlightenment is not clear.
NO religion, no system of thought is infallible and none should be followed blindly - Question 'every word' .

 

[England my lionheart]

No - not endearing to me. Cruel. For every positive verse to be found in the Quran and Hadith there is also a negative one. No wonder so many take such different paths. The path to enlightenment is not clear.
NO religion, no system of thought is infallible and none should be followed blindly - Question 'every word' .

Its Ambiguos and thats the problem

 

[Alla Prima]

No - not endearing to me. Cruel. For every positive verse to be found in the Quran and Hadith there is also a negative one. No wonder so many take such different paths. The path to enlightenment is not clear.
NO religion, no system of thought is infallible and none should be followed blindly - Question 'every word' .

And there lies what I see as the heart of the problem. Islam is not to be questioned. One would not be submitting otherwise. It's prophet and it's prophet's example is without fault.

 

[Alla Prima]

Its Ambiguos and thats the problem

Yeah that's a problem. Meccan Islam Medinan Islam.


from Bill Warner:
Indeed, Medinan verses are totally different from the Meccan's, concerning treatment, the relationship and the practical policies toward the infidels, or actually all the non-Muslims. Nevertheless, even without entering the argumentation of which of these two periods is better qualified, it is suggested to investigate the abrogation (al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh) principle. If it exists and proven practical according to the most important authoritative and reliable Islamic exegetes and religious scholars, then it ends any possible debate: Meccan verses concerning the relevant conflicting issues were nullified and rendered void, and the Medinan verses are the important and decisive.


The whole article can be read here:
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/abrogation-and-the-koran/

 

[England my lionheart]

Political Islam

This is an interesting read

 

[England my lionheart]

But i guess you know most if not all of that anyway