• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Islam is the most misunderstood religion in contemporary society

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
The problem with the idea above is that most Muslims in the world speak languages other than English. Thus most books for mainstream Muslims are not written in English. English books are either written by non Muslims, or to self-consciously improve the image of Islam for Western audience. Hence I have difficulty in trusting these books.

No. Actually you’re lazy because there are a lot of books written by bilingual Muslims. Most interpretations of Islam by these Muslims come from knowledgeable Muslims. I am talking about Oxford University learned scholars. When I first studied Islam I asked Muslims questions, even went to the mosque. If you maintain personal biases without opening your mind up to the slightest possibilities you’ll forever be disappointed.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well you have to wait for his participation but in the mean time, I invite you to watch a couple videos on the inquired subjects you've mentioned.

Women in Islam this is a lecture and a lil bit over an hour but very informative:




I cannot answer why in the context of a Muslim examining why such and such rules appear a certain way, but there are many governments in the Muslim world irrespective of their religious values that are corrupted. None of which from an analysis has to do with religion per se although on the surface it appears this way. May have to do with the continuance of extreme patriarchy and cultural influences that continues to persist.

For example the caste system seems to appear as a Hindu problem when in actuality it is cultural based on European colonialism that has been adopted by the people. This practice is cross-cultural and cross-religious. Looking at the mistreatment of minorities in these sectors must not just include religion, but the compounding societal factors that persist.
I am not going to let many of my people off the hook for adopting and propagating caste system with such enthusiasm.

https://www.firstpost.com/india/cri...ates-for-such-crimes-have-fallen-4419369.html
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
No. Actually you’re lazy because there are a lot of books written by bilingual Muslims. Most interpretations of Islam by these Muslims come from knowledgeable Muslims. I am talking about Oxford University learned scholars. When I first studied Islam I asked Muslims questions, even went to the mosque. If you maintain personal biases without opening your mind up to the slightest possibilities you’ll forever be disappointed.
While true, even this isn't all that helpful as there is no central authority in Islam. Other than the 5 pillars of Islam, Muslims don't agree on a whole lot. In essence, if you don't like what one Imam says, shop around until you find one closer to your thinking.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No. Actually you’re lazy because there are a lot of books written by bilingual Muslims. Most interpretations of Islam by these Muslims come from knowledgeable Muslims. I am talking about Oxford University learned scholars. When I first studied Islam I asked Muslims questions, even went to the mosque. If you maintain personal biases without opening your mind up to the slightest possibilities you’ll forever be disappointed.
I am also aware of the fact that Oxford learned scholars are treated with unbridled hostility and derision by a large part of Muslim (and Hindu, and Christian) communities and are considered Westernized and traitors in league with the colonial powers throughout much of the developing world.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
"The secular mind is deeply entrenched with the idea that Islam is a system of beliefs where fanaticism and moderate devotion to a supernatural deity is indistinguishable."

-Epic Beard Man


I began that quote from listening to an hour and twenty-three minute video of Karen Armstrong giving a lecture regarding the secular views of Islam today. According to Karen Armstrong, the "bed rock message of the Qur'an is it is good to share your wealth fairly, and wrong to horde a private fortune, and the aim of life is to build a just and decent society where vulnerable people are treated with equity and respect." In Ms. Armstrong's lecture, she brings up a good point where in viewing other religions we tend to view them through the lens of Protestant Christianity, where religion is considered as a separate activity. Hence in the west we see Protestant Christianity as a benchmark in which we judge all others. This is why Buddhism and Confucianism are considered "secular ideologies" but according to Armstrong, the Buddha and Confucius would have not understood secularism as we see it.

Unfortunately, throughout the years (actually centuries) Islam has been presented by the west as a blood thirsty religion bent on Holy War, or Jihad to commence the campaign of Dar al-Islam. The western viewpoint of Jihad is the misunderstanding (whether intentional or unintentional) of Quranic interpretation of a holy struggle of the self. Jihad is the constant battle from within and in fact according to Islam, the constant battle from within is the greatest form of Jihad. Jihad appears in the Qur'an only 44 times and in 10 of those does it refer to warfare. Jihad is a struggle. Ms. Armstrong cites some examples regarding what it means to struggle such as for instance it being a struggle to give someone something to eat because they are hungry when you yourself are hungry. Do you give in to your own senses and biological desires or do you transcend beyond that and do the selfless act and give to the starving person.

In the west we turn on our television and watch news outlets of ISIL (or ISIS) or other terrorist organizations who commit acts of violence such as bombings and suicide bombings and the fervor or these groups who vehemently believe what they're doing is for God. It is historical fact that suicide bombings was not invented by Muslim extremists in fact, it was an invention by the Tamil Tigers, an extremely secular organization. According to Armstrong, though we see the early bombings happening in Lebanon committed by Shi'ites, most attacks during the 1980's in Lebanon and Jordan were done by secularists and socialists and secularists from Syria 7 suicide bombings were done by Muslims and 27 were done by secularists. Suicide bombings is strictly unIslamic and many Muslim scholars cite several verses but one verse is more popular when responding to critics concerning suicide bombings:

Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.” (Qur’an, 5:32).

When it comes to violence of this type in looking at the actions of these Muslims who commit these violent acts, we must look at the root cause of these actions. Because what we see are people who believe that their country is invaded by a power more advanced in weaponry than the people. Coupled this with doctrinal ignorance, low education, hopelessness, limited resources, desperation, and a fiery and fanatical Imam, you have a recipe for disaster. There is something inherently wrong when a child who has never lived life expresses glee in the manner that some of these kids do, when they see their violent causes as something for "The Lord of the Worlds." The problem I see when people examine Islam is that we tend to see Islam from a Western perspective. I mean, we do this with a lot of people. Instead of asking why, we need to be asking how? How does the psychopathology of someone who is desperately trying to kill themselves and others develop? Where do people get these ideas?

People do not examine the perspective of the other by stepping outside themselves, and even though some do, they still place their western perspective in scenarios like "even if I was in that situation I would do such and such, and such and such." No, you wouldn't because if you were in that scenario you would not be having a western perspective on life or having the perspective of life that you have now, you'd have their perspective. I tend to ask myself when looking at the violence that is happening in the world in that sector I wonder what is compounding the violent ideologies? I firmly believe it is the socio-political infrastructures that over time have become unstable and paralyzed in time due to a collective effort of outside forces (western influences of warfare e.g. think CIA influence on the Taliban fighting Russians).

When it comes to the religious interpretation of he Qur'an like Judaism and the reading of the Talmud, the Qur'an is read through a filtration system such as the Imam or the Hadith. People often ask "what is the correct interpretation of Islam?" I would answer from an outsider's perspective it depends where you are in the world. For many impoverished Palestinians, their interpretation of Islam is a lot different than the perspective of Muslims who live in Detroit or New York. Just as the perspective of an Irish Christian would be different religiously than the perspective of a Taiwanese Christian. Our environment can be our x-factor in how we see ourselves in the world from a religious perspective.

What is the correct way to look at Islam?

Any faith that promotes good, justice, and equality, and promotes self-growth and excellence and the fair treatment of others which is the baseline of Islam, is the correct way of looking at Islam.

When Muslims disavow the theocratic impulse to implement Sharia Law, and acknowledge that how they treat others must mean how they treat ALL others, not just other Muslims, then and only then can "misunderstanding" and distrust of Muslims be rectified.

All Muslims are expected to jihad for the cause:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

__________________________________________________________________

Sharia Law is as repugnant as the Inquisition. It also employs the doctrine of Taqiyya, which allows Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Banning Sharia doesn't ban Islam, it only prevents the imposition of an Islamic theocracy--the greatest beneficiaries of which ban would be women.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
One thing I have directly observed on a number of occasions, if not consistently, is that an innocent Muslim will begin a thread to explain a particular thing and often make things worse by explaining their position, at length. Most of the time they seem to be utterly unable to see the implications of their own words and cannot think critically or objectively about Islam.

Get into a discussion about Evolution with a Muslim and see just how far you get. If you really want a head turner look into the ludicrous ideas spouted in the myriad of "Scientific miracles in the Qur'an" threads or on authentic Muslim web sites. The thinking demonstrated in such topics is not ennobling of Islamic theology - in the slightest.


There are many Muslims as I have stated in the past that are culturally Muslim but no understanding of the academic/theological material at all
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
They aren't singled out any more than are Catholics, Baptists,
Xian fundies, Mormons, & atheists. All would do well to be
more civil to each other when criticizing beliefs & actions.

Apparently you don’t watch the media Muslims are always talked about. Sad part is that Muslims like Arabs and Indians are always targeted in the U.S.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
When Muslims disavow the theocratic impulse to implement Sharia Law, and acknowledge that how they treat others must mean how they treat ALL others, not just other Muslims, then and only then can "misunderstanding" and distrust of Muslims be rectified.

All Muslims are expected to jihad for the cause:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

__________________________________________________________________

Sharia Law is as repugnant as the Inquisition. It also employs the doctrine of Taqiyya, which allows Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Banning Sharia doesn't ban Islam, it only prevents the imposition of an Islamic theocracy--the greatest beneficiaries of which ban would be women.

I already explained the concept of Jihad or did you overlook that?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I am also aware of the fact that Oxford learned scholars are treated with unbridled hostility and derision by a large part of Muslim (and Hindu, and Christian) communities and are considered Westernized and traitors in league with the colonial powers throughout much of the developing world.

Not according to the Muslims I study...stop assuming and actually do research simply assuming stuff gets you nowhere
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When Muslims disavow the theocratic impulse to implement Sharia Law, and acknowledge that how they treat others must mean how they treat ALL others, not just other Muslims, then and only then can "misunderstanding" and distrust of Muslims be rectified.

All Muslims are expected to jihad for the cause:

Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

__________________________________________________________________

Sharia Law is as repugnant as the Inquisition. It also employs the doctrine of Taqiyya, which allows Muslims to deceive non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam. Banning Sharia doesn't ban Islam, it only prevents the imposition of an Islamic theocracy--the greatest beneficiaries of which ban would be women.
You are mistaken in linking terrorism to Orthodox mainstream Islam.
Pakistan clerics issue fatwa against suicide bombings
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I agree. I've read several of her books and she paints this lovely, glowing picture of Islam and practically drools all over Muhammad. She is simply misinformed or disingenuous - to the extreme. She is probably one of the last people I would seek information on Islam from. She is certainly no scholar and not noted for her historical accuracy. It really shows in what she leaves out. I did giggle a bit when she referred to Muhammad as someone who was occasionally a petty warlord. *snort*

In regards to the OP, the biggest problem is that Islamic literature/scripture is incredibly dense. Reading hadiths can be absolutely mind-numbing, as is reading the endless prattling by clerics who have a penchant for flogging topics to death a billion ways. The real problem is that non-Muslims do not look upon Islam as any kind of beacon of understanding as the Muslim world has lagged behind, in virtually any area you wish to examine, for so long that it's hard to take a religion seriously that has produced such miserable results. Heck, the only reason Islam has gained a resurgence is because many are sitting on large oil deposits that other people have grown addicted to.
"Muslim world has lagged behind, in virtually any area you wish to examine"

1.Identical to what Diego Delanda said about the Mayans in the 15th century.

2.Identical to Larry Krauss, Richard Dawkins, and Christopher Hitchens say today about Christianity,

3.Identical to what Americans said about native Americans as they settled this wild uninhabited country.

Which identical is correct?
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
I am also aware of the fact that Oxford learned scholars are treated with unbridled hostility and derision by a large part of Muslim (and Hindu, and Christian) communities and are considered Westernized and traitors in league with the colonial powers throughout much of the developing world.

Sad part is I gave you a whole video of a popular Imam you haven’t looked at...It makes me question your qualifications as a person of science. Even Neil degrasse Tyson can even look at the historical implications of Islamic society. It is one thing to disagree, it’s another to be blindly dismissive
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
This has nothing to do with Islam
What do you think motivates that violence then?

What bugs me is how consistently we are expected to maintain a very selective sensibility when it comes to Islaam. It is apparently supposed to take all the merit and nothing of the blame for anyone and anything that brands itself as Muslim.

All of those hundreds of millions of people, well over a millenium and hundreds of political leaders to claim Islaamic adherence. And yet the pattern persists.

To top it off, Muslims are actually as frustrated by that as anyone else. Yet we are still expected to protect Islaamic doctrine, particularly in the abstract, from anything resembling actual criticism.

That is, frankly, insane.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Sad part is I gave you a whole video of a popular Imam you haven’t looked at...It makes me question your qualifications as a person of science. Even Neil degrasse Tyson can even look at the historical implications of Islamic society. It is one thing to disagree, it’s another to be blindly dismissive
I can't look at a video right now. Will view later and comment. I am in the middle of shifting houses...
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Wrong. it is not obvious that religions are misunderstood.
This seems to me like a very strange thing to say. It is even often times difficult for two people of the SAME religion to come to terms on specific points of their shared faith without arguing the point and walking away thinking one another "apostates." Hell - that is THE reason behind there being so many "denominations" of Christianity, or sects/branches of Islam in the first place. It would be hilarious... that is, if there weren't so many real-world consequences to be had for this kind of obvious misunderstanding.
 
I already explained the concept of Jihad or did you overlook that?

You did somewhat gloss over the fact that, historically and theologically, it has very much meant holy war.

While it can also mean what you noted, there is a very significant tradition of jihad as warfare in the Islamic tradition.

Jihad: Struggle, or striving, but often understood both within the Muslim tradition and beyond it as warfare against infidels...

Also, the phrases denoting the “greater” jihād (i.e. one’s personal struggle to be a better Mus- lim) that are common in later literature, namely, “struggle of the self ” ( jihād al-nafs)or “struggle with the devil” ( jihād al-shayān, see devil), do not occur in the Qurān...

Very little of the peaceful sense of j-h-d remained in Muslim culture and the understanding of jihād as war became predominant. Nevertheless, there are verses in the Qurān that attest to other significations. The best example is q 22:78. By linguistic and contextual criteria, the phrase “exert yourself in the way of God as is his right” (wa-jāhidū fī llāhi aqqa jihādihi)clearly does not refer to warfare, but to other forms of effort made by way of obedience to God...

In the same vein, q 49:15 deals with definitions of belief and the phrase “those who strive”(alladhīna... jāhadū) apparently refers not to warriors but to those who perform all the divine ordinances (cf. Bayāwī, Anwār, ii,277). Yet many commentators (including al-abarī, d. 310⁄923) insist that in these two cases the term refers to participation in warfare.

The warlike meaning of jihād thus predominates, to the extent that q-t-l, “kill,” was sometimes glossed by j-h-d (e.g. Bayāwī, Anwār, i, 105, ad q 2:190). This predominance is perhaps to be explained by the fact that in this sense of “war,” jihād was given a legal definition, legal categories and regulations, aspects which were discussed at length by the jurists (who often, however, used the term siyar instead of jihād). Also the parallelism between the qurānic phrases jihād “in the way of God”( fī sabīli llāh) and qitāl “in the way of God” may have contributed to the equation ofj-h-d with terms of warfare. In fact the phrase “in the way of God” itself came to mean “warfare against infidels,” although it is not necessarily so in the Qurān.

Finally, the origins of the notion of the sacredness of Islamic warfare should be mentioned. Although jihād and warfare are disparate concepts, only partly overlap- ping, both are endowed with sanctity. The sanctity of jihād was discussed above. The sacredness of warfare derives, first, from the causative link between warfare on the one hand, and divine command and divine decree on the other. Another source is the association of warfare with divine reward and punishment. The roles of warring as a divine test and as a pledge that the believ- ers give to God (q 33:15, 23) add another dimension to the sacredness of warfare. Finally, God’s direct intervention in the military exploits of his community sanctifies these exploits (Encyclopedia of the Quran Vol 3 - Brill)



 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
To be fair, although the text probably hasn't changed, there's lots of interpretations. It's difficult to know how much people are aware of these things, since what most people hear are the harshest aspects... But even smaller issues can be a HUGE blown out of proportion problem to some.

Here's a few examples:
-On the subject of homosexual relations, I've heard everything from "it doesn't matter what they do in the privacy of their home, only Allah will judge" to "it's a sin and they have to be punished".
-With women, from "you don't beat them, the words mean to separate" to "light beating" (as it's often translated" to just "beating".
-Other religions, from "only Allah can judge/they're good people so maybe they can get into heaven/if they haven't heard (good evidence) about Islam" to "all kafirs go to hell".
-Another problem I encountered is that Muslim women are told to not marry non-Muslim men. I've personally heard from "it's ok, he is a good person and believes in god" to "you HAVE to divorce him if he doesn't convert".
-Even simple things like drawing, listening to music, and such is a huge issue to some... I've seen people being haram police online and in real life.
-Personally, I'm not very conventional. I tend to be quite out of the norm, not because I want to be "special" or "rebellious". I just am myself. In western culture, some people might be judgemental, but most decent people don't care unless you're the one pushing your views on them. But I get the impression that the culture of Islam is very conformist. Just one example, might be like personal style preferences or lifestyle choices like not having children.

Obviously I favour a kind approach, but it's sometimes attacked online as being wrong or blasphemous. Honestly the hostility I encountered is partially responsible for me turning away from Islam. Yeah I could have focused on the kindness, but I felt as if when I did, I was always wrong and making innovations... That I wasn't a real Muslim. I felt incredibly alone.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
To be fair, although the text probably hasn't changed, there's lots of interpretations. It's difficult to know how much people are aware of these things, since what most people hear are the harshest aspects... But even smaller issues can be a HUGE blown out of proportion problem to some.

Here's a few examples:
-On the subject of homosexual relations, I've heard everything from "it doesn't matter what they do in the privacy of their home, only Allah will judge" to "it's a sin and they have to be punished".
-With women, from "you don't beat them, the words mean to separate" to "light beating" (as it's often translated" to just "beating".
-Other religions, from "only Allah can judge/they're good people so maybe they can get into heaven/if they haven't heard (good evidence) about Islam" to "all kafirs go to hell".
-Another problem I encountered is that Muslim women are told to not marry non-Muslim men. I've personally heard from "it's ok, he is a good person and believes in god" to "you HAVE to divorce him if he doesn't convert".
-Even simple things like drawing, listening to music, and such is a huge issue to some... I've seen people being haram police online and in real life.
-Personally, I'm not very conventional. I tend to be quite out of the norm, not because I want to be "special" or "rebellious". I just am myself. In western culture, some people might be judgemental, but most decent people don't care unless you're the one pushing your views on them. But I get the impression that the culture of Islam is very conformist. Just one example, might be like personal style preferences or lifestyle choices like not having children.

Obviously I favour a kind approach, but it's sometimes attacked online as being wrong or blasphemous. Honestly the hostility I encountered is partially responsible for me turning away from Islam. Yeah I could have focused on the kindness, but I felt as if when I did, I was always wrong and making innovations... That I wasn't a real Muslim. I felt incredibly alone.
Very well put. Sadly, Islam is not all peace, love and beards.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
What do you think motivates that violence then?

I made this abundantly clear in the beginning. There are compounding elements that contribute to the violent by nature of people. It is a cyclical affect such as poverty and low resources not to mention education with all three what is left? Religion.

Put everyone in a box and include religion people desperate enough will qualify a verse to justify violent behavior even if it is contrary to the core principles. For example, there are many gang members in the city where I live that believe in Christ but they sell drugs and shoot at people.

Hell, Mexicans in their traditions at known to be extra religious, even praying to saints, but that doesn'twhere them from killing. People are violent because they live in a system where they are not conditioned to choose otherwise nor are they educated to pick alternatives.

I am living in a western society I am fortunate enough to have an education which allows me to expand my mind and think outside the box. Many Muslims cannot due to their own personal issues such as infighting and other socio-political issues.

Similar with bloods and crips here....People here ask why do they have infighting such as crips fighting crips and bloods fighting bloods and the question of why they are violent.

Same reason.. extraneous variables that influence people to be violent such as resources like drugs, drug induce violence. Bloods and Crips don’t fight because of red and blue they fight because of variables.
 
Top