There is a short film by Theo Van Gogh called Submission and is available to view on Utube,has anyone else seen it and what do you think about it
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Islam, how much do you really know about it?
- Thread starter Gharib
- Start date
.lava
Veteran Member
dear friend, everyone in this world is alone. i mean it, really alone. each person has three main tools to use; Intellect, conscience and free will. Western nations, their media never talk about good deeds of Muslims. they always carry incidents that your conscience would reject. we know other side of the coin. because we are Muslims. look at the societies of great nations of West. check out the gangs of USA, check out racism in Europe, check out the crimes that committed in Western nations. while Western societies look down on Muslims, in their societies many women are raped, many people are getting killed, worst of all many commits suicide. if you put everything aside, like forget all religions, names, reasons...etc. there is the truth. there are any kind of people in every nation. everything happens anywhere in this planet. as there are woman haters in USA, there are people who's fair and lovely in Muslim nations. imo, this is the point most of Western miss. i know that lately crimes became even weirder. you know, 15-16 year old kids go to school with gun and kill his friends for example. ever heard such a event from Iran? father keeps his own daughter in basement for decades and he rapes her and have kids from her. that shocks me very much. unimaginable for me. there is child porn. another shocking thing. how did those two words come together? it is like every nation has a coin. but nowadays, Western people forget other side of their coin. many say 'there is no other' yes there is not. i say, their error is your test, mine too. because we judge. do you know what happens when we judge? for example, if someone lied to you and you found out. you became angry and insulted him for telling lie to you. very soon, you'd be lying to someone. what we see in others is what we have within. i can say it for nations too. if we insult and look down on others, we become them because we are all human. we all have intellect and conscience. we all have free will to use these two tools. my consicence definetely rejects cruelty. but also my intellect shows that each person is alone with his act. you killed someone? there is no way you can find peace within you. i don't assume that, i know it. those who torture others are living miserable lives. i have no doubt. because there is no other way. 2 billion Muslims, among them there are sections that look down on each other. each section believes others are wrong but they are the only ones who's right. then there is East and West. each look down on each other and each believe they are right and other is wrong. it is both funny and tragic. because they all do the same act under different names, with different cultures, with different rules. don't you see that? nothing could damage Islam. but Western should realize, what they see, what they insult, what they mock is actually who they are, what they are and what they have within themselves and within their societies. continuesly seeing criminal acts from Muslim Nations? well, don't let it blind you. good and bad happens everywhere. there were, there are and there would always be people who live and teach truth of Islam, actual Islam that's written in Qur'an. a Muslim hears about it but he still do things against Islam in the name of Islam? OK, i know there are people like that. noone could be brain washed if you ask me. his conscience is not different from yours. he would hear the exact same from the voice of conscience. conscience of each person (no matter what religion, no matter what culture...etc) has the exact voice. for that matter everyone is equal. same goes with intellect too. intellect does not have millions of paths. it has just one voice for entire humanity. same with ego. when ego beats intellect and consicience, people become criminal, cruel, violent...etc. same with every single human that's created. so, he hears the verses of Qur'an that invites him to love human beings but instead he follows his ego and he kills. but Islam itself remains the same. are Western using their intellect and conscience when they call cruelty of ego 'Path of Islam'? or is it their ego who says that? would someone who follows his consicence, could he ever insult and hate someone who's throwing himself into fire?
sorry, i was late to answer now i talk too much
i hope i made my point..
.lava
Veteran Member
you are one dilemma! how are we gonna bring peace to this world if you illogically insist that what i find humane should be replaced with something else?
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.lava
Veteran Member
OK, when a child born into a Muslim nation, he is Muslim. that does not mean he follows Qur'an. why would someone kill another human being? it has to be either self defense or not. i don't know history of Sikhs but i assume if there've been people who's got killed, it might be because they used their free will, they chosed their own path. that is what those killers did too. they followed themselves. so i have 2 billion co-religionists? show some mercy on me, please. there are Muslims who would call me satanic. are you aware of this? probably not, since you call 2 billion 'my tale'.
isn't it stereotypical image of Muslim in your mind? if you sincerely wish to see this world change, start from yourself. if you don't, then don't expect anyone to change.
of course you are simple human being, i am too. but you know, as long as you call me 'you guys' i don't think i could be understood. because 2 billion is not one guy or one mind.
do you know how Qur'an describes kaffir? btw, there is no death penalty for kaffirs.
oh it is not your problem, well it should be. as a simple human being, i believe you value human life. you also would know in war zones, not just men die. women, children and old people suffer very badly. so you are OK with it if it does not touch you?
i can relate with the emotion here but i did not kill anyone. as a Muslim, i am against vendetta. you can not hold son responsible of actions of his father. that is so cruel.
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I assure you , in this case , there was no question of self-defence.
Guru Arjan Dev and Guru Teg Bahadur belonged to the Sikh religion in India , and they were minding their own business, and simply teaching people about God and how to lead a pure and good life.
The islamic fanatics motivated by the mullahs , were the ones , who terming them as kaffirs and infidels, tortured and murdered them in cold blood. These fanatics and mullahs were quite clearly well-educated in the islamic scriptures, and it was from that they drew their conclusions.
Guru Arjan Dev - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Guru Tegh Bahadur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They were following their own religion, and they got killed because they did the 'sin ' of following their own religion, according to islamic fundamentalists.
Well, when some idiots, in the name of religion , starts persecuting noble sages and peoples all over the world, then such a stereotypical image will definetely be created in everyones mind , throughout the world. It is a very natural thing.
The Sikhs , inspite of being a tolerant and peace-loving people, were persistently harrassed and persecuted by the muslim fanatics and fundamentalists.
Finally , after the death of Guru Teg Bahadur , they had enough of this persecution nonsense by the islamic fanatics, and took on a martial disposition under Guru Gobind Singh and the Khalsa , which put an end to the perecution by the muslims on the Sikhs and other non-muslims who were suffering from islamic persecution and intolerance.
Guru Gobind Singh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then why is it that many innocent jews, christians, buddhists, bahais, sikhs , hindus, zoroastrians put to death by islamic fanatics.
We are at the moment focussed on saving non-muslims from islamic fanatics, as we are non-muslims ourselves and that is our first priority. Then we will dwell on the problem of saving muslims from muslim fanatics and fundamentalists , which after all, as you yourself say, is a great crime against humanity.
Maybe so, but it is our responsibility to ensure that the sheer fanatical nonsense, that happened in the past, does not happen again.
.lava
Veteran Member
dear friend, the truth is there are messengers of God in every group of people. there are saints among Muslims, among Christians, among Jews, among Buddhists, among Hindus...ETC. God never favors anyone. but masses in general are on the wrong path because each mass has a certain belief; "Only we deserve heaven, rest of the world would go hell." this is wrong. as i said before, i really do not know your history but you're not the first one who told me about crimes that committed by Muslims in India. i am inclined to believe you. so, if those Gurus who got killed were men of God then those Muslims who killed them were infidels. God knows who is who.
our religious leaders are very well educated as well but they deny verses of Qur'an. let me tell you why there are many sections in Islam while there is only one book. long time ago some Imams wrote commentaries of Qur'an. some people believed in one imam, others believed in another...here we have sections. Sharia in Qur'an is certain. Qur'an calls those who divides people infidels. who cares if Mullahs were educated or not, it is not Qur'an they studied. they follow their egos and ego listens to Satan.
2:78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
each person is given free will so we could make our decisions. they have all the rights to follow any religion they want. this right is not supposed to be given by other people. this right is given by God from your birth. everybody commits sin. what i do (or what you do) is between my God and me. no third person is given permission to interfere.
creating a steretypical image in your mind is equal what those Muslim mishcheif have in their minds. no difference. i do understand if you felt rage when you think over what happened to people you admire. i would feel the same. but you should not perceive billions as potential murderers. that would be unfair and actually be a source of unhappiness for you.
excuse my ignorance but i did not even know the name Sikh until i met someone here on RF. this is why i'd never heard of any incident you mentioned. but i know it for sure there are violent bigots. they hate humanity. i hope they disappear soon, all together.
6:33 We know well how their talk grieveth thee, though in truth they deny not thee (Muhammad) but evil-doers flout the revelations of Allah.
God gives you permission to defend yourselves. noone would blame you for it. i hope you don't repeat what they did to you. revenge is terrible issue. those people maybe were Muslims but their act is not Islamic. maybe some day you empathize with how i feel. Islam has nothing to do with terror and violence but nowadays many people always mention 'Islam' and 'terror' together.
well, you forgot to mention Muslims. why do they kill Muslims? could you answer that?
sweet friend, Islam means submission. someone who submits would accept people as they are. please don't forget that. i mean it. i am so tired to see this world is ruled by megolomaniacs. we are all human. we all want to be happy. some people can not stand to see others happy because they are fullfilled with hatred, they hate themselves so how could they love us? i am writing these, because i really want you to see that Islam and our Holy Book Qur'an is not owned by those who take pleasure out of other's pain. we exist too. we are peaceful people. we follow Qur'an. but as one verse says we follow it without ignoring it partially. there are some who believes book partially and deny the rest.
3:119 Lo! you are they who will love them while they do not love you, and you believe in the Book (in) the whole of it;
so would you kick me out if i come there? i sure hope you would not
don't let murderers come between us. don't let that happen. i hope it never happens again and i hope some day you meet Muslims who follow whole of the book and then you may realize religion is not ideology. it can never be forced on anyone.
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion..
God does not love cruel people. this is repeatedly said for many times in Qur'an.
i feel your pain and i am sorry that your people were tortured to death just for being.
thank you
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It is possible to be Humane without religion,there are many good people in the world who are'nt religious.
I would add to this that when i watched the film(it is less than 10 minutes long) i could not understand why Theo Van Gogh was murdered for making the film,i am interested on anyones thought on this.
.lava
Veteran Member
Dear England my lionheart, this is why there are atheists that i respect. but ego can not be purified without help of God. i mean, for example you can fight your anger and beat it once or twice but eventually it would defeat you. then you would start all over again. because ego does not die and it does not vanish away. but it can be purified to make vices turn into virtue of Spirit. love instead hate, generosity instead jealousy, honesty instead telling lie...etc. religion is meant to make people reach God before they die. more your ego is purified, you become closer to God and you become happier. when ego is completely purified you become one of the happiest cos that means fight within and fight with outside world is completely over, for good. that is Islam/submission.
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I think its good that peoples beliefs give them comfort or strength but religion IMO should play no part in anything else.
.lava
Veteran Member
but why should not it play part since even without it people would believe in something else?
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Yes, everyone believes in something. lava I just wanted to say I have enjoyed your last few posts. There is much truth in what you are saying. It is the actions of fringe fundamentalists that are causing so much grief in all groups and religions right now. I know there are wonderful loving Muslims, Jews, Christians, and on and on for each group and religion. For those of us that believe in living harmoniously we are a threat to those who do not want to live that way. They do not want anyone taking away their perceived right to kill in God's name. I try very hard not to stereotype, but it is hard sometimes. I imagine it is sometimes hard for you too when you hear what the other groups are doing to muslims.
I wanted to say that I think the other groups are starting to come to the aid of muslims that are being killed by extremeist muslims. The Canadian mission in Afganistan I believe is about helping the Afgan people to be free of the Taliban rule. I know I could be wrong about that, but that is what we are told. I hope it is true. I love forums like this because we get to come together as a diverse group of people, we get to learn about each other and in my mind that helps people come closer together and gain a better understanding. This I believe is critical to the survival of humanity. Understanding each other has to start somewhere and the internet is a very useful tool to do that. Thank you for bridging the gap for me.
Not neccaserily so,there are people who accomplish great things without their religion having anything to do with it,Einstein was'nt religious at all and Nikola Tesla whom most of the world has benefited from and came from a Church background still had not one iota of religious beliefs in his work.
I have looked at religion through history and it is hard to find anything positive that it has accomplished and IMO religion is Man made and more than that it is corrupted by Men.
Lets look at Saints,Immams who are regarded as Saints,some people who follow a religion have a "Holier than thou" attitude as if they are specially chosen,how about the Muslims,Jews and Christians during the Crusades,what was accomplished there or the Spanish inquisition,the partition of India,Catholic against Protestant,this is all religion has accomplished.
I am still hoping someone will comment on the short film submission
Warning,you may find the film offensive and that is the last thing i would want is to offend.
Warning,you may find the film offensive and that is the last thing i would want is to offend.
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.lava
Veteran Member
OK i watched 1 min 16 sec. i am sorry i am not willing to watch all of it. nudity is the problem there. i find it disturbing. that is not how Muslim women dress when they perform salaat, never. most disturbing part, of course, is the prayer. that is the entrance of Qur'an. if i was a non-Muslim i would have never made such a movie. that is an insult to our Holy Book and to our ladies.
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I genuinly did'nt know about the prayer,but the film is about the abuse she suffers from her Husband and Brother and the reasons she left her faith.
I will edit my post to warn that it will offend.
Please be warned,you may find the film offensive,there is'nt any violence but there is some partial nudity and i do not wish to offend.
.lava
Veteran Member
it is OK, normal if you did not know. but, you know, i don't understand something. if it is about women being abused, then why Theo also did not mind to abuse that woman standing nude? isn't it abusive to use nudity of women? you know, women are divine creatures. unfortunately they are either treated like slaves or sex objects. both is sick imo. if we could mix West and East then maybe something balanced could come up.
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I agree about the nudity although i think he was trying to make an Arty statement about it being laid bare,obviously there is a lot of nudity in western media,too much probably so it does'nt offend me but i understand where you are comming from.
I visit France quite a lot and nudity is all over the beaches in the south and nobody takes much notice and i agree that women are divine creatures and i have great respect for them.
Perhaps a balance of East and West morality would be a good thing as you say,who knows ,maybe one day it will happen.